do you think maddie is alive or dead

[pol100gk]

ok, I see three problems with the scenario of Madeleine being taken to an empty house that evening:

1. That would involve another set of people knowing what happened. What are the odds of so many people who are not very close to the McCanns not breaking down or having remorse? My guess is that it is impossible for such a large number of people to remain complicit without one breaking down. Also, who would help conceal a body for people they have only just met? As an aside, there were dozen of people searching for Madeleine at night and at daybreak - leaving the body at the beach or another unspecified location overnight would most likely have resulted in her being found.

2. I seriously doubt that even a house owned by someone British on the Algarve would have a fridge/freezer big enough to hold the body of a small child. I am not sure if refrigeration would be enough to keep a body from decomposing so a freezer is really what's needed. This is Europe and fridges/freezers are much much smaller than in the US and most first homes will not have a freezer big enough to store more than a few items, never mind second homes.

3. Once the police was notified and the press was out, I think it would have been impossible for the McCanns to be able to move a body without a high risk of being observed.

The excerpt from the David Payne interview you quoted suggests that people had to come in and repair the fridge in the McCanns' flat, not that they used a fridge elsewhere. That's nothing unusual to happen at the beginning of the holiday season and most likely the fridge got repaired or replaced on their first day. At least that's what the routine is in southern European resorts.

It seems to me that the McCanns were lacking opportunity to get rid of a body unless someone else did it for them.

 

[SapphireSteel]

ok, I see three problems with the scenario of Madeleine being taken to an empty house that evening:

1. That would involve another set of people knowing what happened. What are the odds of so many people who are not very close to the McCanns not breaking down or having remorse? My guess is that it is impossible for such a large number of people to remain complicit without one breaking down. Also, who would help conceal a body for people they have only just met? As an aside, there were dozen of people searching for Madeleine at night and at daybreak - leaving the body at the beach or another unspecified location overnight would most likely have resulted in her being found. .

Why would it? All that would be needed would be knowledge of an empty house or apartment. As both McCanns were all over PDL with their jogging, I'm sure they noticed which apartments had a vacant air about them.

2. I seriously doubt that even a house owned by someone British on the Algarve would have a fridge/freezer big enough to hold the body of a small child. I am not sure if refrigeration would be enough to keep a body from decomposing so a freezer is really what's needed. This is Europe and fridges/freezers are much much smaller than in the US and most first homes will not have a freezer big enough to store more than a few items, never mind second homes.
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The body was decomposed according to Amaral. The "fluid" in the trunk of the Renault came off a deteriorating Madeleine.

I cannot seriously guess at the size of the fridge/freezers owned by the British in the Algarve, but I would assume they are the normal size, which would leave plenty of room for a tiny 3 year old especially if they were empty.

3. Once the police was notified and the press was out, I think it would have been impossible for the McCanns to be able to move a body without a high risk of being observed.
.

We know the McCanns went on a solitary walk together the next morning around 6. To quote them "no one was about". They were entirely alone for at least an hour.

Also, Gerry was observed moving the body...by the Smiths.

The excerpt from the David Payne interview you quoted suggests that people had to come in and repair the fridge in the McCanns' flat, not that they used a fridge elsewhere. That's nothing unusual to happen at the beginning of the holiday season and most likely the fridge got repaired or replaced on their first day. At least that's what the routine is in southern European resorts..

Like so many other things, it merely raises questions which have no answers, because the Tapas will no longer cooperate. I find it significant that Payne should mention a dysfunctional fridge, when Madeleine was apparently refrigerated. It could be perfectly innocent, it remains another "loose end".

It seems to me that the McCanns were lacking opportunity to get rid of a body unless someone else did it for them.

The theory I'm working on is that Madeleine initially left the apartment via Payne at 6.30. There is a discrepancy about this visit that remains unexplained. I believe Payne moved her in the first instance, out of the resort, and Gerry later moved her again, then returned to the restaurant in time for the "alert" to be sounded.

The mystery is, where did he move her? Was it to an empty apartment, under the roadworks that had already been dug, the beach, or perhaps to the church?

Any one of the above is equally likely in my opinion.

 

[Clutchbag]

The roadworks were all checked in the morning and nothing was found, besides, the cadaver dog that was taken all over PDL would have alerted

Why would David Payne agree to be complicit in a crime?

There is though a big discrepancy between DPs statement about the visit and KMs, (his april 08 interview andher september 07 interview) also the visit was not mentioned in either of their initial statements

DP said he went into the apartment and stayed chatting for three to five minutes and KM says he stood outside for thirty seconds


I think Madeleine had an accident or was accidentally killed early that evening.

PS The fridge in flat 5a was not repaired, a maintenance guy came round to fix their bedroom blinds and show them how to use the washing machine

 

[Tink]

I can think of reasons why David Payne might agree to help cover up Madeleine's death.

Let's say her death was an accident. David had been friends with the McCanns for many years; I could see him being convinced that nothing could bring Madeleine back, but if this gets out it could destroy our reputation, family, etc. so please help us cover it up. I think he might do that. (I am assuming that there was a reason to cover it up - neglect, drugs, abuse.)

Another darker possibility. Given the allegations that David made sexual comments/gestures about Madeleine, it might be possible that he was molesting her with the consent/acceptance of the parents, and went to the flat during the children's bathtime with that purpose, and in the process Madeleine was killed. Then he would want to help hide her body to protect himself as well.

I know, it is a horrible thought but those things do happen.

Tink

 

[Irishdetective]

One way of disposing her body quickly un-noticed would be to conceal it in concrete. I'm wondering was there many active building sites in the area, also was there any that stored a readymix mixer on site, another fresh concrete is available 24/7 and is quick drying normally sets in a couple of hours in the right conditions. Any sort of concrete pour would hide the body forever without trace. I wonder is there anyway of finding out say in a 3 mile radius was there active sites up and running. If the parents went jogging they may have found a secluded site.

In my profession i have come across many bodies disposed of this way.
Any Thoughts folks?

 

[SunnieRN]

First, I freely admit I am new to this case and have only looked at what is readily/easily available in the media.

One issue/question that totally leaves me baffled, is, just as in the Ramsey case, parents who lost a child. were not fearful of being apart from their other child/children. I am not trying to be judgmental here, but I would not leave my children alone, nor would I leave 2 sleeping children alone, after one disappeared.

Secondly, the other two children were sleeping with all the commotion that should have ensued when it was found Madeline was missing? Personally, I would have scooped my other two babies with me, to go and alert my spouse and others of what had happened.

Again, not judging, just not understanding.

Next, what about the sighting of Madeline, where her head was covered? It was in another country, (sorry can't remember where) and she was with a woman. The head cover looked middle eastern in origin.

Thanks so much!!

 

[Tink]

I agree that Kate's reaction when she discovered Maddy missing was very strange. After the McCann's made such a big point about how close the apartment was to the Tapas restaurant, why didn't she just step out to the balcony and shout to the others? If that wasn't possible, why didn't she use her cellphone? I too can't imagine leaving my two babies alone in the apartment to go back to the restaurant to alert the others - especially when there were thes other options.

Even more than that, they left the twins in the creche regularly in the days that followed. I have never seen a parent that lost a child not want to hold their other children even closer. If you thought that your family had been followed by a predator of some kind (as Kate says in her book) wouldn't you worry that the twins might be taken too and want to keep them with you? Instead they put the children in the creche and went jogging. Later they left the twins again to go to Rome and meet the Pope.

The twins not waking up during all the commotion is also a puzzle. I don't understand why they weren't promptly tested for drugs - in fact, if I was the parent I would have insisted on it! Who knows what might have happened to them? But since the parents didn't, I don't understand why the police didn't insist on having them tested.

Tink

 

[Clutchbag]

One way of disposing her body quickly un-noticed would be to conceal it in concrete. I'm wondering was there many active building sites in the area, also was there any that stored a readymix mixer on site, another fresh concrete is available 24/7 and is quick drying normally sets in a couple of hours in the right conditions. Any sort of concrete pour would hide the body forever without trace. I wonder is there anyway of finding out say in a 3 mile radius was there active sites up and running. If the parents went jogging they may have found a secluded site.

In my profession i have come across many bodies disposed of this way.
Any Thoughts folks?

There were roadworks at the time but they were all checked the the next morning

There was an old building nearby that was demolished within days and the rubble taken, so thats a possibility

 

[Clutchbag]

I agree that Kate's reaction when she discovered Maddy missing was very strange. After the McCann's made such a big point about how close the apartment was to the Tapas restaurant, why didn't she just step out to the balcony and shout to the others? If that wasn't possible, why didn't she use her cellphone? I too can't imagine leaving my two babies alone in the apartment to go back to the restaurant to alert the others - especially when there were thes other options.

Even more than that, they left the twins in the creche regularly in the days that followed. I have never seen a parent that lost a child not want to hold their other children even closer. If you thought that your family had been followed by a predator of some kind (as Kate says in her book) wouldn't you worry that the twins might be taken too and want to keep them with you? Instead they put the children in the creche and went jogging. Later they left the twins again to go to Rome and meet the Pope.

The twins not waking up during all the commotion is also a puzzle. I don't understand why they weren't promptly tested for drugs - in fact, if I was the parent I would have insisted on it! Who knows what might have happened to them? But since the parents didn't, I don't understand why the police didn't insist on having them tested.

Tink

its is definitely bizarre that on finding your child abducted, as she said she was sure immediately, you would LEAVE your remaining two babies on their own and go out again to alert the others which was 200 yards away, its plain nonsense and NOT something any sane mother would do so in other words its nonsense IMO and proof that she was not scared of any abductor around,As for testing them for drugs they didnt get them tested they just asked the police if they had any evidence that drugs were used

BTW thanks Tink on your previous reply re D Payne, jurys out here, I think he is a red herring

 

[Tink]

When you say you think David Payne is a red herring, do you mean that you think there was no sexual abuse going on, or that you don't think he had anything to do with hiding Madeleine's body, or both?

Tink

 

[SapphireSteel]

I don't know what is behind the David Payne information, but I find it too coincidental that he was the last third party to allegedly see Madeleine alive, and he is the one the pedophile rumblings are about, alone amongst the Tapas group, and from more than one source.

I find it incredibly odd that he visited Kate and the children at all that night, let alone the discrepancies in his and Kates version of that visit, which takes their stories out of the realm of believability.

He has a wife and small children of his own to check on, why check anyone elses, especially at bathtime when parents are trying to settle them, not rouse them up with visitors? It makes no sense. Kate was an at-home mum with a busy husband, she was well used to putting her own kids to bed unaided.

They were lying about that visit. Why?

Payne is involved up to his neck ("We have a pact") but as far as him actually abusing Madeleine with parental permission...God knows. Perhaps he was actually visiting Kate, and Gerry was supposed to visit Payne's wife, fun and games on holidays. This would explain both the lies about the visit, and the "pact". They didn't want any partner swapping to become public as none of them would ever live it down.

 

[Clutchbag]

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/371953/Madeleine-McCann-kidnap-photo-shock

oh dear

what a load of crock

 

[SapphireSteel]

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/371953/Madeleine-McCann-kidnap-photo-shock

oh dear

what a load of crock

How timely!

Team McCann have just admitted they had ceased looking for Madeleine, despite still having ample funds and declaring they would NEVER stop, thereby raising questions of what, exactly, they were doing with the funds if not using them to search.

Miraculously there appears yet another "sighting" in distant lands to go running after (these "sightings" never occured somewhere easily accessible or unexotic, like the UK), thereby resuming the "search" and justifying the "Fund".

At least the sightings are no longer once a month, like clockwork.

 

[Clutchbag]

SS its turned out to be a hoax apparently, quel surprise

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6256944.stm

This was the picture sent, bastards

You can read all about it on the missing madeleine forum
http://missingmadeleine.forumotion.net/t22577-maddie-spotted-in-brazil

 

[Clutchbag]

McMinute: HOAX 'Maddie Kidnap Photo SHOCK' - YouTube


Hoax

 

[SapphireSteel]

Is there no depths to which these people will sink?

Still, I suppose they need something to take everyone's attention away from their failing "libel" case.

As Justice Tugerand said,(paraphrased) "it is not libel if they actually did kill Madeleine" and to date, no one actually knows what happened to her, so a libel case is baseless.

 

[Novice Seeker]

Hi All,

Since it was first reported that Maddie was taken(from this world IMO) I have followed this crime via news articles, books, documents, blogs, crime/Maddie/other photo's, internet forums including a few that were very pro family and related, secondary news that have involved the McCanns and their many lawsuits and charity fund controversies.

So, here are a few things, IMO, are red flags that so strongly point to the involvement of several of the adults who were vacationing together when this crime happened. And, for the life of me I can not understand how or why they were not charged with ANY crime. Separate of the crime of the death of a child there were crimes of child neglect that all of the parents committed that they were never held accountable for. It just blows my mind. Were their behavior/thoughts/beliefs based on a differing culture? It's not just the actions/behaviors of the Tapas 9 but their extended families and friends who supported and defended these 9 adults.

I would enjoy sleuthing this crime so here's hoping there are fellow members interested in discussing thoughts/opinions about this case.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Hi Novice and welcome to Madeleine's threads.

I agree with you 100% regarding the oddities and behaviours in this case.

I also agree the McCann should have been charged with neglect at the very least and it is extremely mysterious that they have not been. They left their babies alone and uncared for night after night while they swanned off for Tapas and wine with their friends. It is clear cut neglect, which they have admitted to.

There are many, many supporters who are very vocal about any criticism of the McCanns, despite what we know about their behaviour.

It seems bizarre to me too...but not without precedent.

Witness John and Patsy Ramsey. Through money, influence,and sheer determination, they also escaped punishment for their daughter's death.

The Ramseys wrote the script and the McCanns followed it, faithfully, right down to the expensive lawyers, governmental involvement, counter accusations and time wasting libel suits.

The best defense is offense.

 

[Clutchbag]

The Mccanns Are toast


http://blacksmithbureau.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/they-just-don-get-it.html?m=1

 

[Polar]

I voted "dead and parents NOT innocent".
I've never felt right about the parents, seeing them smile in pictures not long after Maddie vanished makes me feel sick.

I think there's alot of inconsistencies to many to be ignored.