Did Lisa's Mom do it? Poll

[Whocanitbenow]

I think having a drink or two with dinner and maintaining your ability to check on THREE kids you are in charge of, and getting tanked to the point you don't remember if you checked on them or not, are two different things. Getting a baby sitter and going out, having drinks till midnight or 2 a.m., not a big deal - what Deborah did would not pass muster if you were hring a babysitter, would it??

Seriously, if the babysitter you were about to leave your three kids with, one an infant, told you she was going to drink to the point of blacking out....or just to the point of "drunk", would you leave the kids and feel good about it?

I never said the "creep" is off the hook and I don't believe the "creep" should be off the hook. Sort of like if I leave my purse in my car with money hanging out of it and someone breaks in and steals it, I'm at fault AS WELL as the theif - we are both equally as stupid.

If someone comes in the night and takes your child, No one is guilty but them. I agree getting drunk is not in the good mom code, But still does not give someone the right to come and steal a baby. None of us moms are perfect, Maybe we would like people to believe it but we have all had those bad parent moments. Problem for DB is the whole world knows.

 

[Darcyline]

Just curious-how many moms or dads here have done something similar? I keep seeing it being posed as a mistake or sometimes it happens type deal. I am trying to imagine it in my case and if I came home after 8 or 12 hours away and my husband was blacked out in the bedroom from drinking and our three children including sick baby hadn't been checked on the entire time I would probably 1. Think he had a serious drinking problem and 2. Not feel comfortable leaving my children alone with him again at least until after he got help for the drinking problem.
Is that an overreaction and it is an understandable mistake?

 

[Abby Normal]

Originally Posted by Chewy
With all due respect, your opinion of yourself as a woman has absolutely NOTHING to do with our obligation to responsibly care for or provide care for a child you have brought into the world.

The child did not ask to be born of a woman who is confused as to why his or her existence requires sacrifice and maturity. Arguments about gender roles, social issues, feminist theory are time wasting social constructs that are completely and totally unrelated to the fact of a child that is born needed to be properly cared for by a woman or a man who understands that at that point the priority of the child will always outweigh the need for a debate over nonsense.

If you have a child, take care of your child. It ain't rocket science.

ITA. Not every woman has the capacity or a role model to help her become a good mother--just as some men don't have good role models for fathehood-- and we are seeing the outcome in these horrific cases of child abuse and neglect.

I'm stunned at those who think we shouldn't harshly judge a woman for creating an unhealthy home environment by parking children in front of a video or in her crib while Mom gets wasted on the front stoop and forgets about them.

JMO

Personally, I think it's horrible to plant your kids and get drunk without anyone to tend to them.

But the post you agreed with didn't speak negatively of those mothers who plant their kids and get drunk.

It spoke poorly of mothers who are socially aware. :waitasec: It was confusing women who care about social issues with women who abuse or neglect their children, or at least are confused. Which is obviously baseless. I STRONGLY suspect that DB wasn't contemplating gender roles, social issues, OR feminist theory when she got wasted.

:twocents:

I'm just saying (generally) that we should stay on topic of baby Lisa, not random misconceptions of women who dare to think a little bit.

 

[Abby Normal]

Just curious-how many moms or dads here have done something similar? I keep seeing it being posed as a mistake or sometimes it happens type deal. I am trying to imagine it in my case and if I came home after 8 or 12 hours away and my husband was blacked out in the bedroom from drinking and our three children including sick baby hadn't been checked on the entire time I would probably 1. Think he had a serious drinking problem and 2. Not feel comfortable leaving my children alone with him again at least until after he got help for the drinking problem.
Is that an overreaction and it is an understandable mistake?

Yeah... that would NOT go well. :furious:

 

[Abby Normal]

No offense taken at all.

For the record, though, before people take off with this... I don't equate womanhood with motherhood. I'm frustrated and sickened by the number of comments I've seen all over the internet that attempt to justify the concept of drunken "adult time" for a lone mother after the kids are in bed. No matter what other roles she chooses to take on for herself, a mother is never really off duty, and absolutely not when she's failed to make other arrangements for her children's care. Yet I am seeing it from DB and all over the internet in the wake of this case: "Don't judge her! She is more than a mother. She is a person. She is entitled to and needs her 'me time'".

IMO, this mindset that led to a lost baby Lisa is the same mindset that leaves Madeleine alone in a hotel room while her parents dine out, or Caylee drugged to sleep while mom parties, or Gabriel's dead, blue body in a dumpster. It's a selfish sense of entitlement and a shirking of maternal responsibility that is bred of a number of causes, many of them (IMO) societal. It is the opposite of motherhood, it seems to be pervasive, and it is hurting our children and damaging society.

My list of contributing factors was not meant to be exhaustive or in any particular order, and I understand that theories and constructs can be abused and taken to extremes that were never intended by their founders. It's kind of like introducing the non-native kudzu vine to our gardens in my area. In the beginning, it looked great and everybody enjoyed the new and exotic landscape. But then it took on a life of its own, overgrew the native plants, choking and smothering them, damaging the area's natural ecosystem... and we are left struggling to pull the natural order out its wreckage.

Agree- there is nothing wrong with adult time, when you've properly arranged a transfer of responsibility onto someone else while you enjoy it. Honestly, even then I don't really get the need to get drunk, I hate the feeling of that. But to each their own when you responsibly arrange it like an adult, right?

I couple glasses of wine, while remaining fully functional, is another thing to me. That doesn't phase me.

 

[stilettos]

:rocker:

Just curious-how many moms or dads here have done something similar? I keep seeing it being posed as a mistake or sometimes it happens type deal. I am trying to imagine it in my case and if I came home after 8 or 12 hours away and my husband was blacked out in the bedroom from drinking and our three children including sick baby hadn't been checked on the entire time I would probably 1. Think he had a serious drinking problem and 2. Not feel comfortable leaving my children alone with him again at least until after he got help for the drinking problem.
Is that an overreaction and it is an understandable mistake?

...3) He could get help for his drinking problem after he got up from his *advertiser censored**whipping.

Sorry but no one puts my kids at risk.:rocker:

I have no problem with a glass or two of wine...more than that, you be responsible and have a sober responsible sitter.

 

[Darcyline]

Ha ha true-after checking on the kids I might strangle him and THEN get him help for his problem.

I guess I am just mildly surprised though how people are acting like it is a really common not that serious wee little mistake every parent makes. I know no one is perfect, but surely there is a spectrum between perfection and blacked out drunk for a good part of the day while multiple small children depend on you solely??

 

[Turnadot]

I notice you start a lot of sarcastic posts and then turn around and say you were sorry and you don't mean it etc.

No, I never apologise for anything I post. Never. I mean everything I say, though I obviously need to work on HOW I say it, because I do realise that I often come off as abrasive online, but I never mean to hurt feelings, or mean to attack anyone and THAT abrasiveness is what I end up having to apologise for, though I do realise it's my own fault for not taking better care with my posts, which I am working on by learning better English skills.

 

[Turnadot]

This is not about anyone's uterus, position in life nor their "womanhood".

My post was. It had nothing to do with this case at all, I was just sharing personal feelings wrt womanhood.

 

[southern_comfort]

Personally, I think it's horrible to plant your kids and get drunk without anyone to tend to them.

But the post you agreed with didn't speak negatively of those mothers who plant their kids and get drunk.

It spoke poorly of mothers who are socially aware. :waitasec: It was confusing women who care about social issues with women who abuse or neglect their children, or at least are confused. Which is obviously baseless. I STRONGLY suspect that DB wasn't contemplating gender roles, social issues, OR feminist theory when she got wasted.

:twocents:

I'm just saying (generally) that we should stay on topic of baby Lisa, not random misconceptions of women who dare to think a little bit.

My post wasn't confusing women who abuse children with those who are socially aware. I have no idea whether DB, for instance, is socially aware. My post touched upon the social forces that have helped mold our society into one where a mother getting black-out drunk while responsible for children is defensible because women deserve their "me time". That doesn't happen in a vacuum.

 

[Peepers]

Im still on the fence, its possible the drinking, blacked out story is just a cover up or its possible, she passed out and has no idea what happened.
The problem I have with the drinking is this...if she were to be crying and carrying on and saying how she feels so guilty, if only she hadn't drank so much she would know what happened, etc..I think that would be more believable than her defending her drinking.That is really disturbing! If she was drunk and did something to the baby, she wouldnt be able to cover it so well being drunk. If she is a drinker, she probably has a high tolerance for the wine, and since she shared it with the neighbors, maybe she wasnt that drunk.
I just dont know, but one thing I do think, if the parents or Mom did something to the baby, she is not too far away.

 

[Peepers]

I have plenty of experience with drunks and they do defend their drinking. They always think they are smarter and the exception to getting in an accident or something happening.

 

[vlpate]

If someone comes in the night and takes your child, No one is guilty but them. I agree getting drunk is not in the good mom code, But still does not give someone the right to come and steal a baby. None of us moms are perfect, Maybe we would like people to believe it but we have all had those bad parent moments. Problem for DB is the whole world knows.

Please copy and bold the part of my post where I said the intruder, if there was indeed, an intruder, would not be responsible?? Thanks

How about we look at it another way. Say mom is passed out cold, the 8 year old wants to make something to eat. He starts the wrong burner and lights the pan with the leftover bacon grease. House catches fire, the other boy and the baby dies. Who's responsible? The eight year old? Heck no, mom is squarely to blame and will likely be prosecuted and the other boy taken away. This has nothing to do with an intruder or a baby taken or not taken - this has to do with letting a 6 yr. old and an 8 yr. old fin for themselves while you have "adult" time.

It's carp and anyone who is any kind of mom has to see that.

 

[vlpate]

I have plenty of experience with drunks and they do defend their drinking. They always think they are smarter and the exception to getting in an accident or something happening.

Exactly, my daughter's father was a die hard drunk. When they have to choose they choose the drink....and it does NOT mean they love their kids less, it just means they NEED the drink more.

He's been dead 12 years. Died trying to work off the alcohol binge on a treadmill. He never made it to the floor alive.

I asked my daughter when she was about 6 if her daddy was drinking and drivng when she was with him. She said, "no mommy, he only drinks at lights and stop signs". I swear to G-d, that was how he manipulated her into thinking it was alright and she could be with him when he would drink and drive.

I've a lot of empathy for drunks because I know it's a disease, but it doesn't make the lessons they are forced to learn any less real and devastating.

 

[MsMacGyver]

Kinda like you would want to crawl across the table and choke the dog poop out of LE if they were more focused on YOU as a suspect, than finding the REAL suspect?

So go ahead a choke me .. nobody knows what has been said, what trusts have been violated, what accusations were made, etc. Let's pretend for a minute that DB is completely innocent (albeit not the best parent in the world) .... LE is not her friend at this point, are they? They, the media, US are all focused on her. IF she were innocent .. that is a HORRIBLE place to be...

(Having stated that, I am sliding off the fence on the side of her guilt ...)

If LE were more focused on me while neglecting to continue searching for my child, yes..I would want to choke the doggy poop out of them. Thankfully in this case their covering all bases.......:rocker:

I agree, if she is totally innocent she is in a terrible place but not as terrible as Lisa. In my opinion LE should be Lisa's friend, the victim in this case. Mom's the adult, not the victim. We know exactly where she's at. If DB can't handle the scrutiny she might want to consider declining media appearances, start talking to LE and start participating in the search for her baby.......:banghead:

It's true that the media and the public are focused on the mom and there's a reason for that. If she would have worried more about her missing child and less about divulging the fact she had been drinking, imagine how much valuable time could have been saved. Myself I'm still not convinced she was drunk. After two weeks she decides to come clean AFTER the lawyer enters the picture........:twocents:

The media replayed the lawyers statement tonight. He stated that these parents are grieving the loss of their child. He stumbles through this statement and tries to recover by saying hopefully Lisa will return home safe and in good health...Oops.....:waitasec:

My statement about choking was directed at the media, not anyone on this thread. That would be rude not to mention against the rules of etiquette...:nono:

JMO...:heartbeat:

 

[Peepers]

Exactly, my daughter's father was a die hard drunk. When they have to choose they choose the drink....and it does NOT mean they love their kids less, it just means they NEED the drink more.

He's been dead 12 years. Died trying to work off the alcohol binge on a treadmill. He never made it to the floor alive.

I asked my daughter when she was about 6 if her daddy was drinking and drivng when she was with him. She said, "no mommy, he only drinks at lights and stop signs". I swear to G-d, that was how he manipulated her into thinking it was alright and she could be with him when he would drink and drive.

I've a lot of empathy for drunks because I know it's a disease, but it doesn't make the lessons they are forced to learn any less real and devastating.

Triple thanks!!! Perfect description of the manipulation and lessons!

 

[Whocanitbenow]

Please copy and bold the part of my post where I said the intruder, if there was indeed, an intruder, would not be responsible?? Thanks

How about we look at it another way. Say mom is passed out cold, the 8 year old wants to make something to eat. He starts the wrong burner and lights the pan with the leftover bacon grease. House catches fire, the other boy and the baby dies. Who's responsible? The eight year old? Heck no, mom is squarely to blame and will likely be prosecuted and the other boy taken away. This has nothing to do with an intruder or a baby taken or not taken - this has to do with letting a 6 yr. old and an 8 yr. old fin for themselves while you have "adult" time.

It's carp and anyone who is any kind of mom has to see that.

Now see, It seems like you are taking a shot at my mothering... Not going to react because I see you are worked up about this.
You are talking about 2 different things. Someone taking a child, And a child being hurt because their mother was not attentive.
My point is moms make mistakes every day. My point is that if someone took the child, They are solely responsible. No ifs ands or buts.

Maybe she isn't drinking, Someone comes for the baby and she gets killed trying to stop them? I am not excusing her drinking. Not for a minute, I just don't believe that adds to her guilt.

 

[Turnadot]

My post wasn't confusing women who abuse children with those who are socially aware. I have no idea whether DB, for instance, is socially aware. My post touched upon the social forces that have helped mold our society into one where a mother getting black-out drunk while responsible for children is defensible because women deserve their "me time". That doesn't happen in a vacuum.

Who is actually defending it aside from DB though?

 

[vlpate]

Im still on the fence, its possible the drinking, blacked out story is just a cover up or its possible, she passed out and has no idea what happened.
The problem I have with the drinking is this...if she were to be crying and carrying on and saying how she feels so guilty, if only she hadn't drank so much she would know what happened, etc..I think that would be more believable than her defending her drinking.That is really disturbing! If she was drunk and did something to the baby, she wouldnt be able to cover it so well being drunk. If she is a drinker, she probably has a high tolerance for the wine, and since she shared it with the neighbors, maybe she wasnt that drunk.
I just dont know, but one thing I do think, if the parents or Mom did something to the baby, she is not too far away.

Does anyone know if there was wine left. Didn't she tell MK that they drank the entire box? To me, in the video of her leaving the store, it looked like a 5ltr Franzia - which contains about 33 glasses of wine. The 3ltr contains about 20. So either way, that's a lot of wine to consume in one sitting - sheesh, say she had 8 glasses (I'll meet her halfway on the 5-10), that means if she went in at 10:30, and she started drinking at 6:00, that's about two glasses per hour...only a true drinker, IMO, could do that. almost 2 bottles of wine on her own... in 4 hours. I'm not sure it's enough to make a person black out though.

So if it was a 5ltr, who drank the other 25 glasses? The neighbor?

 

[vlpate]

Now see, It seems like you are taking a shot at my mothering... Not going to react because I see you are worked up about this.
You are talking about 2 different things. Someone taking a child, And a child being hurt because their mother was not attentive.
My point is moms make mistakes every day. My point is that if someone took the child, They are solely responsible. No ifs ands or buts.

Maybe she isn't drinking, Someone comes for the baby and she gets killed trying to stop them? I am not excusing her drinking. Not for a minute, I just don't believe that adds to her guilt.

I'm not taking a shot at your mothering. I'm stating my opininion and my use of the word you is in general.

I do not opine about the poster, only the post.