Documentary Claims Jesus Was Married

[Nova]

I don't see your point. Judaism HAS survived and they WERE real. Which proves my point. Abraham is the common denominator between all 3 major religions, actually. Are you saying they didn't exist so my point is disproved?

The point is we have no more proof of their historicity than we do of Jesus's. You'll have to make another choice if you want to prove that longevity of religion = historically provable founder. You can't prove it with Judaism.

 

[Cypros]

I believe Cypros was summarizing the traditional Jewish view, not making a judgment about Christianity being "diluted."

Islam certainly does proselytize. Check out any American prison. And historically, it was spread quite aggressively throughout the Middle East and North Africa. The Koran commands followers to convert the infidel, I believe.

Islam was definitely spread by the sword and populations converted (willing or not) with the establishment of Islamic states, but the proselytizing you refer to in American jails is, I believe, a direct influence from the context of a Christian America. I have lived in and traveled through many Muslim countries and have never encountered proselytizing. Should a Christian wish to convert it is allowed and certainly viewed by muslims as the best choice by the convert, but there is no active effort to send muslim missionaries into the Christian communities to convert them. Perhaps it is a different case in Islamic nations in South Asia, but their practices and culture are much different from the Middle Eastern (Arab) nations.

 

[Dark Knight]

The point is we have no more proof of their historicity than we do of Jesus's. You'll have to make another choice if you want to prove that longevity of religion = historically provable founder. You can't prove it with Judaism.

So there is no evidence of any of them historically speaking??? Of course, they are part of our faith, too (ten commendments, the prophetic writings, etc.)

Well, then I say it's likely they all historically existed! Every one of 'em! :snooty:

 

[Dark Knight]

Understood, DK. I just wanted to reiterate that *I* am not dismissing Faith just because I distinguish it from Science.

I remember well the words to Thomas. But one could also argue that God DOES show Herself to us every day, but often we fail to recognize Her.

HER? You love poking me in the nose, don't you? lol. BCE/CE....HER!!!!! I am not going there, just wanted to record my shock. Carry on, lol.

 

[Dark Knight]

Islam was definitely spread by the sword and populations converted (willing or not) with the establishment of Islamic states, but the proselytizing you refer to in American jails is, I believe, a direct influence from the context of a Christian America. I have lived in and traveled through many Muslim countries and have never encountered proselytizing. Should a Christian wish to convert it is allowed and certainly viewed by muslims as the best choice by the convert, but there is no active effort to send muslim missionaries into the Christian communities to convert them. Perhaps it is a different case in Islamic nations in South Asia, but their practices and culture are much different from the Middle Eastern (Arab) nations.

Go to some countries and try converting a Muslim to Christianity or Judaism and you will be killed. Seems to be a one way street as far as consequences.

 

[Cypros]

I don't see your point. Judaism HAS survived and they WERE real. Which proves my point. Abraham is the common denominator between all 3 major religions, actually. Are you saying they didn't exist so my point is disproved?

The latter. Judaism HAS survived and they were NOT real.

Edited to add: Obviously this is up for debate but modern Biblical scholarship leaves the historicity of these characters highly in question.

 

[Dark Knight]

Each Friday night after work, Bubba would fire up his outdoor grill and cook
a venison steak. But all of Bubba's neighbors were Catholic ... and since it
was Lent, they were forbidden from eating meat on Friday. The delicious
aroma from the grilled venison steaks was causing such a problem for the
Catholic faithful that they finally talked to their priest.

The priest came to visit Bubba and suggested that he become a Catholic.

After several classes and much study, Bubba attended Mass and, as the priest
sprinkled holy water over him, he said, "You were born a Methodist, and
raised a Methodist, but now you are a Catholic".

Bubba's neighbors were greatly relieved, until Friday night arrived, and the
wonderful aroma of grilled venison again filled the neighborhood. The
priest was called immediately by the neighbors, and as he rushed into
Bubba's yard clutching a rosary preparing to scold him, he stopped and
watched in amazement.

There stood Bubba, clutching a small bottle of holy water which he carefully
sprinkled over the grilling meat and chanted: “You wuz born a deer, you wuz
raised a deer, but now you is a catfish”.

 

[Nova]

Islam was definitely spread by the sword and populations converted (willing or not) with the establishment of Islamic states, but the proselytizing you refer to in American jails is, I believe, a direct influence from the context of a Christian America. I have lived in and traveled through many Muslim countries and have never encountered proselytizing. Should a Christian wish to convert it is allowed and certainly viewed by muslims as the best choice by the convert, but there is no active effort to send muslim missionaries into the Christian communities to convert them. Perhaps it is a different case in Islamic nations in South Asia, but their practices and culture are much different from the Middle Eastern (Arab) nations.

I never said Islam and Christianity are the same. Hardly. But compared to Judaism, at least in theory, Islam and Christianity seem more alike on this issue.

I will certainly take your word for it that contemporary Muslims are not as aggressive as Christian missionaries (but of course neither are most contemporary Christians).

 

[Cypros]

Go to some countries and try converting a Muslim to Christianity or Judaism and you will be killed. Seems to be a one way street as far as consequences.

???? What does this have to do with wether or not Muslims actively proselytize?

 

[Nova]

HER? You love poking me in the nose, don't you? lol. BCE/CE....HER!!!!! I am not going there, just wanted to record my shock. Carry on, lol.

Honestly, that wasn't my intent. (This time. I can't claim I've never done that. )

I was trying to be true to my own beliefs: God is neither male nor female, so it's best to vary the pronouns.

As for C.E./B.C.E., I was using those terms long before you and I began conversing here.

 

[Nova]

“You wuz born a deer, you wuz
raised a deer, but now you is a catfish”.

Very funny!

 

[Dark Knight]

???? What does this have to do with wether or not Muslims actively proselytize?

Everything. And nothing. You figure that one out, professor.

 

[Dark Knight]

Honestly, that wasn't my intent. (This time. I can't claim I've never done that. )

I KNEW IT!!!!!!!!!! LOL!

 

[Cypros]

I never said Islam and Christianity are the same. Hardly. But compared to Judaism, at least in theory, Islam and Christianity seem more alike on this issue.

I will certainly take your word for it that contemporary Muslims are not as aggressive as Christian missionaries (but of course neither are most contemporary Christians).

They aren't? Then how do you explain the proselytizers in my neighborhood (they have stopped coming to my door) every few weeks, and little Jesus booklets are placed in mailboxes all across America, and that it is not uncommon to find someone standing on a street corner preaching and condemning all of us to hell is we do not accept Jesus as our Lord? When my brother and his family relocated to a new State, they encountered a very aggressive effort to identify their religion and make them active participants in the local church (the one associated with a recently miraculously cured minister). I hear o similar experiences all over the country. Quite a number of my college students have already participated in mission work (Catholic missions in this case). Cultures all over the world are being decimated by the conversion of traditional societies and belief systems to a hierarchical and Christianity. I remember stories of all of the missionaries waiting just over the border during the initial invasion of Iraq, waiting for the opportunity to sweep in and convert the muslims.

If you visit Jerusalem you will be bombarded with Christians of various denominations hanging out at the popular tourist traps to trap visitors and try to convert them. This is the only case where I have witnessed Jewish "proselytizers", although they are not interested in the goyim. They want to get the lapsed Jews and introduce them to orthodoxy.

 

[UM&AMWfan]

Well that ended what had been a civil and intelligent discussion up to this point. That sure sounds like an unbiased site. :slap:

The www.GodisImaginary.com site actually offers some EVIDENCE that god is simply a creation of man while the religious side has NO EVIDENCE whatsoever, only delusion and dogma.

The burden of proof lies on those who are trying to show a certain process or thing exists and no one in the world can meet that burden.

Get back to me when you can show your god actually exists and isn't anything more than a fairy tale.

 

[Details]

Go to some countries and try converting a Muslim to Christianity or Judaism and you will be killed. Seems to be a one way street as far as consequences.

Some countries sure - but not all of them. Not that Christian missionaries often pay attention to whether or not the host country wants them. But when a country is essentially a theocracy, as many of the middle eastern countries are (and to an extent, so is China) - they're going to take an attempt to get people to change religions as an attempt at toppling a government.

But there are some muslim majority countries that are not theocracies.

I sometimes think a religion grows up just like a child, going through several different states - and Islam is where Christianity was duing it's worst times - the Inquisition, you could be killed for converting or not being wiling to become a christian, Kings and such using religion to justify their reign, corrupt churchmen, etc. Christianity grew out of it - but it takes time. I'm hoping Islam can too - they're trying to, things are changing, but it's slow. Still, I think it's worth remembering that Christianity did this too, when we're looking at how horrible they are today.

 

[IrishMist]

The www.GodisImaginary.com site actually offers some EVIDENCE that god is simply a creation of man while the religious side has NO EVIDENCE whatsoever, only delusion and dogma.

The burden of proof lies on those who are trying to show a certain process or thing exists and no one in the world can meet that burden.

Get back to me when you can show your god actually exists and isn't anything more than a fairy tale.

UM & AMW, I see you haven't been here long. So I'll clue you in on something. We are not allowed to debate whether or not God exists. That is outside the Terms of Service.

Dark Knight is a good and honorable person, who believes deeply, and lives by what he believes- not just lip service. That's more than I can say about alot of folks, religious or not. We treat each other with respect on this board.

 

[Details]

The www.GodisImaginary.com site actually offers some EVIDENCE that god is simply a creation of man while the religious side has NO EVIDENCE whatsoever, only delusion and dogma.

The burden of proof lies on those who are trying to show a certain process or thing exists and no one in the world can meet that burden.

Get back to me when you can show your god actually exists and isn't anything more than a fairy tale.

You can't prove god exists or doesn't exist - there's no way to be certain. Heck, you can't even prove you exist - this whole world is, as you should know, merely an elaborate dream I am having right now. I might dream you knock on my door and introduce yourself, but that doesn't make you real. I just wish I'd stop dreaming that my cat is sitting here in front of my monitor while I'm trying to type!

Individual elements of these stories can be shown to be true or false, but it's so far back in the past, that you can't be 100% sure we've found everything, and any of that may simple prove the bible is more metaphorical than previously thought (to those who believe) - like the bit about if Elijah really ascended into heaven, or is this a poetical way of saying he moved on to another place - maybe the same could be true of Jesus, etc.

 

[Maral]

I was going to answer UM&AMWfan's post, but I can't say anything better than IM and Details did in their excellent posts.

 

[Nova]

I was going to answer UM&AMWfan's post, but I can't say anything better than IM and Details did in their excellent posts.

Amen. Except Details got one thing wrong: the world is MY dream and the rest of you don't exist.