Discussion Thread #60 - 14.9.12 ~ the appeal~

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
Status
Not open for further replies.
I agree with all the above. I believe Ulrich Roux said some time ago that it would probably take about 18 months from conviction. I've also read where it can be anywhere between 12 to 18 months. Nathi Mncube, the prosecution spokesman, said he hopes it will be expedited but acknowledged that the process can take a long time. So it's just a case of waiting now.

I had to laugh when I read this:

“When the Appellate Division is approached in a criminal matter, the trial judge who convicted the accused must prepare a report giving his or her opinion upon the case in order to assist the Appellate Division to reach a just decision.

For example, it may be necessary for the Appellate Division to know what was in the mind of the trial judge at the time of the hearing so that it can decide whether he or she was right or wrong”.

Good luck with the appeal court judges trying to work out what was in Masipa’s mind. She’s not likely to report “Mr Pistorius is a double amputee, and he was on his stumps when he heard a noise. He was terrified that an intruder had broken into his home. He said it was an accident, a mistake. He was so remorseful. I’ve never seen such a broken man. He cried while he tried to save her life and cried all the way through the trial. He even retched into a bucket for days on end. His whole life has now been completely destroyed. He’s gone from being an icon to an ex-con. That in itself is punishment for his crime. I was just trying to ensure that my favourite murderer spent the minimum amount of time in prison because I didn’t want to punish him twice”.

http://www.legalcity.net/Index.cfm?fuseaction=RIGHTS.article&ArticleID=6400430


I almost kinda sorta feel sorry for Masipa. She’s gonna have her work cut out for her. Trying to explain the hot mess that was her verdict should be very enlightening. LOL
 
[...] Good luck with the appeal court judges trying to work out what was in Masipa’s mind. She’s not likely to report “Mr Pistorius is a double amputee, and he was on his stumps when he heard a noise. He was terrified that an intruder had broken into his home. He said it was an accident, a mistake. He was so remorseful. I’ve never seen such a broken man. He cried while he tried to save her life and cried all the way through the trial. He even retched into a bucket for days on end. His whole life has now been completely destroyed. He’s gone from being an icon to an ex-con. That in itself is punishment for his crime. I was just trying to ensure that my favourite murderer spent the minimum amount of time in prison because I didn’t want to punish him twice”.


Masipa’s gonna have a really tough time trying to explain her “punish him twice” comment.

At that point in the trial, when exactly had OP been punished even once, never mind twice?! Not only will she have to explain what the first “punishment” was but explain why an in-patient mental evaluation referral would be a second “punishment”, not to mention why she deviated from state-mandated procedure by allowing him to be a part-time out-patient. (Apparently, it’s acceptable to punish all other criminal defendants with in-patient evaluations.)

That she clearly believed OP was already being punished even before the trial was over shows blatant, damning bias.

A guilty conscience and/or alleged “remorse” doesn’t constitute legal punishment. If it did, not one domestic abuser or murderer would ever spend one day in prison (remember, on their versions, they’re all totally innocent and so very sorry and they’ll never do it again. Waa.)
 
Hi everyone!

Does anyone perhaps have links to the transcript of Masipa's judgement and sentencing? Or has those never seen the light of day? I want to read it to my friends at an upcoming dinner party for *advertiser censored* and giggles.

Thanks in advance!
 
Masipa’s gonna have a really tough time trying to explain her “punish him twice” comment.

At that point in the trial, when exactly had OP been punished even once, never mind twice?! Not only will she have to explain what the first “punishment” was but explain why an in-patient mental evaluation referral would be a second “punishment”, not to mention why she deviated from state-mandated procedure by allowing him to be a part-time out-patient. (Apparently, it’s acceptable to punish all other criminal defendants with in-patient evaluations.)

That she clearly believed OP was already being punished even before the trial was over shows blatant, damning bias.

A guilty conscience and/or alleged “remorse” doesn’t constitute legal punishment. If it did, not one domestic abuser or murderer would ever spend one day in prison (remember, on their versions, they’re all totally innocent and so very sorry and they’ll never do it again. Waa.)

Are you Nel or Grant....................Nel or Grant :)
 
Hi everyone!

Does anyone perhaps have links to the transcript of Masipa's judgement and sentencing? Or has those never seen the light of day? I want to read it to my friends at an upcoming dinner party for *advertiser censored* and giggles.

Thanks in advance!

BiB !!

Your kidding right!

Please tell me your kidding........................................
 
Hi everyone!

Does anyone perhaps have links to the transcript of Masipa's judgement and sentencing? Or has those never seen the light of day? I want to read it to my friends at an upcoming dinner party for *advertiser censored* and giggles.

Thanks in advance!

Hi Apples, here's a link to the judgement https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/pmb-portals/behind-the-door/downloads/transcripts/judgment.pdf. I don't think I've seen a sentencing transcript published.
 
BRBM

Silence alone is never proof of guilt (as it should be). However, in certain circumstances, it does raise even more questions. On the flip side, spilling one’s guts is not proof of innocence, as OP illustrates.

OP felt 100% confident enough to voluntarily present a statement at his bail hearing - he was the only eye witness.

Carl doesn’t have that luxury as the accident was crawling with other parties and witnesses.

While defendants are certainly entitled to silence, I would think most innocent people would want to give their statement - what could possibly be the down side to a genuinely innocent person telling the truth up front?

Carl saw what happened at his brother’s trial. OP had to furiously backtrack, tailor and contradict himself after State’s witnesses nailed him to the wall. Carl wants to find out first what the other driver and witnesses said before he tells his “story”.

Alone, invoking one’s right to silence and not providing a statement wouldn’t necessarily be a big deal.
However, together with the ordinarily very vocal “Christian” Carl’s total media silence regarding the other (badly injured) driver, it paints a less than believable picture of his alleged innocence. His strategy is likely this: the less said the better. As they say, knowledge is power - and Carl wants every scrap he can get before he opens his mouth.


The fact remains Carl may genuinely and honestly believe he is not responsible for the accident BUT :

a) Carl may be incorrect due to his own bias (what he observed and remembered)

b) Carl may be correct and witnesses could still contradict him due to their own bias (what they observed and remembered)

… therefore, coming forward and volunteering an honest statement to investigators is pointless… it's a loose loose situation from Carl's point of view.

It's not like talking to a traffic cop who may or may not give a ticket depending on the explanations given and his mood.

"Everything you say can and will be used against you in a Court of Law"… what is the harm in remaining silent, waiting to see IF the State decides to charge you with a crime, waiting for discovery of the State's evidence against you, waiting for the advice of an attorney and making your statement under oath in front of a Judge ?

Yes... guilty persons may proceed in this manner to perjure themselves at Trial in the hopes of raising reasonable doubt to avoid a guilty verdict.

BUT… innocent individuals are also charged by the State…

Investigators are NOT questioning you to assist you… they want you to assist them by incriminating yourself… Police "protect and serve" society not individuals... and the best way to protect/serve society might be to prosecute you even if you genuinely know you are innocent.

Investigators :

- have access to all of the evidence
- consult with the State's attorney and various experts
- have a theory of what happened and a guilty person in mind (which may happen to be you)
- conduct the interview
- are authorized to lie and deceive you with false or incomplete information
- decide which question to ask and which not to ask
- are witnesses to the interview (2 of them for only 1 of you)
- write down themselves the content (Q&A) of the interview
- write a report of the interview
- are deemed de facto honest, credible and reliable witnesses
- etc...

Basically investigators have ALL the power and you have NONE… how is that fair ??

Plus, not all investigators are honest… and even honest ones can make mistakes… why would you trust a police officer to be honest and to not make any mistakes when it's your arse that is on the line ?

… even IF police officer is honest and doesn't make any mistakes, he may still build a case against you, have State charge you and testify against you in Court !!!

BiB… as per your question… there is absolutely NO upside whatsoever for genuinely innocent* person telling the truth up front to Police officers…

*How does one determine "genuine innocence" ?… If I personally believe I'm innocent ?… I could be correct and still be charged, convicted and sentenced … or I could be incorrect and never charged.

On a final note… not volunteering a statement to Police does NOT equate with a dishonest or guilty mind… just as pleading guilty and serving a sentence does NOT equate with contrition or amends


As for the kind of person Carl is… IMO he falls into the same category as OP : a very sorry excuse for a human being… individuals for which society would greatly benefit without.

As for religion… best to steer clear of this topic as my views are radical and may be offensive to some.
 
BiB !!

Your kidding right!

Please tell me your kidding........................................

Hi Allan!
Not kidding!! People don't believe me when I tell them about her ridiculous and bizarre reasoning in her judgement. So I'll read some of the excerpts and riveting conversations and/or hilarity may ensue. Especially that she simply dismissed all of the ear witnesses, and, more importantly, her reasoning that:
"Clearly he did not subjectively foresee
this as a possibility that he would kill the person behind the door, let
alone the deceased, as he thought she was in the bedroom at the time.
"

Page 50, Paragraph 20 on this link: https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/pmb-portals/behind-the-door/downloads/transcripts/judgment.pdf

Oh, and also this little gem:
"If the accused for example had awoken in the
middle of the night and in darkness saw a silhouette hovering next to his
bed and had in a panic grabbed his firearm and shot at that figure, only
to find that it was the deceased, his conduct would have been
understandable and perhaps excusable.
" - Page 55 on the same link above
 
Just a small example to illustrate my point…

Interview of Carl conducted by 2 Detectives :

(for sake of argument let us assume Carl is being honest and truthful)

Q : How fast were you driving ?

A : I don't remember exactly but I usually drive around the speed limit… so about 100-110 kph

Q : Do you know we have a video recording of your car taken by a traffic camera ?

A : No I didn't.

Q : The video shows you were driving between 160 and 170 kph… a video does not lie… do you wish to change your previous answer ?

A : …huh...

Q : Let me be perfectly honest with you… We have the traffic video, we have crash forensics, we have several witnesses… we can prove that you were going at least at 160 kph… we just want to help you but if you keep lying to us we just won't be able to help you… if you tell us the truth we can sway to State's attorney to take it easy on you… but if you insist on lying, the Judge will throw the book at you and you'll end up having to serve some prison time… and I don't see you fairing to well in prison amongst hardened criminals… you're not a criminal, are you ?

A : No.

Q : Exactly… you don't deserve to be incarcerated for a simple mistake… for being a little bit in a hurry to get back home… Am I right ?… So be honest with me, how fast were you driving ?

A : Like I said I don't remember but it's possible that when overtaking a truck I may have gone up to 130, 140 or maybe even 150 kph, I'm not sure… but it would have been just for a few seconds.

Interview notes written by the Detective :

Q : How fast were you driving ?

A : 100 kph.

Q : Do you know there are traffic cameras on the highway that record everything and can determine the speed of cars ?

A : No I didn't.

Q : Do you wish to change your previous answer ? How fast were you driving ?

A : 150 kph.

Interview notes signed by both Detectives

… Sometime after, Carl is charged with reckless driving

… in the evidence discovery, there are no traffic videos… crash forensics report indicates Carl's vehicle speed as "inconclusive"… only 1 witness statement indicates that Carl was "going faster than 100 kph when Carl passed him on the left"

… Carl reads the interview notes and tells his attorney : "This is not what I said… this is an incomplete transcript of what they asked and what I answered"

Suddenly Carl is in a very weak position… The 2 detectives will testify and back each other up with the interview notes as corroborating evidence :

1. That Carl can and does lie to authority figures… so Carl's credibility is pretty much shot

2. That Carl made a full admission that he was driving at 150 kph

Carl's attorney recommends a plea bargain because case is not winnable

Carl pleads guilty… sentence : 40 hours community service and 1 year suspension of drivers license… not so bad, right ?

… But it goes much further than that :

- The other driver in the accident launches a civil suit against Carl… he suffers back trauma, can't work and support his family… there is "proof" Carl was driving at 150 kph and he plead guilty to reckless driving

- Carl's car insurance premiums go through the roof

- Carl has a criminal record which will follow him the rest of his life

Now replace Carl with your son or your daughter… would you still advise them to volunteer a full and honest statement to police investigators ?
 
<Respectfully snipped>

Masipa’s gonna have a really tough time trying to explain her “punish him twice” comment.
At that point in the trial, when exactly had OP been punished even once, never mind twice?! Not only will she have to explain what the first “punishment” was but explain why an in-patient mental evaluation referral would be a second “punishment”, not to mention why she deviated from state-mandated procedure by allowing him to be a part-time out-patient. (Apparently, it’s acceptable to punish all other criminal defendants with in-patient evaluations.)

I'm not sure she'll have to explain any of these things to the appeal court. As the appeal is grounded on her misinterpretation of the law, I would think her report would basically centre on how she brought in a verdict of culpable homicide as opposed to dolus eventualis when her reasons for judgment supported DE. However, the appeal court judges will read the transcript in its entirety and I'd be surprised if they didn't draw different conclusions on a number of aspects, i.e. the ones you've mentioned and many others, particularly the ear witnesses (well, at least I certainly hope so). It can only be a good thing that there will be 3 or 5 judges assessing the proceedings in their entirety.

As so many aspects of the trial were hotly debated by leading lawyers, I'm sure the appeal court judges will find it an extremely interesting exercise, albeit a long one. As their conclusions will have far-reaching ramifications regarding the law, they're sure to give it their utmost care and consideration.
 
<Respectfully snipped>

I'm not sure she'll have to explain any of these things to the appeal court. As the appeal is grounded on her misinterpretation of the law, I would think her report would basically centre on how she brought in a verdict of culpable homicide as opposed to dolus eventualis when her reasons for judgment supported DE. However, the appeal court judges will read the transcript in its entirety and I'd be surprised if they didn't draw different conclusions on a number of aspects, i.e. the ones you've mentioned and many others, particularly the ear witnesses (well, at least I certainly hope so). It can only be a good thing that there will be 3 or 5 judges assessing the proceedings in their entirety.

As so many aspects of the trial were hotly debated by leading lawyers, I'm sure the appeal court judges will find it an extremely interesting exercise, albeit a long one. As their conclusions will have far-reaching ramifications regarding the law, they're sure to give it their utmost care and consideration.

Does the first instance Judge (Masipa in this case) have a role in the Appeals process ?

I was under the impression that the first instance Judge had absolutely nothing to do in the Appellate Court : i.e not present, not questioned, no report submitted, etc&#8230; the whole thing is between the Appellate Judge(s), the appellant's attorney and the respondent's attorney who use/debate the content of the official Court transcripts.
 
Does the first instance Judge (Masipa in this case) have a role in the Appeals process ?

I was under the impression that the first instance Judge had absolutely nothing to do in the Appellate Court : i.e not present, not questioned, no report submitted, etc&#8230; the whole thing is between the Appellate Judge(s), the appellant's attorney and the respondent's attorney who use/debate the content of the official Court transcripts.

As far as I'm aware she'll only supply the Court of Appeal with a report. Counsel will present heads of argument.

&#8220;When the Appellate Division is approached in a criminal matter, the trial judge who convicted the accused must prepare a report giving his or her opinion upon the case in order to assist the Appellate Division to reach a just decision.

http://www.legalcity.net/Index.cfm?fuseaction=RIGHTS.article&ArticleID=6400430
 
&#8220;The once proud athlete wept, trembled, howled, bent double and vomited as he listened to clinical details of how the hollow-tipped bullets he fired tore into the flesh of Steenkamp&#8221;. The trial started 13 months after he killed Reeva. He would have seen all the crime scene photos time and time again, including photos of Reeva and discussed them with his team. No doubt there were many other photos of her that we didn&#8217;t get to see and they may well have been even more gruesome as close-up shots are always taken of the injuries.

We saw him go through the re-enactment cool as a cucumber with no signs of distress at all. There were none from Aimee either. Many people jokingly said he deserved an Oscar for his performance. I disagree. The Oscar for best actor goes to the person whose performance most convincingly portrays a character. OP&#8217;s performance was the antithesis of that. Lawyers even went so far as to say they&#8217;d never seen such a performance in a courtroom, with the majority of people thinking it was anything but convincing. Most thought it was fake and all about him, not remorse for killing the woman he supposedly loved.

&#8220;At one point he sobbed so hard that his shirt was &#8220;soaking wet&#8221; and proceedings had to be halted&#8221;. Maybe I live on a different planet to most but all I can say is I&#8217;ve never seen a person cry so hard that their shirt was soaking wet. Most of the time he was crying he was leaning forward so the tears would have fallen on his trousers. The proceedings weren&#8217;t just &#8220;halted&#8221;. In fact Court adjourned an hour or two early until the following day as a result of Roux announcing that poor boo was too emotional to continue. IMO this was just more theatrics on the part of Roux to show Masipa that OP was truly the victim in this tragedy &#8230; just like an abused woman.

&#8220;A young woman died because a young man was incapable of thinking&#8221;. This is totally incorrect because he said he didn&#8217;t fire a warning shot because it might ricochet and hit him. That&#8217;s indisputable evidence that he was capable of thinking.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/21/oscar-pistorius-fall-from-grace-south-africa
 
There have been different reports about whether Carl had passengers in his car or not. One of his colleagues was following him in another car. Knowing how OP operates, I wondered whether Carl would have asked the colleague to protect him and to lie about it.


Hi Estelle. Thank you for explaining. I completely misread your post as someone already having refused to assist him and I had missed the report.
 
Carl Pistorius @carlpistorius · 5h 5 hours ago

Self-restraint and gentle speech are effective against stubborn opposition


If that's what Carl really believes, it's a great pity he didn't teach OP that was the way to deal with Reeva rather than use 3 black talon bullets.
 
On the subject of domestic abuse, I just read an interesting article. While I’m not suggesting OP battered anyone, OP’s profile is perfect:

“Several factors have been identified to predict when batterers may use lethal violence. These include excessive jealousy or depression on the part of the batterer, stalking of the victim, threats of homicide or suicide in the past, drug or alcohol abuse. A risk of lethal violence has also been associated with the batterer’s possession of or access to weapons, the use of weapons or threats of such use in prior incidents, and escalation of the violence in frequency or severity. Research indicates that the most dangerous time for a battered woman is after she ends the relationship. In the United States, research indicates that women who leave their batterers are at a 75% greater risk of being killed by their batterers than those who stay”.

http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/svaw/domestic/explore/6support.htm

• We know he was extremely jealous.
• Reeva told Gina, not necessarily joking, that OP was stalking her.
• A history of alcohol abuse.
• Possessed firearms, loved using them, and always carried one.
• An extremely dramatic escalation of violence in both frequency and severity in the preceding 12months.
 
As far as I'm aware she'll only supply the Court of Appeal with a report. Counsel will present heads of argument.

&#8220;When the Appellate Division is approached in a criminal matter, the trial judge who convicted the accused must prepare a report giving his or her opinion upon the case in order to assist the Appellate Division to reach a just decision.

http://www.legalcity.net/Index.cfm?fuseaction=RIGHTS.article&ArticleID=6400430

Did not know that&#8230; Thanks Judi !&#8230; guess that explains why you call yourself "Judge" ;)

Wonder if if it's the same in other countries like US and UK ?
 
Carl Pistorius @carlpistorius · 5h 5 hours ago

Self-restraint and gentle speech are effective against stubborn opposition


If that's what Carl really believes, it's a great pity he didn't teach OP that was the way to deal with Reeva rather than use 3 black talon bullets.

Hilarious… When I read BIB I get the sense Carl is the type of person who :

1. will get physical when he doesn't get his way, hence he must make a conscious effort of self-restraint.

2. will fly off the handle and yell when he doesn't get his way, hence he must remind himself to speak gently.

3. views himself as always being right, hence he deems anyone who doesn't agree with him as an opponent, a stubborn one at that.

4. wishes to be viewed as a righteous role-model, hence he feels the need to preach to others.

… these traits remind you of someone else ??
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
203
Guests online
1,812
Total visitors
2,015

Forum statistics

Threads
600,855
Messages
18,114,790
Members
230,990
Latest member
DeeKay
Back
Top