Documentary Claims Jesus Was Married

[Dark Knight]

John was martyred? I don't know of anyone who ever claimed that, even by tradition.

The means of deaths of all the apostles, except for James and Judas, are a matter of traditional stories not a matter of historical fact. I don't for a minute dispute that they have all died, but only that how they died is not established historical fact.

Yes, some traditions have John martyed. I think he is even listed as one in the church calendar, but could be wrong.

I know there are many who say he was the ONLY Apostle to not be martyred, having escaped martyrdom via a vat of boiling oil miraculously.

 

[Maral]

DK, I don't think it's that the martyrdoms are disputed. We're all just trying tp distinguish between what is objectively proven versus what is a matter of tradition and what must be taken on faith.

Nova, haven't we all for the most part agreed that a man named Jesus did in fact live and die? Believing that He is the Son of God, as He claimed, is a matter of faith. I don't think we can show any objective proof, at least by your standards, unless the rapturists are right and the true believers are taken up in the blink of an eye (or whatever it is that they claim) in our lifetime.

 

[Nova]

Yes, some traditions have John martyed. I think he is even listed as one in the church calendar, but could be wrong.

I know there are many who say he was the ONLY Apostle to not be martyred, having escaped martyrdom via a vat of boiling oil miraculously.

http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/1997/4/4front97.html



DK, you are correct re John: the site above summarizes The Search for the Twelve Apostles, by Dr. William Steuart McBirnie. (The site is extremely skeptical; Dr. McBirnie not as much.)

According to McBirnie, the best evidence is that John died of old age in Ephesus, but this is still mostly tradition rather than hard evidence. (And as you point out, there are other traditions.)

 

[Nova]

Nova, haven't we all for the most part agreed that a man named Jesus did in fact live and die? Believing that He is the Son of God, as He claimed, is a matter of faith. I don't think we can show any objective proof, at least by your standards, unless the rapturists are right and the true believers are taken up in the blink of an eye (or whatever it is that they claim) in our lifetime.

Maral, I think most scholars start from the premise that a "Rabbi Yeshua" lived and preached in first century Judea because it is a simpler premise than the alternative: that Jesus lived not at all and later writers made him up out of whole cloth. Occam's Razor and all that.

This is not to say we have anything like an eyewitness account from any of Jesus' contemporaries - despite the miracles that were witnessed by thousands.

But I certainly agree we have gone as far as we can go in this discussion without some new discovery. (And what discovery could prove the negative that Jesus never existed?)

I'm certainly willing to concede the historicity of Jesus for the purposes of this discussion. (And most others. Personally, I think of Jesus as an historical figure.)

 

[LovelyPigeon]

Yes, some traditions have John martyed.

Any chance you could point me to one or two via a link?

 

[Dark Knight]

Any chance you could point me to one or two via a link?

You know how to Google don't you? :crazy:

 

[LovelyPigeon]

You know how to Google don't you? :crazy:

I sure do! But I don't know of any traditions that John was martyred. That's your claim, and I thought you could give a reason for believing it to be so.

 

[Nova]

Any chance you could point me to one or two via a link?

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=1550-3283(190407)8%3A3%3C539%3ATMOJTA%3E2.0.CO%3B2-N


LP, that link probably won't work because it is from the same source as the previous, non-working one. But it shows a page from a 1904 book citing traditions that John was martyred in Jerusalem 30 years before "his" gospel is written.

Per those traditions, the fourth NT gospel and Revelations can't be by John the Apostle, because he was dead when they were written.

 

[LovelyPigeon]

This is not to say we have anything like an eyewitness account from any of Jesus' contemporaries - despite the miracles that were witnessed by thousands.

Nova, I've always found it curious that nothing more was heard from Lazarus after being raised from the 3 days' dead, or from/about the "saints" who were raised from dead in the Jerusalem tombs at the moment of Jesus' death, then walked into the city where they were seen by many (according to Matthew 27:52-53).

We aren't told who those saints were or what happened to them after they were seen by many! A fascinating story with lots of unanswered questions, dontcha think?

 

[LovelyPigeon]

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=1550-3283(190407)8%3A3%3C539%3ATMOJTA%3E2.0.CO%3B2-N


LP, that link probably won't work because it is from the same source as the previous, non-working one. But it shows a page from a 1904 book citing traditions that John was martyred in Jerusalem 30 years before "his" gospel is written.

Per those traditions, the fourth NT gospel and Revelations can't be by John the Apostle, because he was dead when they were written.

Well, that's an interesting development! (copying and pasting the links does work for me--thanks)

If John the Apostle was martyred, then he didn't write the gospel or the Revelation (it's singular, although it seems like it should be plural).

(I bet you know that the author of both the Gospel of John and the Revelation of John are disputed.)

 

[Nova]

Nova, I've always found it curious that nothing more was heard from Lazarus after being raised from the dead after 3 days, or from/about the "saints" who were raised from dead in the Jerusalem tombs at the moment of Jesus' death, then walked into the city where they were seen by many (according to Matthew 27:52-53).

We aren't told who those saints were or what happened to them after they were seen by many! A fascinating story with lots of unanswered questions, dontcha think?

Not to mention the thousands who dined on a couple of fish, etc.

Do I think Jesus was a great teacher who actually lived in Judea in the early first century?

Yes.

But I suspect his followers embellished his life considerably as they worked to "sell" his teaching throughout the Mediterranean, and probably did so with one eye on their copy of Isaiah.

(The latter opinion - to my mind - in no way diminishes Jesus' importance.)

 

[Dark Knight]

Not to mention the thousands who dined on a couple of fish, etc.

Do I think Jesus was a great teacher who actually lived in Judea in the early first century?

Yes.

But I suspect his followers embellished his life considerably as they worked to "sell" his teaching throughout the Mediterranean, and probably did so with one eye on their copy of Isaiah.

(The latter opinion - to my mind - in no way diminishes Jesus' importance.)

You basically just denied Jesus' divinity. Nothing more than a great teacher, didn't perform any miracles that were attributed to him, etc. Now I understand.

 

[Dark Knight]

Well, that's an interesting development! (copying and pasting the links does work for me--thanks)

If John the Apostle was martyred, then he didn't write the gospel or the Revelation (it's singular, although it seems like it should be plural).

(I bet you know that the author of both the Gospel of John and the Revelation of John are disputed.)

IF he was martyred. I simply said there are two traditions about his death. I don't care much which is true. I was taught he was martyred, but it is obvious some believe otherwise.

 

[LovelyPigeon]

IF he was martyred. I simply said there are two traditions about his death. I don't care much which is true. I was taught he was martyred, but it is obvious some believe otherwise.

Forgive me, but I'm still interested in what the basis of your being taught that John the Apostle was martyred. Was that a Protestant or a Catholic teaching?

 

[Nova]

You basically just denied Jesus' divinity. Nothing more than a great teacher, didn't perform any miracles that were attributed to him, etc. Now I understand.

Au contraire, DK! Jesus was and is just as divine as you and I. (Article of faith, of course; I can't prove any of us are spirit.)

As for the miracles, I didn't say there were none. (I don't know.) I just said I suspect the gospel writers (NT and otherwise) may have embellished their tale.

 

[LovelyPigeon]

Not to mention the thousands who dined on a couple of fish, etc.

You will laugh, but after decades of church and SS, I didn't know until recent years that the NT describes feeding 5,000 and then feeding 4,000, with neither count including women and children. I'd heard plenty about the 5,000 and nothing about the 4,000.

 

[Dark Knight]

Au contraire, DK! Jesus was and is just as divine as you and I. (Article of faith, of course; I can't prove any of us are spirit.)

As for the miracles, I didn't say there were none. (I don't know.) I just said I suspect the gospel writers (NT and otherwise) may have embellished their tale.

I strongly disagree. Jesus was true God and true Man, we are true men only. It isn't even close.

I would suspect, that there were so many miracles and other wonderous acts, that the writers left most of them out! They simply couldn't cover them all.

 

[Dark Knight]

Au contraire, DK! Jesus was and is just as divine as you and I. (Article of faith, of course; I can't prove any of us are spirit.)

As for the miracles, I didn't say there were none. (I don't know.) I just said I suspect the gospel writers (NT and otherwise) may have embellished their tale.

And you are also saying you think the bible, the Word of God, has lies in it. (Embellishing is lying.)

 

[Nova]

I strongly disagree. Jesus was true God and true Man, we are true men only. It isn't even close.

I would suspect, that there were so many miracles and other wonderous acts, that the writers left most of them out! They simply couldn't cover them all.

I understand, DK.

To be clear (because I don't want you to think I am being sarcastic when I say things like I have no doubt you are full of the Holy Spirit), I believe Jesus' message was not that *He* was the Son of God peculiarly, but that he, you, Maral, LP and I *all* are.

By following his example, we are made aware of our own divinity.

I never said he was just a great teacher.

 

[LovelyPigeon]

You basically just denied Jesus' divinity. Nothing more than a great teacher, didn't perform any miracles that were attributed to him, etc. Now I understand.

Nova might have the same view as Thomas Jefferson, founding father and 3rd President of the U.S.

Jefferson, while in the White House, edited the Gospels of the NT to create his own Jefferson Bible "The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth". Jefferson removed all the stories of miracles and the resurrection, and included only what he thought were the moral teachings by Jesus. None of the letters or Acts is included.