Do you think the prosecutor proved the case?

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves

Do you think the prosecutor proved the case?

  • The case for murder was demonstrated beyond a reasonable doubt

    Votes: 76 29.6%
  • Murder directus -OP fired shots knowing it was RS and intended to kill her

    Votes: 144 56.0%
  • Murder eventualis- OP believed it was a burglar, foresaw he would kill by shooting

    Votes: 21 8.2%
  • The case for culpable homicide was proven

    Votes: 35 13.6%
  • There are many holes in the case – too many unanswered questions

    Votes: 22 8.6%
  • Prosecutor’s evidence and witness testimony verify OP’s version

    Votes: 3 1.2%
  • The firearm charges were substantiated

    Votes: 38 14.8%
  • None of the above

    Votes: 1 0.4%

  • Total voters
    257
Murder directus.

In 2004 Rudi Visagie, a well known Rugby Player in SA, shot and killed his teenage daughter that he mistook for someone stealing their car one night. He was so remorseful he turned himself in immediately and apparently stated to authorities: "My life is already over, do with me what you will."

Excerpt from article:
"Dreyer, in a submission to the prosecuting authority, argued that Visagie should not be prosecuted on humanitarian grounds as the death of his daughter had been punishment enough. Steve Tuson of the Wits Law Clinic applauded the decision. "If the facts as portrayed in the media, that there was a genuine mistaking of circumstances and that it was reasonable for him to assume that the car was being stolen, then strictly speaking his conduct was negligent. Any punishment the court may well impose can in no way approach the punishment Visagie must put on himself. He must be living a thousand agonies every single day." Makhosini Nkosi, spokesperson for the National Prosecuting Authority, confirmed that Visagie would not be prosecuted. "There's no doubt that Visagie's culpability in the matter can be argued successfully in court, but we believe that justice wouldn't ultimately be served. "He has been through traumatic circumstances, and his pain would only have been aggravated by his part in her death. We feel he has learned a hard lesson and the courts cannot achieve more than that," he said.

In contrast we have Oscar.

When asked who should be blamed for shooting Reeva, his answer: "I don't know Milady." He has not shown proof of living 'a thousand agonies' as Mr Visagie endured above. Instead he carried on with training, went to Mozambique and started a new relationship.

He has tried to escape all responsibility, for Tasha's and for the incident through the sunroof, as for Reeva, he seems solely concerned with escaping all consequences of his actions that night...including using self-defense, then "not sure why" and finally GAD.
As Nel put it: "That your version is not only untruthful but it's so improbable that it cannot be reasonably possibly true…. The court WILL on the objective fact and circumstantial evidence, make the following findings… I'm putting it as strong as this, the court WILL Mr. Pistorius...."

Looking at testimony, forensics, circumstantial evidence and OP's version, I agree with Nel. I say Murder directus.

Justice must prevail.

BGT

Thank you for this excellent post. For me, it's actually brought a new perspective to the case and trial. Even though the court is to only assess what happened during the murder based on the behaviour of a "reasonable" person, your post highlights that the behaviour of a killer post-murder can say an awful lot.

IMO, after killing his daughter, Rudi Visagie behaved as a reasonable person would. By comparison, post-murder, OP has not behaved like a reasonable person would after killing the love of his life. He won't even say "I shot Reeva". Instead, there's all this BS about a "firearm" which behaved independently of him.

I know some Websleuths have said, and will continue to say "Everyone grieves in their own way" (ergo, this is OP's way). But, the chasm between the 2 different manifestations of grief is so huge as to make OP's version unbelievable.
 
The ear witness testimony was very convincing. A woman's scream was heard followed by shots.

Oscar lied about things he could not possibly know according to his accounting of the evening. Had he been asleep, he could not have known whether or not Reeva had left the room to have a bite to eat. He did so to preserve his version; that they were both sleeping & Reeva had not eaten since their dinner together. The evidence indicates otherwise. His expert witness was not convincing on the matter. The prosecution was able to bring doubt as to the validity of her testimony.

It was not fully established that the room was so dark as to prevent Oscar from seeing that Reeva had left the bed. The pants that were supposed to have been covering the blue LED light were on the floor, partially on top of the duvet.

Ear witnesses testified to a long drawn out argument and then screams before the shots were fired.

Oscar fired point blank into the locked door of the bathroom knowing full well that Reeva was inside. (I also think that the panel of the door had been removed before he fired and that he could see his target.)

He did not call for emergency services immediately , and wasted many minutes to insure that she was dead before any help could possibly arrive.

Murder directus.
 
BGT

Thank you for this excellent post. For me, it's actually brought a new perspective to the case and trial. Even though the court is to only assess what happened during the murder based on the behaviour of a "reasonable" person, your post highlights that the behaviour of a killer post-murder can say an awful lot.

IMO, after killing his daughter, Rudi Visagie behaved as a reasonable person would. By comparison, post-murder, OP has not behaved like a reasonable person would after killing the love of his life. He won't even say "I shot Reeva". Instead, there's all this BS about a "firearm" which behaved independently of him.

I know some Websleuths have said, and will continue to say "Everyone grieves in their own way" (ergo, this is OP's way). But, the chasm between the 2 different manifestations of grief is so huge as to make OP's version unbelievable.

Hi - thanks for your response :) i agree it really shows the vast differences in psyche after losing a loved one. Found another interesting interview with OP which shows his outlook for his disability -

1. clearly stating the disability was never an issue for him and life was 100% normal (interesting as in trial he is claiming vulnerability)

2. Also, in the interview he mentions an incident playing rugby where a fellow player pulled off his leg and ran with it by mistake (interesting no evidence here of GAD, anxiety or any angst that OP claims he suffered with through his life. No anxiety over a situation that would typically be traumatic for someone suffering with an anxiety disorder, or anyone for that matter!).

interview:
London 2012 Olympics: 'Bladerunner' Oscar Pistorius interview - YouTube
 
Hi - thanks for your response :) i agree it really shows the vast differences in psyche after losing a loved one. Found another interesting interview with OP which shows his outlook for his disability -

1. clearly stating the disability was never an issue for him and life was 100% normal (interesting as in trial he is claiming vulnerability)

2. Also, in the interview he mentions an incident playing rugby where a fellow player pulled off his leg and ran with it by mistake (interesting no evidence here of GAD, anxiety or any angst that OP claims he suffered with through his life. No anxiety over a situation that would typically be traumatic for someone suffering with an anxiety disorder, or anyone for that matter!).

interview:
London 2012 Olympics: 'Bladerunner' Oscar Pistorius interview - YouTube

Hey BGK. :seeya: Love your blog. Been missing you on the main thread. Glad to see you are still here.
 
Hey BGK. :seeya: Love your blog. Been missing you on the main thread. Glad to see you are still here.

OMG - I've been on the wrong thread all this time :tantrum:
THANK YOU FOR LETTING ME KNOW - see you in the main thread now. xx
 
Hi - thanks for your response :) i agree it really shows the vast differences in psyche after losing a loved one. Found another interesting interview with OP which shows his outlook for his disability -

1. clearly stating the disability was never an issue for him and life was 100% normal (interesting as in trial he is claiming vulnerability)

2. Also, in the interview he mentions an incident playing rugby where a fellow player pulled off his leg and ran with it by mistake (interesting no evidence here of GAD, anxiety or any angst that OP claims he suffered with through his life. No anxiety over a situation that would typically be traumatic for someone suffering with an anxiety disorder, or anyone for that matter!).

interview:
London 2012 Olympics: 'Bladerunner' Oscar Pistorius interview - YouTube

Also interesting in that video is that, although during the trial he has made much of that thing of needing to cover the tops of his prosthetic legs, he seems quite happy to leave them exposed in that video (3:51 where he is at the track and just lays them down on the floor without covering them at all).
 
He is very relaxed and confident in that interview too, and something which I've noticed in other youtube vids of interviews with him .. there is not one hint of nervousness in either his voice or in his body language .. doesn't seem very GAD-like to me ..
 
I Hv to add now that we r nearing the verdict, that OP at the Olympics set me OFF in several ways, made me sick. Entitled wannabe, golden boy, (not) and he pulled a few stunts at the games. These were not funny stunts these were stunts that showed what a whiner baby he truly was, how immature he truly was and what a poor SPORTSMAN that HE was. (And never will be again btw)..I hope m'lady does the only correct thing ww her answer to this verdict...and he sits in a cell for life. He deserves to. And btw UNCLE his career is OVER. The games won't touch him, so you can tuck that dead dream away w him in his cell. Thanks. Rant.
 
http://youtu.be/h_4q8FspiBs

Nel should Hv played this for the m'Lady in his closing arguments to verify and show just how confident he truly was, he didn't see himself as vulnerable or disabled...in any way...JUSTICE FOR REEVA AND HER Parents!
 
I believe the prosecution has proved dolus eventualis beyond reasonable doubt.

1. SA gun laws state that it is illegal to fire at an 'intruder' through a door when s/he is not posing an immediate threat; OP knew that because it was one of the questions he answered correctly when applying for his licence. To do so is not to act in self defence.

2. OP fired four bullets through a door at a human being he claimed he thought was an intruder, yet he had not seen the person and there was no suggestion OP was in immediate danger.

3. The defence case is primarily just fluff and flannel - an attempt to argue mitigating circumstances and to cast doubt on the prosecution's case. But SA law applies to everyone, even severely disabled individuals like OP. I can't see how OP can escape a guilty verdict as a result. All that 'evidence' about startled responses was nonsense; OP fired four directed shots in a close grouping. He didn't fire randomly, he fired with intent to kill.

4. Roux has done the best he could with a client who went off message in the witness box, blamed others for errors he had made (including Roux), wouldn't take responsibility for the lesser firearms charges until last minute (so effectively lied under oath) and kept embellishing his version to try to account for his actions.

5. Dolus directus is less clear cut for me. I do think OP knew it was RS in the toilet, but I'm not sure that Nel has proved that beyond reasonable doubt. I believe the eye/ear witnesses all reported faithfully what they (thought they) saw and heard, but witnesses to events like this can be unreliable, even with the best of intentions. (I do still believe them, though). Timelines are still very unclear to me (Roux did a good job of clouding them even further in his closing arguments by cherry picking the evidence). Poor police handling of the scene has hampered the prosecution case significantly; if we had a clear, undisputed photographic record of the bedroom/bathroom before anything was moved, or could have been alleged to have been moved, I think dolus directus would have been proved beyond reasonable doubt.
 
I believe the prosecution has proved dolus eventualis beyond reasonable doubt.

1. SA gun laws state that it is illegal to fire at an 'intruder' through a door when s/he is not posing an immediate threat; OP knew that because it was one of the questions he answered correctly when applying for his licence. To do so is not to act in self defence.

2. OP fired four bullets through a door at a human being he claimed he thought was an intruder, yet he had not seen the person and there was no suggestion OP was in immediate danger.

3. The defence case is primarily just fluff and flannel - an attempt to argue mitigating circumstances and to cast doubt on the prosecution's case. But SA law applies to everyone, even severely disabled individuals like OP. I can't see how OP can escape a guilty verdict as a result. All that 'evidence' about startled responses was nonsense; OP fired four directed shots in a close grouping. He didn't fire randomly, he fired with intent to kill.

4. Roux has done the best he could with a client who went off message in the witness box, blamed others for errors he had made (including Roux), wouldn't take responsibility for the lesser firearms charges until last minute (so effectively lied under oath) and kept embellishing his version to try to account for his actions.

5. Dolus directus is less clear cut for me. I do think OP knew it was RS in the toilet, but I'm not sure that Nel has proved that beyond reasonable doubt. I believe the eye/ear witnesses all reported faithfully what they (thought they) saw and heard, but witnesses to events like this can be unreliable, even with the best of intentions. (I do still believe them, though). Timelines are still very unclear to me (Roux did a good job of clouding them even further in his closing arguments by cherry picking the evidence). Poor police handling of the scene has hampered the prosecution case significantly; if we had a clear, undisputed photographic record of the bedroom/bathroom before anything was moved, or could have been alleged to have been moved, I think dolus directus would have been proved beyond reasonable doubt.


What is the difference in the sentencing with these 2 charges?
 
What is the difference in the sentencing with these 2 charges?
I'm not absolutely sure but I think it's life for dolus directus, and dolus eventualis can attract a lighter sentence at the judge's discretion.
 
What is the difference in the sentencing with these 2 charges?
None between eventualis and directus. In terms of sentencing, if premeditation is proven, he will likely receive the mandatory sentence of life in prison (minimum 25 years).Without premeditation, the sentence would probably be 15 years (usual minimum for first murder offence). Minimum sentences are subject to being shortened for 'extraordinary circumstances' though many appellate cases I've read go beyond the minimum sentence. A sentence for culpable homicide though is entirely at the judge's discretion with no minimum sentence prescribed. HTH
 
Posted this comment on Lisa's blog... Which everyone should read.


Nel did a brilliant job putting all the pieces of the puzzle together in his HoA. Proving that it couldn’t have possibly been rapid fire (due to the fact that bullet hole b would have hit her) and linking it with MB evidence was genius. I was concerned when the judge asked about the whatsapp message being reliable (relationships being dynamic or something) but I’m glad she asked because Nel answered that question so well! Couple of great quotes was ‘as long as you accept that they weren't without problems’ and ‘This was not a normal relationship, this ended in death’. RIP Reeva.
 
None between eventualis and directus. In terms of sentencing, if premeditation is proven, he will likely receive the mandatory sentence of life in prison (minimum 25 years).Without premeditation, the sentence would probably be 15 years (usual minimum for first murder offence). Minimum sentences are subject to being shortened for 'extraordinary circumstances' though many appellate cases I've read go beyond the minimum sentence. A sentence for culpable homicide though is entirely at the judge's discretion with no minimum sentence prescribed. HTH

Thank you! I'm hoping he gets at least 15 yrs.
 
With precedent being a shaping force in law I wonder if the cases of the two South African men who previously mistakenly shot their daughters to death in comparable circumstances will impact the judgement in a formal legal sense? As they were not prosecuted they may be ineligible for consideration legally, though they may enter the panel's mind personally on a moral level.
 
Agree!

The ear witness testimony was very convincing. A woman's scream was heard followed by shots.

Oscar lied about things he could not possibly know according to his accounting of the evening. Had he been asleep, he could not have known whether or not Reeva had left the room to have a bite to eat. He did so to preserve his version; that they were both sleeping & Reeva had not eaten since their dinner together. The evidence indicates otherwise. His expert witness was not convincing on the matter. The prosecution was able to bring doubt as to the validity of her testimony.

It was not fully established that the room was so dark as to prevent Oscar from seeing that Reeva had left the bed. The pants that were supposed to have been covering the blue LED light were on the floor, partially on top of the duvet.

Ear witnesses testified to a long drawn out argument and then screams before the shots were fired.

Oscar fired point blank into the locked door of the bathroom knowing full well that Reeva was inside. (I also think that the panel of the door had been removed before he fired and that he could see his target.)

He did not call for emergency services immediately , and wasted many minutes to insure that she was dead before any help could possibly arrive.

Murder directus.
 

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