Discussion between the verdict and sentencing

[KarenUK]

.. and to me, this was the strangest and most frightening part of the whole thing .. the re-enactment video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxyoiuYbaO8

.. how the hell could he re-enact that shooting with such apparent ease? .. and worse still, how the hell did he re-enact the part of Reeva slumped on the toilet, and then to cap it all, those bits with him carrying his sister Aimee down the stairs? I've honestly never seen anything so creepy in my whole life! Sick, the whole lot of em.

He wasn't crying and retching then, was he?!

 

[jay-jay]

You know what? I wouldn't put it passed him. :furious:

.. me neither .. seriously!

 

[jay-jay]

He wasn't crying and retching then, was he?!

Nope!

 

[sleuth-d-]

Haha, still bringing this up like this somehow backs up the minority case?! Yes, emotionally, it feels the same I know, but for the more critical analysis people, the facts and arguments of this case are different to the facts and arguments presented in OP case.

admittedly the post-shooting behaviour differs... but the incident is startlingly similar. and if this was in the news at the time... there goes masipa's argument as to why op immediately had the intruder story, and stuck to it.

sorry to repeat the content but i am so amazed by the similarities:

In his plea, Mdunge said he and Thobile were asleep at their home when he was woken at about 00:00 on 13 April 2011 “by a strange noise like a window opening”.

He thought that a burglar was trying to get into the house.

'Fearful of his life'

“The accused was fearful of his life and grabbed the gun that he keeps in his bedside pedestal drawer at night for protection from unwanted intruders in his home.

“The accused then made his way to the entrance door of the room and could hear the noise coming from the bathroom.

“The accused then slowly made his way to the bathroom door to investigate the noise, thinking that the burglar was hiding in the bathroom.

“As the accused reached the bathroom door, the bathroom door suddenly slid open and the accused, afraid for his life, panicked at being startled by the door suddenly opening and he fired a shot from his gun at the person who opened the door.

“After the accused had discharged the shot he realised that it was his wife that he had shot, thinking she was a burglar, it was said in Mdunge’s plea statement.

It added that Mdunge “immediately” rushed Thobile to Mediclinic Hospital.


http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Man-who-shot-wife-in-error-can-sympathise-with-Oscar-20140407

 

[CHERIE.T]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ar-athlete-murder-prompted-anger-threats.html

Pistorius judge under police protection in South Africa after decision to clear the athlete of murder

 

[JudgeJudi]

Hi JJ, I imagine he had to get it in place well before that but is not the case 3 years old? Maybe I have missed the point. It was a Judge Brian someone-or-other. I have forgotten already. I haven't had a chance to see who the assessors were, not that it matters because already that case has created a precedent for murdering your partner and getting away with it, IMO. SA justice has been set back years due to OP's miscarriage of justice.

Hi IB, I can't find the judgment for this and I'm not having any luck Googling his name either. Can you help please?

 

[Interested Bystander]

Is anyone of the opinion that Roux's late inclusion of a plea of guilty to the Tasha incident was introduced to thwart total acquittal which would have left the appeal path wide open for Nel? Or have I got it wrong?

 

[sleuth-d-]

Is anyone of the opinion that Roux's late inclusion of a plea of guilty to the Tasha incident was introduced to thwart total acquittal which would have left the appeal path wide open for Nel? Or have I got it wrong?

it had crossed my mind, and is a possibility... although did roux really think that op would be acquitted in count one. [i am assuming op is still guilty of ch, so this is not counted as an acquittal]

 

[Marfa Lights]

Has anyone else read the newly published book "Oscar: An Accident Waiting to Happen" by Trisha Taylor (Samantha Taylor's mom)? Although I can't believe I spent $10 on it-- does anyone EVER proofread e-books?-- it does paint quite a portrait of Oscar as an out-of-control pschychological mess who was constantly crying and blubbering about seemingly everything in his life going back at least as far as the entire period he dated her daughter (lest ye think he was just being a bawl baby as a result of post-traumatic stress from the murder and during the trial.)

In contrast to the carefully controlled PR images of Oscar as the (excessively) humble and disciplined athlete, she describes a shallow, and emotionally strung-out man who, as so often reported, fed his gnawing insecurities with alcohol binges, fast cars, guns, and beautiful blondes, usually two or three at a time. According to Trisha Taylor, Oscar was a chronic and highly skilled liar, who could switch on and off from playing the pitiful and sympathetic little boy as victim, or the charming young gentleman to being a manipulative, arrogant, selfish and rude snot the next.

So while that sort of thing will only confirm the suspicions of many, she does fill in a lot of background detail about the many hints in the media about his behavior at the 2012 Olympics, threats to break the legs of Samantha's other boyfriends, etc. Personally, I feel she earned the right to publish her account of the hell he put their family through, and needed the catharsis of getting her side of the story out there. Apparently after five miscarriages and then finally raising four children of her own, her very powerful maternal instincts (and background in psychology) kicked into overdrive and she devoted enormous time and energy trying to help the clearly troubled Oscar, treating him as her "fifth child", begging him to get psychological help and repeatedly getting false promises from him in return.

Not a book promotion here-- just curious what others might think of the book if you have bothered to read it and if you might have gained any insights from it. Reading accounts like this after the trial makes it even harder, of course, to stomach Masipa's sympathies for Oscar's performance the night of the murder and for everyone who endured all his courtroom lying, sniveling, and hystrionics.

 

[Jamtart]

Is anyone of the opinion that Roux's late inclusion of a plea of guilty to the Tasha incident was introduced to thwart total acquittal which would have left the appeal path wide open for Nel? Or have I got it wrong?

I don't think so Interested Bystander (although I usually tend to agree with your posts) as it's a separate charge/offence, but I do think that JM found OP guilty of CH instead of acquitting him to prevent an appeal and also so that he wouldn't appear to be getting off scot free. Just my opinion, and based on no legal knowledge or expertise

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Hi IB, I can't find the judgment for this and I'm not having any luck Googling his name either. Can you help please?

I've searched and can't find anything on this except a couple of news reports.

Thobile Mdunge was shot during the early hours of 13 April 2011, as she emerged from the bathroom. She was reportedly pregnant at the time.

On 21 February last year – just days after Pistorius was arrested – the prosecution in Mdunge’s case accepted a plea of guilty to the lesser charge of culpable homicide in connection with Thobile’s shooting, in terms of an agreement negotiated by his attorney, Deshika Naidu, and advocate Ranjiv Nirghin.

Mdunge killed his wife less than 2 years before OP killed Reeva, and he mistook her for an intruder. :findinglink:

I'm wondering if J Masipa used Mdunge's testimony and verdict in helping make her decision? She never cited it though, and she should have if it is the case. :moo:

 

[sleuth-d-]

I've searched and can't find anything on this except a couple of news reports.

Thobile Mdunge was shot during the early hours of 13 April 2011, as she emerged from the bathroom. She was reportedly pregnant at the time.

On 21 February last year – just days after Pistorius was arrested – the prosecution in Mdunge’s case accepted a plea of guilty to the lesser charge of culpable homicide in connection with Thobile’s shooting, in terms of an agreement negotiated by his attorney, Deshika Naidu, and advocate Ranjiv Nirghin.

Mdunge killed his wife less than 2 years before OP killed Reeva, and he mistook her for an intruder. :findinglink:

I'm wondering if J Masipa used Mdunge's testimony and verdict in helping make her decision? She never cited it though, and she should have if it is the case. :moo:

http://www.iol.co.za/news/south-afr...hooting-tragic-mistake-1.1058485#.VBlpZ2SwLTY

that word 'mistake'.
also the fact that being religious is somehow mitigating.

was op a serious/regular church goer? prior to the event i mean... there are a couple of passing comments regarding religion in his book. it comes across that his mother was very religious.

 

[Interested Bystander]

I came across in my web wanderings of today. Desmond Nair doesn't seem to have ever included any restriction on OP carrying a gun in the original bail conditions. I am gobsmacked! A potential killer allowed to keep his gun whilst on bail for murder! We know he has been allowed to continue on those revised bail conditions as agreed by Judge Bam (until sentence) .

http://www.bdlive.co.za/national/2013/03/28/pistorius-succeeds-in-bid-to-have-bail-conditions-waived

 

[Cloen]

it had crossed my mind, and is a possibility... although did roux really think that op would be acquitted in count one. [i am assuming op is still guilty of ch, so this is not counted as an acquittal]

Yes, as it stands he's been charged with Culpable Homicide and is awaiting sentencing, and following mitigation from both sides,- the result of that Nel will decide then if, whether to Appeal the Charge or sentence or both - my guess is IF the NPA is able to and there was an error in the application of the Law by the Judge for Charge of CH and if he doesn't get a sentence of some years in prison an Appeal from the State will happen. My guess is that if Oscar isn't given a sentence to serve time in prison for CH, Nel will Appeal.

 

[Cloen]

I came across in my web wanderings of today. Desmond Nair doesn't seem to have ever included any restriction on OP carrying a gun in the original bail conditions. I am gobsmacked! A potential killer allowed to keep his gun whilst on bail for murder! We know he has been allowed to continue on those revised bail conditions as agreed by Judge Bam (until sentence) .

http://www.bdlive.co.za/national/2013/03/28/pistorius-succeeds-in-bid-to-have-bail-conditions-waived

I read early on after the bail hearing that Oscar's license shouldn't have been renewed anyway, so very strange that carrying firearms was not part of his bail conditions, incredible! I hadn't realised that.

http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/arti...orius-should-not-have-had-a-gun/#.U_O55WPp-No
Some police sources have questioned how Paralympic champion Oscar Pistorius could have been allowed to own a gun, given his history of domestic violence, in the wake of news that he has been charged with murdering Reeva Steenkamp on Thursday morning.A senior police officer reacted with surprise yesterday morning when he heard of reports that Pistorius had shot his girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp at his Silver Lakes home in Pretoria. He said that the Blade Runner should not have been allowed to own a firearm with his history of domestic violence.

I also read that part of his bail was no alcohol, which Roux asked to be revoked as part of his bail conditions and it was, --so that's probably why he ended up out at that nightclub during the Trial as he was able to drink, - this guy's got off so lightly hasn't he, disgraceful.

 

[buntspecht]

please give me a hint. How are you reading the posts?
I go backwards, and then I do a 'view original', then I came to a very long text of lux and veritas...
I only thank what I've read and because it takes me a long time reading and writing I thank for the work, not the meaning.

 

[Cherwell]

May I just clarify a point.

Pistorius has now been convicted of CH, not charged.
An accused is charged with an offence before trial, and if found guilty is convicted of an offence.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

please give me a hint. How are you reading the posts?
I go backwards, and then I do a 'view original', then I came to a very long text of lux and veritas...
I only thank what I've read and because it takes me a long time reading and writing I thank for the work, not the meaning.

I find the last unread post since logged in, but sometimes I've read the page backwards, gets a bit confusing though if it's more than a few posts.

 

[turaj]

No I didn't say "Gerrie Nel hardly used Reeva's name". turaj had claimed Nel ALWAYS used "Reeva" in referring to RS. I responded to turaj by saying "hardly". Meaning the claim was hardly true. Remember, the claim was ALWAYS, a claim that you heartily seconded, adding a slightly insulting "I don't know what trial you were watching". ALWAYS. That's a high and mighty claim. Think about it. To prove "always" is false, all I need is one counterexample. I provided loads of them. And I stand by my guess that in court proceedings Nel referred to RS more often as "the deceased" than "Reeva".

And, my friend, no: your google searches don't show anything. Of course [gerrie nel reeva] brings up zillions of hits; that has little to do with the proportion of Nel's "Reeva" vs. "the deceased" uttered in court.

I would add: This might be a telling instance of the fallibility of witness memory. You and I and turaj all watched the same trial. You have your memory of it, I have mine. I think I've shown I'm right about this one issue. I'm sure I would be wrong about others. It's healthy to ponder this.

Best, F.

Yes...of course always is too drastic...lets just say more often than not Gerrie Nel called her by name Reeva...most watching the trial would remember him saying that more often than anything else. Thanks F for explaining your reasoning...it gives us a clear understanding of how you look at things and what is important to you...it now makes much more sense that you can in any way defend the verdict...I

 

[jay-jay]

I came across in my web wanderings of today. Desmond Nair doesn't seem to have ever included any restriction on OP carrying a gun in the original bail conditions. I am gobsmacked! A potential killer allowed to keep his gun whilst on bail for murder! We know he has been allowed to continue on those revised bail conditions as agreed by Judge Bam (until sentence) .

http://www.bdlive.co.za/national/2013/03/28/pistorius-succeeds-in-bid-to-have-bail-conditions-waived

.. and why on earth was this condition set aside??

The conditions Judge Bam set aside were:


• that he not be charged with an offence relating to violence against women while on bail; and