Colin de France
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I can imagine her screaming and waving the jeans at the same time to attract attention but you could well be right.
Discussion Thread #60 - 14.9.12 ~ the appeal~
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JudgeJudi
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This is an edited extract from The Trials of Oscar Pistorius: Chase Your Shadow by John Carlin
When OP was 17, with a year and a half of secondary school to complete, he competed in the South African disabled games. Suddenly, he was all over the news, did a TV advertisement, started receiving sponsorship money, bought his first car and discovered his love of speed on the road.
Bill Schroder, his headmaster, was the law at Pretoria Boys. Inevitably, during OPs final year at school, after Athens, the two clashed. First, over a sponsored car that OP had received. Schroder ordered him to get rid of it. OP protested at first, but then grudgingly acquiesced.
The second time, OP informed Schroder that he had to take time off from school to take part in an athletics competition in Finland. Schroder told him he was not going. Apart from the principle of the matter, there was a practical reason Schroder didnt want to let OP take time off from school he had a duty to discharge as a dormitory prefect. In a room full of junior children, he was the one in charge, his job was to double up as mentor and enforcer of discipline.
After he killed Reeva, word spread among those who chose to believe that he had killed her deliberately. At school, in his capacity as dormitory prefect, he had been a violent bully. Rumours did reach some teachers that he had a violent temper that sometimes he flipped, as one of them put it and that he threatened the younger boys.
But that was hardly news at Pretoria Boys. Heavy-handedness was the norm. Bullying went with the territory, and for boarders it was especially tough. Prefects were sergeant majors with license to subject their subordinates to all manner of indignities, not excluding physical violence to a degree that might be judged illegal in civil society.
It was considered unpardonable among the boys to go and tell the teachers when someone had done something to you that you did not like. But while the boarders never sneaked when they were at school, during the holidays some did confide in their parents.
In the all-male world of Pretoria Boys, the students enjoyed a freedom to inflict harm that they might not have found in the world beyond the school walls.
The danger was that they would fail to behave within legal limits once they left as in the case of one former pupil who left the school in the 1980s, an especially unruly boy who used to break the unofficial rule that fighting was fine but you did not kick someone when he was down. He ended up killing his girlfriend, a former beauty queen, and then himself.
http://www.citypress.co.za/news/oscars-dance-destiny/
Well, now we know that he had a violent temper at the age of 17, and possibly earlier. As a prefect, no doubt his propensity for controlling others was already well established. As OP was a boarder, you can bet your bottom dollar he was right in his element. The penultimate paragraph just makes me shudder.
Something else to add to the list I thought was finalised.
When OP was 17, with a year and a half of secondary school to complete, he competed in the South African disabled games. Suddenly, he was all over the news, did a TV advertisement, started receiving sponsorship money, bought his first car and discovered his love of speed on the road.
Bill Schroder, his headmaster, was the law at Pretoria Boys. Inevitably, during OPs final year at school, after Athens, the two clashed. First, over a sponsored car that OP had received. Schroder ordered him to get rid of it. OP protested at first, but then grudgingly acquiesced.
The second time, OP informed Schroder that he had to take time off from school to take part in an athletics competition in Finland. Schroder told him he was not going. Apart from the principle of the matter, there was a practical reason Schroder didnt want to let OP take time off from school he had a duty to discharge as a dormitory prefect. In a room full of junior children, he was the one in charge, his job was to double up as mentor and enforcer of discipline.
After he killed Reeva, word spread among those who chose to believe that he had killed her deliberately. At school, in his capacity as dormitory prefect, he had been a violent bully. Rumours did reach some teachers that he had a violent temper that sometimes he flipped, as one of them put it and that he threatened the younger boys.
But that was hardly news at Pretoria Boys. Heavy-handedness was the norm. Bullying went with the territory, and for boarders it was especially tough. Prefects were sergeant majors with license to subject their subordinates to all manner of indignities, not excluding physical violence to a degree that might be judged illegal in civil society.
It was considered unpardonable among the boys to go and tell the teachers when someone had done something to you that you did not like. But while the boarders never sneaked when they were at school, during the holidays some did confide in their parents.
In the all-male world of Pretoria Boys, the students enjoyed a freedom to inflict harm that they might not have found in the world beyond the school walls.
The danger was that they would fail to behave within legal limits once they left as in the case of one former pupil who left the school in the 1980s, an especially unruly boy who used to break the unofficial rule that fighting was fine but you did not kick someone when he was down. He ended up killing his girlfriend, a former beauty queen, and then himself.
http://www.citypress.co.za/news/oscars-dance-destiny/
Well, now we know that he had a violent temper at the age of 17, and possibly earlier. As a prefect, no doubt his propensity for controlling others was already well established. As OP was a boarder, you can bet your bottom dollar he was right in his element. The penultimate paragraph just makes me shudder.
Something else to add to the list I thought was finalised.
Do we even know for a fact that they were RS's? I know her mom seems to imply they were, but then apparently so was the bag that OP's sis stole from the crime scene... dang, now I'm really wondering what all may have left the scene in that.
If it's true that he and JE may have had plans for that evening, perhaps she had popped by to drop off her overnight bag before she went off to do whatever until OP was free while RS while was out doing her shopping etc in the early afternoon, before she told OP she was going to stick around until 6pm. When she got home she could have found JE's stuff(jeans etc) and waited to hash it out with OP in person(instead of over the phone when he'd called from their friend's, thus his decision not to go out with the boys after all) and not to make dinner for him but to tell him they were over ... then the chase would have been back on for OP to get her to stay and be a good girl like all his ex's, or shut her up.
D
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I could imagine this scenario, but then again the question: Who is listed in the logbook of Silver Woods security guard, are there other names than RS? Nobody has asked and unfortunately nobody will ask now. Like nobody will ask Frankie, the sleeping housekeeper. - I despair!
JudgeJudi
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For me, this was the most dramatic part of the entire trial. I'll never forget those 31 seconds. It was an eternity. I'm sure every single person watching around the world held their collective breaths. I can't help wondering if he was re-living that dreadful moment for the first time and his mind was in another place as he remembered her agonised screams.
Colin de France
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If the first shot wasn't intended to kill the last three were ?
Starmelody
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Regarding the jeans outside the bathroom window.
I've been wondering about this too. One scenario could be: reeva attempts to put on the first pair of jeans in the bedroom. Oscar grabs them and throws them to the floor. She then grabs another pair from her bag and runs to the bathroom to put them on. Oscar follows her and grabs them off her again and throws them out of the bathroom window. She then runs to the toilet and locks herself in. He kicks the metal plate on the bath in anger and then rushes to get his gun.
Just a possibility.
I've been wondering about this too. One scenario could be: reeva attempts to put on the first pair of jeans in the bedroom. Oscar grabs them and throws them to the floor. She then grabs another pair from her bag and runs to the bathroom to put them on. Oscar follows her and grabs them off her again and throws them out of the bathroom window. She then runs to the toilet and locks herself in. He kicks the metal plate on the bath in anger and then rushes to get his gun.
Just a possibility.
Starmelody
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these are some of the key points
- something triggered a prolonged argument that ran into the early hours of the morning and delayed dinner. (Such as changes OP was making to the contract). The reason I believe it was a prolonged argument is because of the food contents in reevas stomach ( indicating she had eaten around 1 am). She ate late, so that indicates they had argued all night and not had time to eat earlier. I know that when I have had big arguments with my partner, the whole night is delayed and dinner is not eaten or eaten very late. It may have started off as a discussion between the 2 of them and escalated. From listening to him on the stand in court, he seems the type to not give in and just try to prove his point.
- things were thrown around in the bedroom ( jeans, bed cover)
- jeans may have been thrown out of the window
- bath plate kicked in rage
- 2 blackberry phones (that had not been used for a long time) were placed in the bathroom - obviously planted there to detract from the missing phone. Very suspicious. A give away that he was lying.
- something triggered a prolonged argument that ran into the early hours of the morning and delayed dinner. (Such as changes OP was making to the contract). The reason I believe it was a prolonged argument is because of the food contents in reevas stomach ( indicating she had eaten around 1 am). She ate late, so that indicates they had argued all night and not had time to eat earlier. I know that when I have had big arguments with my partner, the whole night is delayed and dinner is not eaten or eaten very late. It may have started off as a discussion between the 2 of them and escalated. From listening to him on the stand in court, he seems the type to not give in and just try to prove his point.
- things were thrown around in the bedroom ( jeans, bed cover)
- jeans may have been thrown out of the window
- bath plate kicked in rage
- 2 blackberry phones (that had not been used for a long time) were placed in the bathroom - obviously planted there to detract from the missing phone. Very suspicious. A give away that he was lying.
Colin de France
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I have always been puzzled about the phone which was held back for two weeks before being handed into the police, this phone was sent to the makers to see whether information had been wiped off regarding calls, did this apply to photos taken on the phone ? To get to the point, was OP taking photos of RS without her knowledge to possibly be used later and did she catch on ? Far fetched but so is murder.
D
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http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/20...-and-red-velvet-cake-in-sa-courts-during-2014
Fraud, sex, murder and red velvet cake in SA courts during 2014
Another high-profile case that dominated dinner table conversation was the murder trial of fallen hero Oscar Pistorius.
The country's first televised trial proved to be the best soapie in the land as many took leave from work due to "Oscar fever”.
The scrutiny of the world's media and the pressure of live television proved too much for a court interpreter, who refused to return after the first day. The interpreter, who shall remain anonymous to prevent embarrassment, and subsequent interpreters fumbled over their words and left witnesses lost in translation. Some witnesses settled for doing their own translation while others repeatedly corrected the interpreters.
Fraud, sex, murder and red velvet cake in SA courts during 2014
Another high-profile case that dominated dinner table conversation was the murder trial of fallen hero Oscar Pistorius.
The country's first televised trial proved to be the best soapie in the land as many took leave from work due to "Oscar fever”.
The scrutiny of the world's media and the pressure of live television proved too much for a court interpreter, who refused to return after the first day. The interpreter, who shall remain anonymous to prevent embarrassment, and subsequent interpreters fumbled over their words and left witnesses lost in translation. Some witnesses settled for doing their own translation while others repeatedly corrected the interpreters.
D
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http://www.chron.com/sports/article/Ode-to-sports-in-2014-When-mayhem-won-the-gold-5985442.php
Ode to sports in 2014: When mayhem won the gold
Russia passes the flag to Korea —
So much for the luge, on to Crimea.
Michael Sam comes out, hailed for bold action.
The NFL thinks this a "distraction"?
At Daytona, Junior reigns in the rain.
Phil Jackson grabs a Manhattan-bound train.
Pistorius goes to trial, where he grieves
And he sobs and he sweats and shakes and heaves.
March Madness concludes and a Husky roars
For king/queen UConn — all roads lead to Storrs.
Ode to sports in 2014: When mayhem won the gold
Russia passes the flag to Korea —
So much for the luge, on to Crimea.
Michael Sam comes out, hailed for bold action.
The NFL thinks this a "distraction"?
At Daytona, Junior reigns in the rain.
Phil Jackson grabs a Manhattan-bound train.
Pistorius goes to trial, where he grieves
And he sobs and he sweats and shakes and heaves.
March Madness concludes and a Husky roars
For king/queen UConn — all roads lead to Storrs.
JudgeJudi
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Jaco van Vuuren was the courtroom sketch artist during OPs trial. He was formerly an international pole vaulter. Since 1992 hes been coaching pole vaulters at the University of Pretoria, where his path first crossed with OP who was 16 at the time.
In early February 2013, he had a drink with OP to discuss helping the sprinters charity projects for amputees in Africa. At about 6.15am on Valentines Day he was woken by a phone call from a Beeld reporter who said, Did you hear what your friend did? Being sarcastic I said, What friend, where? He said, No, Oscars shot his girlfriend. On the track that day it was obviously a feeling of disbelief. It was indescribable. He trains there every day and he shot his girlfriend.
Van Vuuren believes OPs version of events, but adds a new, intriguing twist. The one things that not mentioned in court, and we still dont know why its not been brought up: he was as nervous as hell a week before that happened. He was on the track and I heard this from another Olympian who trained with him. He was as nervous as hell as if something was bound to happen. He believes there are secrets still to tell.
Van Vuuren, who hopes to sketch him in prison, relays a story he heard from a warden: The biggest problem now for Oscar is the top brass at correctional services coming into his cell day and night and taking selfies with him. Theres no control and the lower ranks cant chase them out, so Oscar is annoyed.
Van Vuuren said Pistoriuss aunt called him recently because the 28-year-old wants to start sketching in his prison cell and is seeking tips.
He takes it day by day. We have to know, whoever he is, whatever he did, he is probably a bigger survivor than all of us together, looking at what he went through in his life".
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/31/pistorius-track-mate-drawing-court-van-vuuren
Once the dust settles, I'll bet there are plenty more secrets yet to come out.
IIRC, when OP was arrested for assaulting Cassidy Taylor-Memmory and taken to the police station, the SAPS were more interested in having their photo taken with him than dealing with the charge. So now he's in prison and the top brass want selfies with him????? The more things change, the more they stay the same.
In early February 2013, he had a drink with OP to discuss helping the sprinters charity projects for amputees in Africa. At about 6.15am on Valentines Day he was woken by a phone call from a Beeld reporter who said, Did you hear what your friend did? Being sarcastic I said, What friend, where? He said, No, Oscars shot his girlfriend. On the track that day it was obviously a feeling of disbelief. It was indescribable. He trains there every day and he shot his girlfriend.
Van Vuuren believes OPs version of events, but adds a new, intriguing twist. The one things that not mentioned in court, and we still dont know why its not been brought up: he was as nervous as hell a week before that happened. He was on the track and I heard this from another Olympian who trained with him. He was as nervous as hell as if something was bound to happen. He believes there are secrets still to tell.
Van Vuuren, who hopes to sketch him in prison, relays a story he heard from a warden: The biggest problem now for Oscar is the top brass at correctional services coming into his cell day and night and taking selfies with him. Theres no control and the lower ranks cant chase them out, so Oscar is annoyed.
Van Vuuren said Pistoriuss aunt called him recently because the 28-year-old wants to start sketching in his prison cell and is seeking tips.
He takes it day by day. We have to know, whoever he is, whatever he did, he is probably a bigger survivor than all of us together, looking at what he went through in his life".
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/31/pistorius-track-mate-drawing-court-van-vuuren
Once the dust settles, I'll bet there are plenty more secrets yet to come out.
IIRC, when OP was arrested for assaulting Cassidy Taylor-Memmory and taken to the police station, the SAPS were more interested in having their photo taken with him than dealing with the charge. So now he's in prison and the top brass want selfies with him????? The more things change, the more they stay the same.
JudgeJudi
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Not exactly the same. He knew after the first shot and Reeva's agonised screams that she'd been injured, and then there was utter silence after the following 3 shots. It was now safe for him to go and do whatever he wanted - not that he could say that in court, and I appreciate you were being facetious. What a pity didn't Nel address this. What lame excuse could OP have come up with to answer that?
Starmelody
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I do recall Nel questioning OP as to why he didn't check out the window for more intruders after he fired his gun. I will have to go back and check to make sure- but I do remember something along these lines.
Colin de France
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Of course......it was the difference between the reaction of RS after the first shot and the forth which allowed him to go back into the bedroom in complete security, he knew fully well there was no way that she was going to come out, if this theory holds up then murder it is even if there is a doubt about the intentions of the first shot. For the last three he shot her knowing where she was.
AJ_DS
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I was analyzing it from OP's version (the fabricated one) where the window plays a crucial role : it is heard opening, slamming, is the entry point of at least 1 intruder which hid in the toilet and is the the entry point of possibly more intruders.
In what really happened, the only part the window plays is that it provides the means by which OP will fabricate the intruder story to cover up the fact that he deliberately shot Reeva
JudgeJudi
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AJ, I absolutely understood you were referring to his version. I should have made that clearer.
Colin de France
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...another incoherent declaration from OP ....
JudgeJudi
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I've reached the point where I believe both brothers have a death wish. OP is prepared to drive twice the legal limit even after his boat crash, and Carl is a sandwich short of a picnic. Just read this:
Carl Pistorius ‏@carlpistorius
This year is going to be MASSIVE for us @Lysle_Turner @Phill_Cruize! Lysle... we'll have 2 rename from Lyslo to SUPERNOVA ��.
#bandofbrothers
Carl Pistorius ‏@carlpistorius
The mountaineer is @Lysle_Turner, he's invited me on his Everest 4 HD climb. Stil can't feel my legs, but @Phill_Cruize can get me in shape
He's got to be out of his mind. I know he's summited Mt Kili but if he thinks that's like climbing Everest he's got another think coming. He can't feel his legs!!!! and he's going in 3 months!!!!! Maybe its a case of big-noting and hell only go as far as the lowest base camp. I can't imagine in my wildest dreams that his doctors would approve of such an undertaking. Not only is he putting his own life at risk but what about his companions. Oh, thats right, others dont matter. Just like the other person involved in his car accident.
STILL no word about that other driver. Still no word on the results of Carls breath test. Still no word from the SAPS as to who was at fault. Speculation ... Carl was at fault. Why? Because the next thing we hear is that Arnolds rhino horns go missing from that large walk-in safe and STILL no word on that. Totally unbelievable.
Carl's accident was on August 2. Approx. 7 weeks later Arnold had his rhino horns stolen. News of this surfaced on October 6. How very convenient that we've heard nothing further about either incident. Those rhino horns would be worth more than enough to buy silence and compensation. I'm afraid that when it comes to this family, I don't believe in coincidences. They lie, steal and cover up anything and everything to protect the family name and they have the power, will, influence and money to do pretty much as they please. One imagines they have plenty of rugs in Arnold's home with all the dirt that has to be swept underneath them. :tantrum:
Carl Pistorius ‏@carlpistorius
This year is going to be MASSIVE for us @Lysle_Turner @Phill_Cruize! Lysle... we'll have 2 rename from Lyslo to SUPERNOVA ��.
#bandofbrothers
Carl Pistorius ‏@carlpistorius
The mountaineer is @Lysle_Turner, he's invited me on his Everest 4 HD climb. Stil can't feel my legs, but @Phill_Cruize can get me in shape
He's got to be out of his mind. I know he's summited Mt Kili but if he thinks that's like climbing Everest he's got another think coming. He can't feel his legs!!!! and he's going in 3 months!!!!! Maybe its a case of big-noting and hell only go as far as the lowest base camp. I can't imagine in my wildest dreams that his doctors would approve of such an undertaking. Not only is he putting his own life at risk but what about his companions. Oh, thats right, others dont matter. Just like the other person involved in his car accident.
STILL no word about that other driver. Still no word on the results of Carls breath test. Still no word from the SAPS as to who was at fault. Speculation ... Carl was at fault. Why? Because the next thing we hear is that Arnolds rhino horns go missing from that large walk-in safe and STILL no word on that. Totally unbelievable.
Carl's accident was on August 2. Approx. 7 weeks later Arnold had his rhino horns stolen. News of this surfaced on October 6. How very convenient that we've heard nothing further about either incident. Those rhino horns would be worth more than enough to buy silence and compensation. I'm afraid that when it comes to this family, I don't believe in coincidences. They lie, steal and cover up anything and everything to protect the family name and they have the power, will, influence and money to do pretty much as they please. One imagines they have plenty of rugs in Arnold's home with all the dirt that has to be swept underneath them. :tantrum:
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