Discussion between the verdict and sentencing

[lithgow1]

"... the voice I heard I know for ..."

The only thing she could have been going to say here was "I know for a fact" and this is because she heard a man's voice and could compare it to a woman’s voice that she’d also heard.

Why would you hear a man shouting for help and then wonder "Where is the lady?" What lady? Why would she even assume there was a lady? You wouldn't, not unless you knew for a fact that you'd already heard a man's voice and a woman's voice as well. There's something very, very wrong here IMO.

Not only is there something 'wrong' Judgejudi in that the evidence makes no sense in and of itself (as you say, why think/assume 'where is the lady?') there is also something very wrong when people are prepared to give evidence that appears tailored to benefit a particular party, in this case a man who blasted a young woman to death in a tiny toilet cubicle, especially if they heard things that do not gell with his account of the night. I can see him being amoral enough to have somehow shed any feelings of responsibility but how do these people, 'ordinary' citizens same as the State earwitnesses, live with themselves if they are being selective in what they tell the court?

 

[mrjitty]

Hi All

Decided to sign up after lurking for some time. Really interested in timeline and Mr Fossils work.

Re the 15mins

We lived with a domestic abuser downstairs from us in our apartment block for a year. There was violence/standover virtually every weekend.

I can promise you 15mins is nothing in the context of DV

You get some fighting, screaming, yelling. Sounds of things being broken up.

Then you can get a lull for a minute, 10 mins, half an hr. Then craziness again. Maybe crying for half an hour.

The reality of DV is not like a crime drama with a rapid incident. It can go the whole night, or until the assault. Then comes the tears and the fake contrition.

It became the policy of all the neighbours to ring the cops immediately, in the hope that the poor girl would not be killed or violently beaten before they got there.

However the first time or two it happened, we waited a long time before calling.

You are uncertain. You don't want to make trouble. Has it stopped? Probably someone else already called. The sounds are not continuous.

Eventually you hear something that makes you act. Shrieking. Something that sounds like blows. The judgement is utterly naive on this point IMO.

In my experience the women was also normally much louder than the man. The screams, crying etc carries better.

 

[Mr Fossil]

Ok, I've copied my 'Witness testimony spreadsheet' to google docs to share and allowed comments. I'm just waiting for it to be tested (I've pm'd you jimmy73) and then I'll share the link and explain it. I'll also put up links to latest phone usage charts.

ETA: Managed to test it myself via another browser

 

[mrjitty]

Ok, I've copied my 'Witness testimony spreadsheet' to google docs to share and allowed comments. I'm just waiting for it to be tested (I've pm'd you jimmy73) and then I'll share the link and explain it. I'll also put up links to latest phone usage charts.

Hi Mr Fossil

I registered on a mission i hope your timeline can help me with!

My view is that there clearly are no "bangs" after Mr N's call to security at 3.16 (corroborated by Stipp)

Furthermore, there never were 4 bat strikes on the door. (Forensics + evidence of other damage in bathroom).

Given OPs version is a fairy tale, I am interested to understand the likely timeline in more detail.

In particular, I believe Johnson's call time is set by a clock that has not been reconciled to the call of the security log.

 

[jay-jay]

"... the voice I heard I know for ..."

The only thing she could have been going to say here was "I know for a fact" and this is because she heard a man's voice and could compare it to a woman’s voice that she’d also heard.

Why would you hear a man shouting for help and then wonder "Where is the lady?" What lady? Why would she even assume there was a lady? You wouldn't, not unless you knew for a fact that you'd already heard a man's voice and a woman's voice as well. There's something very, very wrong here IMO.

Your BIB .. I was going to say exactly that .. and in addition to it all being extremely odd, to go back to the original point made by G.bng that the Stipps (in the PT's timeline) didn't react quickly enough and call for help, well then CS is just as bad because she knew about 'the lady' and was wondering about her, yet still chose to pull the covers over her (and her dog) !

 

[jay-jay]

HOW did she know about the lady? She heard her scream, didn't she .. just doesn't want to say so.

 

[Cherwell]

Dang, I must have fell asleep during the part where CS said she heard a woman screaming in fear of her life for 12-15 minutes when I was doing the transcript of her testimony ?!

Seriously now, they are just not comparable. CS didn't hear anything more than a man calling "help, help, help" from an unknown direction, and even though it could I suppose be said she "hopped" back into bed, I don't think it was without some consternation, at least not according to her testimony:

CV: Ok. I'm sorry, my lady. I apologise. So I heard somebody shouting help 3 times. I then, first of all froze in my bed and I thought, oh my gosh, you know, something is wrong and the bark... the dogs were even like barking bit more. Errr. I then decided I need, I need to get up. I closed my sliding door because it sounded like something was wrong somewhere and I was scared somebody is going to climb maybe up my... onto my balcony and come into my bedroom. So I got, I roll out of my bed and I got up and I stood by my sliding door. First of all I dropped my blinds that were still tilted open and I then stood by the door and I le... and I opened it a little bit and I kept my ear there if I cou... to try and hear if I can't hear where, where did this sound come from, because I couldn't pinpoint where it was coming from because it was clear somebody needed help. I then... I couldn't hear anything. I closed my sliding door. I latched it. I then closed my blind and then I got back into my bed. I remember my heart was pounding so fast. I was very afraid. And, emm, my dogs were still very restless so I, I was first then sitting on my bed and trying to think, oh my gosh I don't know where this is coming from, and I don't know what to do. And then I was... tried to get my dogs closer to me again 'cos they kept on barking and they were really not... they didn't want to calm down. And then slowly but surely settled back into bed and pulled the covers over myself. And [01:36:19.06][01:36:19.10][01:36:19.12] my heart was going so fast and I kept on thinking, how am I going to fall asleep now after I heard that.. or I don't... I was so scared. And slowly but surely my heart settled again and I was laying down and I pulled the covers over me and then the dog was barking again and I had to go fetch her at the end of the bed and I was holding her just to try and quiet her down. And then I settled back into bed and I pulled the covers over myself and I was just lying there thinking, oh my gosh, I don't know what happened and I don't know how to help whoever's in trouble. And...

And a bit later:

CV: My lady, like I mentioned before, I tried to settle the dogs down, still on my bed, trying to get my own heart beat to slow down, and settle back in... under the covers with my dogs. I was lying in my bed thinking, oh my gosh, how am I going to sleep now because that, the voice I heard I know for... it sounded to me it's a man's voice. I could hear a man shouting meaning that there must be terrible trouble because where is the lady? I was then still lying on my bed thinking, I don't know where this is coming from, I don't know how to help. And how does one fall back to sleep after hearing something like that? And I was... in the end I settled back in, and then when I lie in my bed in my bedroom I can see my parent's bedroom on the far side and then I saw commotion in their room. The lights went on and I could hear they were awake. I then proceeded by standing up and walking towards my parent's room and telling my mom, mom I heard somebody shout help. Somebody is in trouble. And my mom then proceeded by saying, yes, Oscar phoned your dad. He shot Reeva, he thought she was an intruder. We then immediately... To my dad and I we knew, we had to go and how. So I went downstairs and I pulled my car out of the garage, so long, and waited for my dad in the street. I remember my foot was still like on... I couldn't even put the clutch in 'cos my leg, I couldn't get my leg still. And I was hooting and my dad then also came running out. Then we both were in my car and then I drove to Oscar's house.

And then add to that her young age and the obvious lack of life experience compared with the Stipps. So no, I think she is hysterical and a bit loopy but her failure is just not the same as hearing a woman screaming for her life for 12 minutes before calling for help. Not in my book, at least, and I would hope not in anybody of a certain age and intelligence.

Thank you so much for reminding us of Carice's testimony. It's highly suggestive, isn't it?

It sounds very much as though she heard a great deal more than she was willing to tell the court. But in her excited gabbling she almost let the cat out of the bag. I'm in no doubt at all that she heard a woman screaming, and that she knew it was a woman. And it was because the screaming had stopped that she realised there must be "terrible trouble" because the man was still shouting.

 

[Mr Fossil]

Here are links to the following spreadsheets in google docs:

Phone usage charts (3 tabs, one for each phone)

Witness testimony analysis

They are set up to share and allow comments, though I'm guessing you may need a gmail account to comment (only takes a few minutes to set up). If you'd rather post your thoughts on here that's fine or alternatively email me (montgomery.fossil@gmail.com) Please feel free to copy and do with them what you wish but I will generally only make changes that are based on firm evidence.

I've haven't used this facility before so it may need some tweaking!

Monty Fossil (in truth it took me longer to figure a name I liked that hadn't been used than to set the account and spreadsheets up!)

 

[jimmy73]

That is precisely why I was so happy when the graphic analysis I did of the timeline (based simply on call data and witness testimony) before the HOAs were out proved it could not have been Reeva screaming and therefore could only have been OP.

Because I can't think of anything worse than living the rest of my life believing the State's version, i.e. that for some FIFTEEN minutes (from 3:02 aprox per the State's HOAs based on Stipp's 2-3 min fast clock up until AFTER 3:17, per the State's HOAs based on Johnson's 3:16+58 second call) my daughter, according to the State's version, would have been screaming, terrified and petrified and in fear of her life and out of her mind. And if Reeva's parents don't come to realise that the Stipps timings must be wrong and the timeline proves they are, then her parents will have to live and die believing the State's version, i.e. that despite hearing shots and a woman's terrified and petrified screams, the Stipps took some 12 minutes before calling for help when had they called security within ONE, or at the very most TWO minutes of first hearing the screams Reeva could well be alive today. I mean, compare the Stipp's actions with those of Johnson and Burger who called security within 4-5 mins of hearing a woman screaming and they hadn't even heard shots. Or even worse, compare the Stipps with Mr Nhlengethwa who called security within FIFTEEN to TWENTY SECONDS of only hearing a man crying, no shots, just a man crying. That is a good neighbour not the Stipps. I personally would never forgive the Stipps even though Dr Stipp later went to see if he could help but by then, after waiting TWELVE minutes listening to my daughter screaming for her life before calling for help I would have to say that was just too little too late. jmho.

Are you suggesting that at 3:02:00 on the nose, she heard gunshots and screams. This was not her testimony.

Anette Stipp said she woke up at 3:02. In her account, she was deciding whether to get a drink of water. She doesn't elaborate on how long this took and Nel doesn't enquire. It's my belief that whilst Anette Stipp may have woken from sleep at 3:02, the bangs may not have started until some minutes later. It is worth noting that Mrs Stipp wouldn't have had any great reason to look at the clock again until after the commotion started.

None of this negates the Stipp's testimony of hearing terrified female screams, nor the lights being on or seeing Pistorious in the bathroom.

I think the transfer of blame here is pretty low, and it's telling how many people that side with the defence wish to discredit the Stipps and their testimonies.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Here are links to the following spreadsheets in google docs:

Phone usage charts (3 tabs, one for each phone)

Witness testimony analysis

They are set up to share and allow comments, though I'm guessing you may need a gmail account to comment (only takes a few minutes to set up). If you'd rather post your thoughts on here that's fine or alternatively email me (montgomery.fossil@gmail.com) Please feel free to copy and do with them what you wish but I will generally only make changes that are based on firm evidence.

I've haven't used this facility before so it may need some tweaking!

Monty Fossil (in truth it took me longer to figure a name I liked that hadn't been used than to set the account and spreadsheets up!)

Hi there Monty

These are most impressive charts. You've worked really hard and it shows. So clear and easy to read. Thank you for taking so much time and trouble. :clap: :takeabow: :tyou:

 

[east2west]

It's possible that the screaming heard during shots 2-4 is OP screaching...like we heard those grown men do in the Zombie Stopper video (squeals of joy brought on by adrenaline while blasting out a watermelon). I'm still convinced bat/gun/bat. Moo.

 

[AW2B]

I'm reading through Judge Masipa's judgement again, I'm a glutton for punishment..... so this really irks me...

1. At the time of the incident there was no one else in the accused’s
house except the accused and the deceased. Therefore it could only
have been one of them who screamed or cried out loud.

Frank Chiziweni was sleeping on the premises, I can't understand why J Masipa discounts him. Does not compute. No matter he claims to have heard and seen nothing, he has to be accounted for otherwise it's an misrepresentation of the facts of that night, so what else is missing? It looks to be a sham, smoke and mirrors. :banghead: JMO

http://www.pod702.co.za/Eyewitnessnews/docs/140915OPJudgment.pdf

I agree..

IMO..there is no question Chiziweni must have heard everything..however he worked for Pistorius..to me..his silence is very telling. If what he heard exonerates Pistorius.. rest assured he would have been on the witness stand. I think the prosecution didn't call him because they realized that he will keep saying "I didn't hear anything". However, I don't know if the prosecution could legally subject Chiziweni to a hearing test...if yes..they should have ordered it and should have called him as a hostile witness..

 

[mrjitty]

Here are links to the following spreadsheets in google docs:

Phone usage charts (3 tabs, one for each phone)

Witness testimony analysis

They are set up to share and allow comments, though I'm guessing you may need a gmail account to comment (only takes a few minutes to set up). If you'd rather post your thoughts on here that's fine or alternatively email me (montgomery.fossil@gmail.com) Please feel free to copy and do with them what you wish but I will generally only make changes that are based on firm evidence.

I've haven't used this facility before so it may need some tweaking!

Monty Fossil (in truth it took me longer to figure a name I liked that hadn't been used than to set the account and spreadsheets up!)

Wow - amazing stuff!

I am just stunned at the poor handling of the GPRS data in Court.

Yes it could be app initiated - however it also could be human initiated.

So if you have a witness hearing a man and a woman arguing, and you've got a GPRS connection going on with the guys phone - you now have two strong pieces of evidence that he is awake.

Neither by themselves is conclusive. Yet together they are powerful.

Then when you add the gastric evidence that Reeva was likely also awake - surely as a question of fact - it is more likely than not that OP was awake.

In particular, individual facts and inferences in the case do not have to be proven beyond reasonable doubt - that is the overall burden.

Surely therefore, the Court ought to have found as a question of fact, that OP was indeed awake at 1.48am

 

[Cherwell]

IMO..there is no question Chiziweni must have heard everything..however he worked for Pistorius..to me..his silence is very telling. If what he heard exonerates Pistorius.. rest assured he would have been on the witness stand. I think the prosecution didn't call him because they realized that he will keep saying "I didn't hear anything". However, I don't know if the prosecution could legally subject Chiziweni to a hearing test...if yes..they should have ordered it and should have called him as a hostile witness..

At the very least the prosecution should have established that he was in the house. That in itself is a telling fact.
But on the contrary, it was stated more than once that there were only two people in the house. It's inexplicable.
As far as I recall, the only reference in court to Frank was made by the blabbermouth Carice.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Here are links to the following spreadsheets in google docs:

Phone usage charts (3 tabs, one for each phone)

Witness testimony analysis

They are set up to share and allow comments, though I'm guessing you may need a gmail account to comment (only takes a few minutes to set up). If you'd rather post your thoughts on here that's fine or alternatively email me (montgomery.fossil@gmail.com) Please feel free to copy and do with them what you wish but I will generally only make changes that are based on firm evidence.

I've haven't used this facility before so it may need some tweaking!

Monty Fossil (in truth it took me longer to figure a name I liked that hadn't been used than to set the account and spreadsheets up!)

Pretty impressive Monty Fossil. :tyou: So there was 5 min connection just before 2 am. :thinking:

It's sad reading the whatsapps again, Reeva didn't want to go over, OP was a bear with a sore head or a 'slow burn' as Roux explained.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Hi Mr Fossil

I registered on a mission i hope your timeline can help me with!

My view is that there clearly are no "bangs" after Mr N's call to security at 3.16 (corroborated by Stipp)

Furthermore, there never were 4 bat strikes on the door. (Forensics + evidence of other damage in bathroom).

Given OPs version is a fairy tale, I am interested to understand the likely timeline in more detail.

In particular, I believe Johnson's call time is set by a clock that has not been reconciled to the call of the security log.

:welcome: mrjitty, we're glad to have more sleuthers.

Yep, it's a fairy tale, OP being the big bad wolf yet he sees himself as the valiant handsome prince, putting himself between danger and Reeva. :whistle:

 

[mrjitty]

I'm reading through Judge Masipa's judgement again, I'm a glutton for punishment..... so this really irks me...

1. At the time of the incident there was no one else in the accused’s
house except the accused and the deceased. Therefore it could only
have been one of them who screamed or cried out loud.

Frank Chiziweni was sleeping on the premises, I can't understand why J Masipa discounts him. Does not compute. No matter he claims to have heard and seen nothing, he has to be accounted for otherwise it's an misrepresentation of the facts of that night, so what else is missing? It looks to be a sham, smoke and mirrors. :banghead: JMO

http://www.pod702.co.za/Eyewitnessnews/docs/140915OPJudgment.pdf

Wow!

That is a shocking error. That would be grounds for a mistrial in NZ as clearly Frank is a person who could cry out.

oh dear.

I am simply embarrassed at the shameful quality of the written judgement.

In NZ you don't get to be a High Court Judge unless you have 20+ years as an advocate. Often you worked as a crown prosecutor. Usually you were a partner at your firm before you became a QC.

This judgement was extremely poor in technical quality. Failing to discuss key reasoning. Failing to address key submissions. Assuming matters that needed to be inferred or were at issue. Shocking errors of law like how to interpret intention in respect of possession.

Dear oh dear.

 

[mrjitty]

I agree..

IMO..there is no question Chiziweni must have heard everything..however he worked for Pistorius..to me..his silence is very telling. If what he heard exonerates Pistorius.. rest assured he would have been on the witness stand. I think the prosecution didn't call him because they realized that he will keep saying "I didn't hear anything". However, I don't know if the prosecution could legally subject Chiziweni to a hearing test...if yes..they should have ordered it and should have called him as a hostile witness..

IMO he would have been a non-cooperative or hostile witness.

Probably the prosecution gambled that the defence would call him and then the defence gambled not to call him at all.

Then the Judge embarrassed herself by forgetting he was there.

This is really such a laughable error that I am struggling to believe it could be written in the verdict in black and white.

 

[Cherwell]

The judge was never told he was there, though. Frank's presence was never put into evidence.

 

[AW2B]

I just read this article.
Anette Stipp was referring to Chiziweni?! Did he initially said that he heard a woman screaming then retracted that statement later?! Or was she referring to a female domestic worker?
It's confusing because the article made reference to her husband's statement regarding Chiziweni..then talked about Anette's statement regarding "THE" domestic worker giving the impression that she was also talking about Chiziweni..

Most of you are way more knowledgeable about this case than me..so who was she talking about?


BIB

Dr Johan Stipp, a neighbour and radiologist who gave evidence about going to Pistorius' house to offer medical assistance after the shooting, made mention of a “servant” who lived on his property.
His wife Anette Stipp said the domestic worker also heard a woman screaming around the time of the shooting, but she was never called to give evidence.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...s-at-Pistorius-home-on-night-of-shooting.html