Did the jury get it wrong, or...

[Baznme]

The Orange county medical examiner testified that the manner of death was homicide. She further testified that because she only had skeletal remains, it was impossible to be any more specific that HOMICIDE generally. This is a reasonable believable FACT. If it wasn't homicide, there is no rational reason, the little remains would have been thrown in the swamp. It was not necessary for the prosecution to prove EXACT cause of death, the time, place, exact method, any of that. That was explained in the judge's instructions of circumstantial evident, reasonable doubt and in the listed elements of the crime. What is the REASONABLE doubt that homicide was not proven? There was speculation that this was an accident, SPECULATIVE doubt, but there was no proof of an accident and, in fact, there was substantial proof against an accident. 911 was not called. The baby was not taken to paramedics or a hospital for resuscitation. Her little body was abandoned in a swamp, not buried in a grave in a cemetery or cremated in a funeral home. Her mother never acknowledged her death, claimed an accident (until trial). I still don't understand what reasonable doubt the jury had. Even the defense attorneys seemed shocked when the jury acquitted her. We don't want innocent people in jail for crimes they didn't commit, but our system should be able to convict the guilty. It sure failed us this time. There was massive evidence in this case. Somehow, this jury seemed to want to see the killing on video.

Yup, if they had that.....it would have been easy. They apparantly don't like to read.

 

[stilettos]

Let's take the issue of having to deal with the DP off the table. That seemed to be the paramount deterrant if I'm hearing the jurors right that are talking to the media. They had the lesser charges they could have opted for. They admittedly DID NOT review the evidence. Had they done so, the likelihood of all 12 arriving at the decision they did within 11 hours would not have been possible. Let's face it, if the jury didn't feel they needed to refer to the court records, they failed to do their job correctly. They also did not heed the judge's instructions. Review the evidence and use common sense. IMO, neither happened with this jury. If they didn't understand the scientific evidence, all they had to do was ask questions. They did not.

That being said, in all fairness, I doubt the Judge EVER thought he would end up with 12 not guilty votes. As time goes on and they see and hear all the dirty details of everything that transpired with the 31 days embedded in the history of that, there's not much doubt in my mind they will at some point regret their method of arriving at their decision. That's something I wouldn't want to live with but, on the other hand, I have to face the fact our system is not perfect. I'm just so sad that no one has had to answer for this horrible crime.

It is my understanding that they did not even take the time to read the charging instructions which could have *advertiser censored*isted their understanding :banghead: in the lesser includeds not being DP charges. How much simpler do these people need it?

 

[Baznme]

From the transcript of the Piers Morgan show last night:

ROBIN SAX, ATTORNEY:

"But I think the key problem here is that this is the case for professional juries, if I've ever seen it. That same sick feeling that they don't get the law. Circumstantial evidence is as good of evidence as any.

Short of having a video camera, we have to put things together based on stringing evidence, connecting dots. And that juror number three that you had on earlier today also made the comment she didn't think that she would have to go through the work -- or the jury didn't feel like they should have to go through the work of connecting the dots.

That's exactly what they're supposed to do. If they don't know what they're supposed to do, then there is a problem with our jurors. "

Just unbelievable isn't it! In my opinion they underestimated the importance & value of circumstantial evidence.

That's what I mean. Her statement is absolutely contradictory to what she was there for.

 

[noseyone]

Where's the kid? State of Flordia, 12 Jurors say it is NOT necessary to be responsible for your own child! This is my opinion! For anyone that says I have to have, or show respect for this Jury, please stop saying so. This "Jury" was worse than the ones seated for the O.J. trial. They have proven without a doubt that Juries do NOT work! By their own words, they did not look at the evidence, and did exactly what they were told they were not supposed to do. They used their emotions, personal feelings, conjecture, and complete Fantasy to decide a verdict. They did not review the Actual Evidence. There is NO reason they can give that warrants my respect for them not taking the time to review the evidence in this case. There is no reason they can give that would cause me to listen to them, and their feable attempts to explain the unexplainable. They failed by not following the LAW as they were instructed. We should beable to overturn this Juries verdict, based on them not following the Law!
Through out this trial I have learned that, Jurors are not held responsible for not following the law, in a Court of Law. That perjury is acceptable. That you can lie on the witness stand, no problem!!! The more far fetched the lie, the better! That your kid can come up missing, and you don't have to report it at all!!! What a great Country we live in.
MOO

 

[liltexans]

I'm so sorry for your loss..I remember reading the story at the time...maybe WS can start a topic for her..

We have a thread for Zaylee Grace Fryar. I'm assuming this is who you're talking about. Zaylee's mother was tragically found deceased in the Cumberland River. Zaylee has not yet been found.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135801"]TN TN-AMBER ALERT: Zaylee Grace Fryar, 4 mths, Millersville, 1 May 2011 -mother deceased - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

 

[yolorado]

The juror's DP comments scare me too. They were NOT deciding death in that phase of deliberations. Did they not get that? Also, how is it not child abuse to not call 911 (if the jury was coming at this as though it was an accident)? I just have no idea what their reasoning was...except I don't think there was much reasoning. I suspect, personally, based of various life experiences of mind, that this verdict is probably a result of the opinion, prejudice or bias of one or more group leaders, adopted by all in a manner of group think as a result of these people being sequestered together for over a month. MO, sequestration sometimes produces a one-minded group in the jury room rather than 12 individuals. Seems like a plausible explanation in this case. One person or small group wanted NO doubts for conviction and swayed they others to that point of view. Although, the alternates are saying it too. Don't get what jury instructions these people heard. Professional juries may need to be the answer.

 

[rbrnmw2]

I watched Piers last night too and that is also what I heard. Did you catch when he was speaking with the 2 female prosecutors and they said how the jury expected the prosecution to answer all the questions for them? They essentially said that it was a jury's job to connect the dots and listen to all the evidence to do that. They talked about the misconception of circumstantial evidence in these cases as though it weakens it.
If I can find a clip of it I will post it here. I have been trying to respect the jury's verdict but I just can't when they apparently did not understand all the facts of the case or what their job was.

Here is what I don't get out of 12 people different age ranges, you would think 1 of these people would say hey if we don't understand the instructions let's ask the judge to explain the parts we don't understand. Really this is beyond comprehension there was an American Government TEACHER there? All my teachers told me if you don't know ask if they didn't have the answer they would find it? sorry I know I'm rambling I haven't been able to sleep or eat much since this travesty was announced.

 

[Baznme]

Where's the kid? State of Flordia, 12 Jurors say it is NOT necessary to be responsible for your own child! This is my opinion! For anyone that says I have to have, or show respect for this Jury, please stop saying so. This "Jury" was worse than the ones seated for the O.J. trial. They have proven without a doubt that Juries do NOT work! By their own words, they did not look at the evidence, and did exactly what they were told they were not supposed to do. They used their emotions, personal feelings, conjecture, and complete Fantasy to decide a verdict. They did not review the Actual Evidence. There is NO reason they can give that warrants my respect for them not taking the time to review the evidence in this case. There is no reason they can give that would cause me to listen to them, and their feable attempts to explain the unexplainable. They failed by not following the LAW as they were instructed. We should beable to overturn this Juries verdict, based on them not following the Law!
Through out this trial I have learned that, Jurors are not held responsible for not following the law, in a Court of Law. That perjury is acceptable. That you can lie on the witness stand, no problem!!! The more far fetched the lie, the better! That your kid can come up missing, and you don't have to report it at all!!! What a great Country we live in.
MOO

That your kid can come up missing, you don't have to report it OR explain why she ended up in the swamp with duct tape on her face, wrapped in her favorite blanket and you have the death banded hair in your trunk! Unbelievable!!!

 

[kimmera]

I have to say that I do not believe that the jury did what was asked of them. I am getting a little miffed at all of the TH's that are now saying, 'how dare anyone question these people? They did their civic duty'. Well, it is very clear from the ones that have spoken already, that they did not follow the instructions of the court, and that is part of that civic duty.

First, we have the alternate (that was not in on the deliberations) stating 'WE believed'...Who, exactly is the 'we' if not the rest of the jurors, who were instructed EVERY SINGLE DAY to not discuss the case between themselves. It is obvious that that is what happened.

Both the alternate and #3 have stated that they didn't find enough evidence to support putting someone to death. AGAIN, the judge's instructions were very clear that they were not to discuss the punishment during the guilt phase of the trial, but they obviously did.

Then we have #3 saying that they did not think that she is innocent, and would have voted guilty for a lesser crime. WTH? This statement alone makes me question the level of cognitive reasoning of this panel, since they apparently completely missed the fact that there were lesser charges on the table. :banghead: She, along with some others, didn't take a single note throughout the trial. This indicates that she probably had her mind made up from the DT OS, which once again, the judge warned was NOT to be considered evidence.

Out of 300 evidence exhibits, this jury did not feel the need to look at a single one. Out of 33 days of testimony, this jury did not feel the need to hear or view any of it a second time. Even though we are being told that they would have voted guilty for a lesser charge, this jury didn't ask a single question to ask for clarification of the charges. And then to add insult to injury, this jury devoted less than one hour a piece to the deliberation process. They did not honestly consider the evidence as they were charged to do, IMO.

I cannot help but feel that the process broke down in this case. I don't feel that this jury did their duty, and that is an abomination, IMO. I wonder how they will feel when ICA murders her next victim? :twocents:

 

[BOZGAL]

THIS JURY GOT IT SO WRONG :banghead:

I can say that with a totally open mind as I have followed cases for close to 30 years and many times have been on the defense side if things were not handled properly during the trial. But this is not the darn case here.

There was obviously JURY MISCONDUCT IN THE 1ST DEGREE in this case and I hope each and every juror wakes up nightly with the vivid image of Caylee's skull wrapped with duct tape.

jmho

 

[nomoresorrow]

Where's the kid? State of Flordia, 12 Jurors say it is NOT necessary to be responsible for your own child! This is my opinion! For anyone that says I have to have, or show respect for this Jury, please stop saying so. This "Jury" was worse than the ones seated for the O.J. trial. They have proven without a doubt that Juries do NOT work! By their own words, they did not look at the evidence, and did exactly what they were told they were not supposed to do. They used their emotions, personal feelings, conjecture, and complete Fantasy to decide a verdict. They did not review the Actual Evidence. There is NO reason they can give that warrants my respect for them not taking the time to review the evidence in this case. There is no reason they can give that would cause me to listen to them, and their feable attempts to explain the unexplainable. They failed by not following the LAW as they were instructed. We should beable to overturn this Juries verdict, based on them not following the Law!
Through out this trial I have learned that, Jurors are not held responsible for not following the law, in a Court of Law. That perjury is acceptable. That you can lie on the witness stand, no problem!!! The more far fetched the lie, the better! That your kid can come up missing, and you don't have to report it at all!!! What a great Country we live in.
MOO

Totally agree with you noseyone, and to add to that (if you don't mind), based on everything I've heard so far, it sounds as though they saw this as a dysfunctional family where something (?) happened but it's a "family matter" so they pulled the ol' "pull down the blinds and turn up the tv" like so many do when they see/hear a child being abused. They didn't have the courage to stand up and say "NO, this is not a "family matter, it's a societal matter and a it's crime." Instead of seeing this for the crime it was, they acted like they were intruding into the Anthony's personal family business. The same mentality that has led to so many children's abuse being ignored and ultimately resulting in their death. That attitude by the jurors is the same attitude that JB has consistently put across; "Go away, there's no story here." Well he's wrong and this jury was wrong. There is a story here about a little girl who, by no fault of her own, was born into a dysfunctional and was murdered by her mother! And THAT is NOT a personal family matter! These jurors didn't do their job as jurors, they did what so many do everyday in neighborhoods all across this country, they looked away. And for that I can never forgive them.
JMO~

 

[noseyone]

Listen y'all... when a skull is found with duct tape around it, stuck to the hair, you know there's been a murder and that's how death came about. Physical evidence. Proof. End of story.

Those jurors were looking for surveillance video of KC putting the duct tape around Caylee and throwing her in the woods. They didn't have that surveillance video, so they voted not guilty.

Thank You so much for this. There was so much evidence presented by the State, and only Fantasy, and Conjecture by the defense. Than to top it off, we have a Jury that did not look at any evidence throughout the trial, and none at all during deliberations. Wouldn't it be great if Prosecutors always had the murderers on video, no need for a Jury at all.
This is my opinion only, but I say lets let everyone out of Prison. We have proven wthout a shadow of doubt that our legal system does NOT work! We let another Guilty Murderer go free, yet we will put a man behind bars for 3-5yrs for having 1.1 oz of Marijiuana. There is NO justice in our justice system, that is why Lady Justice is blind folded. MOO

 

[technicalconfusion]

Here is what I don't get out of 12 people different age ranges, you would think 1 of these people would say hey if we don't understand the instructions let's ask the judge to explain the parts we don't understand. Really this is beyond comprehension there was an American Government TEACHER there? All my teachers told me if you don't know ask if they didn't have the answer they would find it? sorry I know I'm rambling I haven't been able to sleep or eat much since this travesty was announced.

This is what scared me.

 

[noseyone]

Totally agree with you noseyone, and to add to that (if you don't mind), based on everything I've heard so far, it sounds as though they saw this as a dysfunctional family where something (?) happened but it's a "family matter" so they pulled the ol' "pull down the blinds and turn up the tv" like so many do when they see/hear a child being abused. They didn't have the courage to stand up and say "NO, this is not a "family matter, it's a societal matter and a it's crime." Instead of seeing this for the crime it was, they acted like they were intruding into the Anthony's personal family business. The same mentality that has led to so many children's abuse being ignored and ultimately resulting in their death. That attitude by the jurors is the same attitude that JB has consistently put across; "Go away, there's no story here." Well he's wrong and this jury was wrong. There is a story here about a little girl who, by no fault of her own, was born into a dysfunctional and was murdered by her mother! And THAT is NOT a personal family matter! These jurors didn't do their job as jurors, they did what so many do everyday in neighborhoods all across this country, they looked away. And for that I can never forgive them.
JMO~[/QUOTE

Thank you also, this is very well said!

 

[Solange82200]

I told you I was senile. And in shock. My granddaughter and great-granddaughter went missing on or about 5/1/2011, not 'memorial day weekend'. My great-granddaughter was named Zaylee. Caylee with a Z.

Im so sorry, I meant to tell you I am so sorry for your loss. You are a strong person to go through this, I dont know how you do it. Thank you for sharing the story with us, its important for us to realize how many more victims of crimes there are out there and they not be forgotten

 

[natsound]

Thank You so much for this. There was so much evidence presented by the State, and only Fantasy, and Conjecture by the defense. Than to top it off, we have a Jury that did not look at any evidence throughout the trial, and none at all during deliberations. Wouldn't it be great if Prosecutors always had the murderers on video, no need for a Jury at all.
This is my opinion only, but I say lets let everyone out of Prison. We have proven wthout a shadow of doubt that our legal system does NOT work! We let another Guilty Murderer go free, yet we will put a man behind bars for 3-5yrs for having 1.1 oz of Marijiuana. There is NO justice in our justice system, that is why Lady Justice is blind folded. MOO

Might as well let all murderers out, right? And let's not be surprised when KC strikes again, somewhere, somehow. She holds the truth, and it will eat her up inside. In the end, she will end up convicted for something.

 

[Cherry Baby]

I'm very sorry to hear of your loss Tennesseean. I can only pray that your pain be lessened, and that one day your great grandchild is with you again.

Frankly...if I see another interview with Juror #3 I'm going to scream. I turn the channel when I see her. I'm not angry at her, but there's something off with her thought processes.

 

[jjenny]

Let's assume for a second that the scenario defense came up with is correct. The little girl drowned and then was dumped into the swamp like garbage.
Is that legal to do in the state of FL? The verdict would suggest there is nothing wrong with that scenario, considering she was found not guilty of either manslaughter or child abuse.

 

[Solange82200]

I have to say that I do not believe that the jury did what was asked of them. I am getting a little miffed at all of the TH's that are now saying, 'how dare anyone question these people? They did their civic duty'. Well, it is very clear from the ones that have spoken already, that they did not follow the instructions of the court, and that is part of that civic duty.

First, we have the alternate (that was not in on the deliberations) stating 'WE believed'...Who, exactly is the 'we' if not the rest of the jurors, who were instructed EVERY SINGLE DAY to not discuss the case between themselves. It is obvious that that is what happened.

Both the alternate and #3 have stated that they didn't find enough evidence to support putting someone to death. AGAIN, the judge's instructions were very clear that they were not to discuss the punishment during the guilt phase of the trial, but they obviously did.

Then we have #3 saying that they did not think that she is innocent, and would have voted guilty for a lesser crime. WTH? This statement alone makes me question the level of cognitive reasoning of this panel, since they apparently completely missed the fact that there were lesser charges on the table. :banghead: She, along with some others, didn't take a single note throughout the trial. This indicates that she probably had her mind made up from the DT OS, which once again, the judge warned was NOT to be considered evidence.

Out of 300 evidence exhibits, this jury did not feel the need to look at a single one. Out of 33 days of testimony, this jury did not feel the need to hear or view any of it a second time. Even though we are being told that they would have voted guilty for a lesser charge, this jury didn't ask a single question to ask for clarification of the charges. And then to add insult to injury, this jury devoted less than one hour a piece to the deliberation process. They did not honestly consider the evidence as they were charged to do, IMO.

I cannot help but feel that the process broke down in this case. I don't feel that this jury did their duty, and that is an abomination, IMO. I wonder how they will feel when ICA murders her next victim? :twocents:

That is what I think some people are missing. The consequences of the mistake this jury made. We are talking about lives being in danger, she is a sociopathic murderer, who wants to have more children! They have the public safety in their hands, and they took it about as seriously as if deciding what outfit you want to wear today.

Everyone needs to ask themselves, these prosecutors have years (at least 25) of experience, more than most anyone here. Do you really think they would have spent so much time or money prosecuting this if there wasn't enough evidence? These people do this every day, if they say there was enough evidence, and that they've convicted on less, it's true.

 

[natsound]

Let's assume for a second that the scenario defense came up with is correct. The little girl drowned and then was dumped into the swamp like garbage.
Is that legal to do in the state of FL? The verdict would suggest there is nothing wrong with that scenario, considering she was found not guilty of either manslaughter or child abuse.

I don't think the jurors believed the defense scenario. Have they said they believed it? I'm hearing that they don't know what happened to Caylee.