Discussion between the verdict and sentencing

[buntspecht]

Every time I do a Google search on Henke+manager+dispute, there are only entries about OP+dispute (other than with his father), so Google is like all sources: always Oscar, Oscar, Oscar -sigh.

maybe you could do a 'Clear browsing history->all'


Henke+manager+dispute works on iPad.Chrome. All entries on page 1 about the 3 words.

 

[Jamtart]

I've thought this as well. I feel for South Africa, they knew their justice system would be in the spotlight and they still found a way to bugger it up. Only if Oscar is given the maximum 15 years would this have a chance at looking any better.

If this is how poor their justice system is when the eyes of the world are upon it, then heaven only knows what happens behind closed doors. I think the article posted above by Interested Bystander is an indication. Even with all the unrest and division in Scotland just now, I feel very grateful and safe to be living here and not in SA.

 

[buntspecht]

I've thought this as well. I feel for South Africa, they knew their justice system would be in the spotlight and they still found a way to bugger it up. Only if Oscar is given the maximum 15 years would this have a chance at looking any better.

when Ulli Hoeness went to prison, there was a day of open doors to many journalists.
The whole world wants then to know the new home of OP.

Not a problem for me...but in Germany are not 80 inmates in a cell for 32.

 

[Susza]

"

Well said....I am still in the rabbit hole....with her saying if the beautiful Reeva had hovered over him in bed he could have blasted her then...wth?......she did say that right?....I'll never get out of this hole until she explains her reasoning. Boom

Op must actually be very with JM after having heard her saying that. "Why haven't you told me before? It would have been so much easier!"

 

[RosieC]

I was reading the article RosieC posted about chances for appeal. Thanks for that. It says, essentially, where there was "a competent verdict," the state cannot appeal. According to the ruling, the state can only appeal if there was a "complete acquittal."

To me, the key words here are "competent verdict". If the judge did NOT make a competent verdict, there could be grounds for appeal.

I for one have questions about the judge's state of mind... Her logic was so convoluted as to be frightening. She also appeared not to be fluent with a document she ostensibly created over a period of weeks. Editing it on live tv and whatnot. I believe there may be some genuine cognitive issues at play with the judge (bias aside). It seems the state could appeal on these grounds.

Has anyone found statues pertaining to SA's definitions of and exclusions to "competent conviction"? I'm looking...

A competent verdict is an alternative verdict to the charge. Culpable homicide is a competent verdict to the charge of murder.

Sorry I feel there may be a lot of glum faces among those who feel that Masipa's verdict was unjust, and pick up that their last hope of an appeal may not be available.

Of course to follow the OJ trail, the Steenkamps could decide to sue Pistorius.

Update: According to James Grant state can appeal this See @CrimalLawZA for details.

 

[vanatos]

Hi Vanatos,
I am South African (although I live in the States now), but I am in contact with many of my friends and family who still live in SA and I asked them this exact question. They say that people are not only disappointed, but downright outraged, ashamed that the legal system let them down, and in utter shock about this travesty!! Here in the USA, the OP trial was just mentioned briefly on the news radio on Friday, and then was quickly forgotten in the shadow of the ISIS crisis news, but in SA the OP trial is consistently discussed, and still in the headlines. People are truly very upset and very angry about this.

Thanks!

I wonder if the South African news media has been getting more information then we have, i get the sense that for example they discuss and have been shown much more information about Pistorius' private life.

 

[Sherbert]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/oscar-pistorius-got-away-with-murder-reeva-steenkamps-british-brother-adam-claims-9731831.html

Reeva's brother: "When I saw him vomiting and crying I just thought, ‘Man up. Man up.’

"Our tears are a lot more real, they are heavier. Crying about his lot wasn’t going to change anything. He is a man and it was time for him to stand up and take it on the chin. It was disappointing to see him not do that. It looked like he was acting..."

 

[Greater Than]

For what it's worth, I've emailed the NPA in SA expressing my concern for the thousands of South Africans whose lives have been put at risk by the dangerous precedents set by Masipa's inexplicable verdicts.

Dangerous indeed. SA is a common law jurisdiction. Masipa's ruling, if not overturned on an appeal, sets a precedent for all future criminal trials where the defendant claims he was acting in putative private defense.

"I thought it was an intruder" will forever clear anyone in SA of a murder conviction.

 

[Cherwell]

Dangerous indeed. SA is a common law jurisdiction. Masipa's ruling, if not overturned on an appeal, sets a precedent for all future criminal trials where the defendant claims he was acting in putative private defense.

"I thought it was an intruder" will forever clear anyone in SA of a murder conviction.

Yes, and don't forget her ruling on the ammunition charge which is just as alarming.

 

[thewagesofsin]

Yes, and don't forget her ruling on the ammunition charge which is just as alarming.

I didn't even bother listening to why he got off on that one. It seemed open and shut, what was her reasoning for it again?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk and I have large thumbs.

 

[Lyra500]

I didn't even bother listening to why he got off on that one. It seemed open and shut, what was her reasoning for it again?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk and I have large thumbs.

Some utterly ridiculous phraseology along the lines of "The state failed to prove that OP intended to possess the ammunition", so the charge was dismissed.

Disgraceful.

 

[Jamtart]

I didn't even bother listening to why he got off on that one. It seemed open and shut, what was her reasoning for it again?


Something along the lines of "it's okay to possess ammo illegally if you cry, vomit and pretend you didn't know it was there"

 

[thewagesofsin]

It was in his safe but he says he didn't know about it. Beautiful! It's just that easy when you're rich and famous isn't it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk and I have large thumbs.

 

[pandax81]

Thanks for this link, a bombshell. It all rests on s322(4) where the Criminal Procedure Act refers to "acquittal". I've looked into it, and I don't care what the case law says - set a new precedent if necessary. The Act itself clearly only intends one thing when it refers to "acquittal" even if restricted to complete acquittal. It means in such a case, the appeal court can order a RETRIAL if it so wishes. That's all it is saying, and it is clear to me at least that this is what the lawmakers intended. It does not intend whatsoever that the state cannot appeal and the judgement be remedied in the usual way if there was a guilty charge on a competent verdict.

Criminal Procedure Act http://www.justice.gov.za/legislation/acts/1977-051.pdf

Powers of Court of Appeal

s322(1)(b)
In the case of an appeal against a conviction or of any question of law reserved, the court of appeal may give such judgment as ought to have been given at the trial or impose such punishment as ought to have been imposed at the trial

s322(4)
Where a question of law has been reserved on the application of a prosecutor in the case of an acquittal, and the court of appeal has given a decision in favour of the prosecutor, the court of appeal may order that such of the steps referred to in section 324 be taken as the court may direct.

s324
Institution of proceedings de novo when conviction set aside on appeal

Is an appeal back on?

Professor James Grant has come full circle and is now of exactly the same opinion as me that Seekeoi makes no sense because s322(4) and s324 in no way exclude or seek to exclude an appeal, and he agrees this 32-year-old case law should be overturned:

James Grant @CriminalLawZA

"The reasons that appear in Seekoei are strange - requires that s 319 (providing for state appeals) works with 2 other sections s322(4) and 324 - but, I can't figure out why this is required, or how this could even make sense."
"This question (Seekoei and s 319) had me and two other Profs busy all day - its a mess."

https://twitter.com/CriminalLawZA/status/511961610999840768
https://twitter.com/CriminalLawZA/status/511961978555088896
https://twitter.com/CriminalLawZA/status/511965645274365952

 

[ApplesInMyBra]

Thanks!

I wonder if the South African news media has been getting more information then we have, i get the sense that for example they discuss and have been shown much more information about Pistorius' private life.

Well I think that they are getting more information because they have a TV channel completely dedicated entirely to the OP Trial 24/7, and the news media discuss every aspect of the case constantly, unlike here in the States where the story might be mentioned briefly on the back page of a newspaper.

 

[cottonweaver]

I was just about to send you his tweets Pandax.
It's good news, relatively speaking.
Funny tweets about him being initially mistaken as he was beside road in a broken down vehicle whilst he was doing criminal law research.
PS He is leaving academia and going back to the Bar.

 

[Figuring]

Unfortunately, "competent verdict" doesn't refer to the competency of the judgement. When charged with certain crimes e.g. murder, then a court can convict on what is known as a competent charge instead, e.g. culpable homicide. This is what is intended by the term "competent verdict".

Yes, you're right. Legalese is awful!

 

[turaj]

I've thought this as well. I feel for South Africa, they knew their justice system would be in the spotlight and they still found a way to bugger it up. Only if Oscar is given the maximum 15 years would this have a chance at looking any better.

At this point that is really the only thing that can quiet this down other than time....but even with giving him prison time I assume with "good behavior" etc. he can get that taken down fast...not sure about the SA system.

 

[Figuring]

I was wondering if the many of you who know a heck of a lot more than me about SA law can help me with two questions:

1. How is it determined that a case is heard at Lower Court vs. High Court? Is it based on the severity of the charge? I ask because the State's rights are restricted even further when cases that take place at the High Court (as OP's was), versus lower court.

2. Can the State appeal the acquittal of the gun charges? It says they are permitted to try and appeal in cases of "complete acquittal." Does that mean OP would have to have been convicted of none of the 4 charges? Or does it mean the State can appeal any charges he was acquitted of?

After reading a bunch of docs today, my hopes are dashed...I'm whittling for a sliver of hope!

 

[ApplesInMyBra]

Some utterly ridiculous phraseology along the lines of "The state failed to prove that OP intended to possess the ammunition", so the charge was dismissed.

Disgraceful.

Yup, so it is OK to drive around with a stash of cocaine in your backseat and when pulled over, you can just say nope, it's my buddy's!