Discussion between the verdict and sentencing

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THE PISTORIUS TRIAL IS OVER, BUT HAS JUSTICE BEEN SERVED?

“I can’t believe that they believe it was an accident.”

That’s what Reeva Steenkamp’s mother June told NBC in her first interview after the verdict. Judging by social media, by callers to talk radio, by people on the street, she was not alone.

But Oscar Pistorius walked out of the North Gauteng High Court on Friday cleared of murder. He is officially not a murderer. Whatever happens to him now, his name, his reputation – his all-important brand – will not suffer that taint. Oscar Pistorius did not murder anyone.

Instead, he was “negligent”. He was “reckless”. Reeva Steenkamp died because Oscar Pistorius was negligent and reckless.

This law business is a funny one. When many of us think of “culpable homicide”, we think of a driver accidentally hitting someone with their car. We don’t think of someone walking up to a tiny toilet door and blasting four bullets through it. Four closely-grouped bullets, not a wild spray. A toilet so small that there was literally nowhere to hide.

That sounds a lot more like murder to many of us.

The law, in Judge Masipa’s interpretation, thinks otherwise. Judge Masipa also thinks that Pistorius’s post-shooting behaviour – crying, praying to God, screaming for help – is a sign that he did not foresee that his actions could lead to death.

Many acts of murderous rage are followed by just this kind of penitence, but that’s the kind of thing we have to let go now.

But we have to maintain our faith in the law, even while we who are not legal experts gesture in hopeless frustration to the fact that a rhino poacher was sentenced in July to 77 years in prison, while Oscar Pistorius sleeps in his uncle’s house. We can’t always get the verdict that seems intuitively “right”.

No verdict could have brought Reeva Steenkamp back to life. But at the end of all of this, it is hard not to feel exhausted, and jaded. It is hard to imagine what the Steenkamp family must endure, to accept that their daughter died from “negligence”. The sight of Reeva’s cousin Kim collapsing into sobs as the final verdict was read was testament enough to their pain.

http://ewn.co.za/2014/09/15/OPINION...ius-trial-is-over-but-has-justice-been-served


I am a strong advocate against poaching but it doesn't make sense that Reeva's life is worth less than the rhinos and her murderer is free. :(

His whole life was "reckless" and often he was "negligent"...all this was in play long before this...he is a murderer. This trial found nothing new at all.
 
OP has many gun toting friends who will be happy to share with him...he will have as much access to a gun as he wants in he future. I assume he will be prohibited from owning one which frankly means nothing.

tbh i am beginning to think lots of things mean nothing in sa.
a woman's screams
one shot or four shots
black talon ammunition
holding unlicensed ammunition in your safe.
independent witness testimony
perjury
pleading innocent and then admitting guilt at the last minute...
 
Is there any link to this BBC3 program...I would really like to watch and am in US and really can't find anything on it. Thanks.

Unfortunately turaj, BBC 3 iPlayer only available in UK, but I am sure someone will upload it to Youtube. I'll keep checking every day.
 
I hate to repeat myself as have posted earlier, but it's more than possible that the state cannot appeal at all, even were Pistorius to get a non-custodial sentence. Supreme Court of Appeal case S v Seekoei limits the state’s right of appeal so ONLY possible IF accused was acquitted, and not if found guilty of a lesser charge.

But Oscar found guilty of Culpable Homicide. Therefore no appeal. It would mean that Oscar is now BETTER OFF with Masipa's verdict than he would have been had the verdict been putative self defence. That would be a not guilty charge and the state could then appeal.

If you want to read it for yourselves see http://www.dispatchlive.co.za/gen/oscar-verdict-a-done-deal/

Let's see if this is picked up and analysed by wiser heads than mine.

This is my understanding of it too Rosie, and have been wondering if JM found him guilty of a lesser charge to prevent an appeal. If she had cleared him on all charges then the state could have appealed it. Seems as though she has done her best to ensure that OP is not punished once, never mind twice (as she was so worried about when instructing an outpatient psych assessment.
 
Obviously, Roux wasn't in the 'loop', he looked annoyed and exasperated most of the time, and his CA, he was whingy and whiny, and pleading like HIS life depended upon it. The 'loop' being Masipa, Uncle Arnie & co. and OP. jmo

Interesting thought as to who was "in the loop"...point well taken about Roux...definitely Masipa/Arnie and I'm not even sure about OP as he is such a loose canon I don't know if Arnie could trust him to keep the confidence. I also think Aimee was very much "in the loop" and charged with keeping OP in line when Arnie was not in town. Arnie was a busy boy...he has Carl and his escapades to deal with and all of the business empire (ie most of SA) and then of course his favorite nephew OP.
 
This is my understanding of it too Rosie, and have been wondering if JM found him guilty of a lesser charge to prevent an appeal. If she had cleared him on all charges then the state could have appealed it. Seems as though she has done her best to ensure that OP is not punished once, never mind twice (as she was so worried about when instructing an outpatient psych assessment.

Wow. I did not realize that the state may not be able to appeal.

I tend to agree about this judge and she may have been even slicker than I first thought. If she has planned this to ensure she convicts him of the lesser charge and she gives a very light sentence with no chance for appeal.

JMO
I really do think she took a liking to OP because she connected with him on some level related to her polio walking disability she has. We all hoped that she could stay unbias as to something so obvious like that but I am seriously thinking that is exactly what happened here.

And combine that with OP's fame and a tough prosecuting attorney and it made a recipe for this judge to side with OP from the early days of the trial. Once she started leaning toward's OP I dont think she could stop herself from being very bias in this case.

My hopes of her being impartial are gone.
 
I don't belong to facebook but if you do it might be an idea to let someone know that it should be formally not formerly. Looks a tad uneducated to me.

I posted a comment in the area "Why is this important to you" about the typo, flagged my comment and now the typo has been fixed :)
 
What is the general impression about Botha?

I didn't follow the bail hearing closely, I didn't watch him at that hearing and don't even know what exactly took place there (was not a member here then!), but just heard that Roux tore him apart.
But just from the fact that
1. he was removed as the lead investigator on the ground that there were pending murder charges against him,
2. he was not called by the Prosecution Team as a witness, and
3. he was not called by the Defense Team either,
my conclusion is that he was the one in the Police Team who was compromised. For the following reasons:
a) That there were pending charges against him could not have been unknown to the Police Department when he was assigned the job in the first place - so to me the removal was for some other reason, it was just a convenient ground on which he was removed.
b) surely he could have something significant to contribute on behalf of the State, being at the scene quite early and being the investigator during the initial days. There has to be some reason for not putting him up as a witness. They must have thought he has the potential to completely spoil their case when at the stand,
c) Defense team could have used him to establish that the scene was definitely contaminated and possibly other things in their favor (if my conclusion is correct), but then why didn't they call him? Because they were also equally worried that under cross examination from Nel, he might be exposed.

Is this a reasonable conclusion? Or was there anything during the initial stages or during the bail hearing that points to the contrary? Would love to have your views on this.

I thought I'd post this akp, I read it a little while back and bookmarked it. The charges were dropped against Hilton Botha but then along comes OP.........




The disgraced policeman who has been removed from the Oscar Pistorius murder investigation after being torn apart by the athlete's defence lawyer on the witness stand says he’s no bungling Inspector Clouseau.

Asked why he had been replaced, he referred to telephone records, forensic and ballistics reports that he was trying to get, but could not.

"They probably felt I had made a few mistakes, which were not my fault,” he said. “I couldn't testify about evidence I didn't have in the case file. I couldn't even give hearsay testimony because I hadn't got the feedback I needed.

"I didn't want to stand up there and lie. If you lie in front of a court it discredits you, although — in this instance — I've already been discredited even though I didn't lie."

He welcomed the appointment of Vinesh Moonoo to oversee the case. "I stand back with respect. This is a guy with 30 years’ experience.

Botha also denied reports that he and three other cops had been on a drunken bender when opened fire on a minivan taxi while on duty in late 2011. Charges against him and two other officers were dropped last year, but then mysteriously reinstated this month.

Botha said he found that "very strange."

In a detailed account of the incident, Botha told the Daily News he and two other policemen had been tracking a suspect in the brutal murder of Denise Stratford, a 55-year-old woman whose body was found stuffed down a drain near the Pretoria office where she worked. Security guards had reported finding spent bullet cartridge casings and a trail of blood in the parking lot.

Botha said he and the other cops were on the way to a house where they believed one of the murder suspects might be hiding when the taxi drove straight into their path and forced them off the road before speeding off.

"We didn't know it was being used as a taxi. The windows were tinted and we couldn't see inside,” he said. “After it ran us off the road we thought the occupants might be carjackers or cash-in-transit robbers. They didn't stop. We sped off after them and they picked up speed. We tried to pursue it, flashed our lights and showed our identification out the window. We were in a pickup truck with police registration plates which were clearly visible but they kept going at (100 miles) an hour. I then fired shots at the van but aiming low to shoot out the tires.

"Later it turned out the driver knew the local police station commander and the next thing we were arrested, locked up and charged with attempted murder.

"There wasn't a case because nobody was killed and all the shots were under the tires. Only one hit above the tires."

The case was postponed four times and then withdrawn. The cops were given back their bail money, passports and firearms.

Botha is adamant that none of them were under the influence of alcohol and plans to legal steps against "the person who said we were drunk.”

"It is laughable. We were on duty and we were working on a murder case. In such a situation they would have drawn our blood to confirm that we were intoxicated but that was never done."

National Police Commissioner Riah Phiyega defended Botha and said the decision by the National Prosecuting Authority to re-instate the charges against him "raises suspicion.”

Though off the case, Botha still believed Pistorius was guilty of murder.

"It will take about a week before the general is on top of it and he'll have everything that I should have got and wanted to get,” he said. “I'm still positive about the case. As long as justice is served, I'm happy."

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/det-botha-speaks-article-1.1270104
 
Just going back to basics, I'm still struggling to work out why OP would even think any of the noises he heard while he was in the bedroom would've been that of an intruder, let alone go into combat mode upon hearing them. Basically, he wouldn't have .. nobody would .. it's just a total nonsense.

In the words of Mr Nel .. 'because it didn't happen .. it didn't happen'.

And speaking of "back to basics" I look at that evening in a very simplistic manner...two people who had been having a fair amount of arguments in the preceeding days/weeks and it is pre valentines (really not sure what they had in mind for the actual Valentine's day)..have not heard any plans) and she comes with gifts etc....evening consists of him watching *advertiser censored*...she goes yoga etc. and these are two young supposed "lovers" and not one mention of any intimacy? Something is just off about the whole description of the events that night and given we have only one "version" that of the killer we are left to infer. I infer there was fighting and lots of it...it was not a normal romantic evening of a couple still in the early stages of a relationship. It is this fighting that led to what happened and the whole story concocted by OP. And yes he was sorry after he did it but that in no way counts to let him off of murder. Just my very "un-legal" summary of that evening/morning.
 
tbh i am beginning to think lots of things mean nothing in sa.
a woman's screams
one shot or four shots
black talon ammunition
holding unlicensed ammunition in your safe.
independent witness testimony
perjury
pleading innocent and then admitting guilt at the last minute...

I guess everyone walks around with black talons in their gun ready to go...great place!!
 
I was reading the article RosieC posted about chances for appeal. Thanks for that. It says, essentially, where there was "a competent verdict," the state cannot appeal. According to the ruling, the state can only appeal if there was a "complete acquittal."

To me, the key words here are "competent verdict". If the judge did NOT make a competent verdict, there could be grounds for appeal.

I for one have questions about the judge's state of mind... Her logic was so convoluted as to be frightening. She also appeared not to be fluent with a document she ostensibly created over a period of weeks. Editing it on live tv and whatnot. I believe there may be some genuine cognitive issues at play with the judge (bias aside). It seems the state could appeal on these grounds.

Has anyone found statues pertaining to SA's definitions of and exclusions to "competent conviction"? I'm looking...
 
And speaking of "back to basics" I look at that evening in a very simplistic manner...two people who had been having a fair amount of arguments in the preceeding days/weeks and it is pre valentines (really not sure what they had in mind for the actual days..have not heard any plans) and she comes with gifts etc....evening consists of him watching *advertiser censored*...she goes yoga etc. and these are two young supposed "lovers" and not one mention of any intimacy? Something is just off about the whole description of the events that night and given we have only one "version" that of the killer we are left to infer. I infer there was fighting and lots of it...it was not a normal romantic evening of a couple still in the early stages of a relationship. It is this fighting that led to what happened and the whole story concocted by OP. And yes he was sorry after he did it but that in no way counts to let him off of murder. Just my very "un-legal" summary of that evening/morning.

Agree.

I watched a show last week. It was something like 20/20 or something similar where they had OP ex-girlfriend. The one where she claims OP was in their car when he fired a gun through the sunroof.

She indicated during the interview on the show that OP had an extremely bad agressive temper. Her Mom also said the same. I believed her and her mom. They even said they knew something like this was going to happen with OP.

That girl is lucky she broke up with him. She said she saw him and Reeva on a TV interview together being close while she was supposedly still not broken up with him yet and that was the final straw. This ex-GF is lucky to be alive because it most likely would have been her if not Reeva.

I can see why the GF did not make a good witness though. She seemed, kinda loofy and not very intelligent. I dont think she was lying at all but her demeaner is of one that is ignorant and not very educated. Which did not help the prosecution at all. I feel sorry for her as she fits a stereotype of gorgious but not so smart. She just came across that way whether she really was smart or not.
It makes me wonder if OP pursued woman like the ex-GF. And when Reeva turned out to be very smart and educated, perhaps that was the source of all the friction between OP + Reeva. OP could not accept she was much smarter than him.

I also seriously fear for any future GF of OP. This guy will not change and he will harm another GF in future. It may not be murder next time but I am betting he will hurt another GF in a fight.
 
Agree.

I watched a show last week. It was something like 20/20 or something similar where they had OP ex-girlfriend. The one where she claims OP was in their car when he fired a gun through the sunroof.

She indicated during the interview on the show that OP had an extremely bad agressive temper. Her Mom also said the same. I believed her and her mom. They even said they knew something like this was going to happen with OP.

That girl is lucky she broke up with him. She said she saw him and Reeva on a TV interview together being close while she was supposedly still not broken up with him yet and that was the final straw. This ex-GF is lucky to be alive because it most likely would have been her if not Reeva.

I can see why the GF did not make a good witness though. She seemed, kinda loofy and not very intelligent. I dont think she was lying at all but her demeaner is of one that is ignorant and not very educated. Which did not help the prosecution at all. I feel sorry for her as she fits a stereotype of gorgious but not so smart.
It makes me wonder if OP pursued woman like the ex-GF. And when Reeva turned out to be very smart and educated, perhaps that was the source of all the friction between OP + Reeva. OP could not accept she was much smarter than him.

I also seriously fear for any future GF of OP. This guy will not change and he will harm another GF in future. It may not be murder next time but I am betting he will hurt another GF in a fight.

I agree, and I believe his ex-gf too. He's gone back to the real young ones again. It's so much easier for him to control them when they don't have much life experience and they're star struck.
Imo, Reeva was definitely out of his league with regards to intelligence, maturity and goodness. She probably woke up too late, on Valentine's Day of all days. jmo
 
Oh for heavens sake! It is human instinct that when sharing a bed with someone, and there is any sort of disturbance in the home, one immediately looks first towards the space occupied by the partner.
 
I agree, and I believe his ex-gf too. He's gone back to the real young ones again. It's so much easier for him to control them when they don't have much life experience and they're star struck.
Imo, Reeva was definitely out of his league with regards to intelligence, maturity and goodness. She probably woke up too late, on Valentine's Day of all days. jmo

In looking at OP's exes there was one that he dated on and off for five years ...bio seemed like she had a very good job and of course beautiful. She would be more along the lines of Reeva. Early on when this happened she came to his rescue and said no way could he murder someone etc. and remained very quiet ever since. She definitely is in the Pistorius corner...in general Sam Taylor I think is totally managed in ALL aspects of her life by her mother who is definitely no fool judging from the interview. As I have said before she is clearly profiting off this but I think it would be a stretch to think she is making up the stuff they say about OP...it seems consistent with his treatment of Reeva (as much as we know with only texts etc to go by). Sam does fit the "dumb" blonde imagine but I thought held together pretty well on the stand. This new "squeeze" is really young and again her parents are backing the relationship and I assume it is like Sam another family on the take with any $$(or rand) that OP will throw their way.
 
Oh for heavens sake! It is human instinct that when sharing a bed with someone, and there is any sort of disturbance in the home, one immediately looks first towards the space occupied by the partner.

You know it is really this simple. This case was really about common sense much more than all the crazy theories that just seemed to confuse the judge into her verdict.
 
Wow. I did not realize that the state may not be able to appeal.

I tend to agree about this judge and she may have been even slicker than I first thought. If she has planned this to ensure she convicts him of the lesser charge and she gives a very light sentence with no chance for appeal.

JMO
I really do think she took a liking to OP because she connected with him on some level related to her polio walking disability she has. We all hoped that she could stay unbias as to something so obvious like that but I am seriously thinking that is exactly what happened here.

And combine that with OP's fame and a tough prosecuting attorney and it made a recipe for this judge to side with OP from the early days of the trial. Once she started leaning toward's OP I dont think she could stop herself from being very bias in this case.

My hopes of her being impartial are gone.
Agree. She threw compassion for the victim, fairness, reason and logic completely out the window. Just makes me wonder what she's rec'd in exchange.
 
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