Does Baez Actually Believe Casey is Innocent? - A Philosophical Discussion

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It seems a little odd that Casey was offered a brief plea deal prior to the discovery of her daughter's body - when the death penalty was off the table, and she and Baez just kept on playing it like the fiddler never got tired, like she would not get caught. The minute she was caught, the death penalty was on and ... it strikes me as though her lawyer dropped the ball on the first day - when the drowning defense might have worked ... after refusing the plea deal, it's hard to believe that it was an accident.

She couldn't take that plea. The plea would have been conditional on her showing where the body was, and that the body was consistent with her story. She knew back then that as soon as anyone saw the duct tape it was all over.

And that's also where the whole concept of claiming that it was an accidental death but she panicked and staged a fake kidnapping crashes to earth as well. The "she staged a fake kidnapping in a panic" only becomes believable if someone actually is told that the child was kidnapped. The only possible reason to apply duct tape to that child post mortem would have also required that she attempt to sell that same story by telling someone that the child had been taken. Without an actual report of a kidnapping starting from her, there was no fake kidnap plan. She was simply disposing of a murdered body.
 
They all are. Not a court appointed or public defender on the team.

what if the jury thinks they are PD's and feel she's not getting good counsel and feel sorry for her and vote on lesser charges since "the poor thing has inexperienced attorneys given by the state"? its been said in court i believe that she was delcared indigent so that could mislead jurors
 
I don't think he knows for sure that Casey premeditated the murder of her child, but surely doesn't think she's totally innocent of anything that happened. She wouldn't have confessed to him either, but told him the story that he's using for defense. I'm kind of tired of the media saying that Casey is destroying everyone's lives yet they say all sorts of things about Baez, such as he's narcissistic, had an affair with her, stupid, flirting, etc. I haven't seen all the interraction between Baezy and Casey but it looks to me like he's freaked out by her. Never makes eye contact, a forced smile, changes position, moves his hand, and has uncomfortable looks on his face. He has to know she's guilty and looks forward to not having to deal with her.

i think it took him a while to get there. i remember in the MAKE HIM STOP hearing JB's mike was up (listen on youtube) ICA is crying, JB's put his arm around her and asks "are you ok sweetheart" very lovingly
 
Then when I was in college I worked in his office in exchange for my tuition. And my eyes were opened to my own ignorance. There are a whole lot of innocent, needy people who get dragged into the legal system. Just because an ex-wife accuses a father of touching his daughter does not make it so. These are the people who need a good, powerful attorney.

And besides all of that, even 'guilty' people need representation. That is how our Justice system works, and if there were no lawyers willing to help the accused, it would simply fall apart. So I felt the need to say a good word for my father, maybe because of all those years that I was ashamed of his noble career.

ETA: My dad was on a very friendly basis with some state attorneys and members of the prosecution. He used to make a habit of having a steak dinner with opposing counsel after a big trial--loser picks up the tab. I went on a few of those dinners and things were always cordial and upbeat. These attorneys need good working relationships with each other. Most of the cases were dealt with by pleading things out and that takes cooperation.

Defense Attorneys are not evil people. They are part of the process.

Thanks for saying this; I think it bears repeating. Some others have had good responses, too.

I have to say, respectfully, that it worries me that anyone might question the role, value, and morality of defense lawyers simply because of this case. Like katydid said, they serve an important purpose and without them our justice system would be, to say the least, unjust. Without proper representation, judgments against even the guiltiest people mean nothing; it's only when someone is found guilty with adequate counsel that justice is served.

(And, I have to say it: if defense lawyers strike some as amoral or only in it for the money, some also argue that prosecutors are vengeful, determined not necessarily for justice but for pinning the blame on the weakest target. I don't think either viewpoint is fair at all.)

Now, I do agree that Baez comes across as smarmy and sometimes inadequate; his and Mason's condescension have irritated me greatly! But please don't besmirch the whole profession--one of the cornerstones of due process--because of them!
 
While I understand that everyone is entitled to a vigorous defense because that is how the justice system works, many of us are sincerely wondering how the DT can sleep at night with this case, with the monumental amount of evidence against the inmate.

Do you genuinely think that JB, CM etc truly believe that the inmate had nothing to do with Caylee's death?

Aside from any other reason for taking on this case (for fame, to become DP qualified, as a final swan song before retirement, for the potential income for book deals & interviews down the road, etc) do you really think in their hearts and guts she is innocent?

BBM

Of course not. I don't even think JB would care one way or anther if his client, any client, actually did the deal. JB sees fame, fortune, riches, book deals, movie deals, in his future. :cow: Why let a little thing like the truth stand in his way? I'm sure JB envisions portraying himself in that movie he dreams about.

Now maybe in the beginning he thought, "she could be innocent", especially when they were hugging and sharing licorice sticks in the jail's private visitor suite. He was infatuated by ... well... I don't know ... but we know she attracts men. Once the child's body was found there was an distinct change in the way he acted toward her. He's still her attorney, so my guess is, the truth and JB, just like the truth and Ms Anthony, are strangers. :cow:

Don't forget, JB said this case was going to make him the first Hispanic attorney to do --- something. :confused: That's his goal. Whatever it may be. :D

As for the rest of the Defense Team, I think Mason is in it for "fun", as he stated. He done with his career, so I don't think he cares about her innocence or guilt. The other team members, I think they are willing to do their jobs and learn from the experience.
 
Yes, I believe he and her whole team believe she is guilty. How they can defend a child killer is beyond me. He probably did not know for sure that she killed her child at first but somewhere at the beginning of the case he must have known. I also believe that Baez knew where that baby was before they ever found her. I believe that Dominic Casey found Caylee from Casey's description. Baez should have made some sort of deal long before this case went to trial but he likes seeing himself in lights. They call him a celebrity in Florida. He eats it up.
 
In the beginning he may have. I don't think it took him long to figure it out. It is just awful to see the lenghts he is willing to go in ruining as many lives as possible on ICA's way down.

I get a person is deserving of a vigorous defense but it seems the only thing vigorous about this defense is the dancing around getting to showing how this is a tragic accident and not a murder.
 
IMO, if Baez believed Casey was innocent, his demeanor would be different. He'd be serious and diligent, detail-oriented, determined, passionate, etc. instead of being smug, sneaky, and sloppy. He would have been pouring over the evidence and depositions from the beginning instead of procrastinating. Also, he would have had the professionals who mentally examined her testify.

Who really chaps me, though, is LKB. At least Baez has an excuse to defend her even if he knows she's guilty.
 
IMO, if Baez believed Casey was innocent, his demeanor would be different. He'd be serious and diligent, detail-oriented, determined, passionate, etc. instead of being smug, sneaky, and sloppy. He would have been pouring over the evidence and depositions from the beginning instead of procrastinating. Also, he would have had the professionals who mentally examined her testify.

Who really chaps me, though, is LKB. At least Baez has an excuse to defend her even if he knows she's guilty.

His attitude sure does not emote that he is serious and on top of his craft. He does not have every i dotted and T crossed. He does not come across as he believes what he is trying to sell.
 
Um...in the beginning, I think JB could have believed, as so many did, that an accident happened, that Caylee was sold, or otherwise given away. Generally, a lawyer does not want to know anyway.
But, a lawyer does need to know some things. A lawyer representing someone in a DUI case will certainly ask his client to explain to him what happened. Within that explanation, the client will likely make some sort of admission. I suppose this case could have been different.
But, at some point, KC had to tell JB she was lying about Zenaida.
What an attorney does next is where it counts, and there can be several directions to go. Remembering the OJ case, I always thought it was apparent in Robert Shapiro's face that he knew what OJ had done and he was disgusted. Johnny Cochran had a better poker face. Both defended their client, Cochran more vigorously than Shapiro, IMO. Cochran used the race card as it was a very strong tool in the aftermath of Rodney King. Dispicable? Yes. Effective? Very. But from what I recall, Johnny Cochran used what little he had and worked with it and around it-He did not create a massive series of misinformation and lies. And speaking of the OJ case, an attorney's personal life can be effected by their caseload-Ask Kris Jenner what she thought of her husband betraying her best friend.
And maybe JB's family is effected as well, we'll likely never know.
Either way, JB made a choice that I would have never made; Once it became apparent that KC was completely lying, once he found out where Caylee was, because I firmly believe she told him and the info got to DomC, it was his ethical and perhaps legal duty to forego any attempt to blame this crime on anyone else.
The classical scope of work of a defense attorney in the English justice system, all the way back to the days of the Magna Carta, is to insure that fair, and now constitutional, rights are not infringed by any king or government. I know we have come many centuries beyond that and the whole thing has morphed into putting on a spectacular case-But in my literal mind, all JB is obligated to do is to make sure that KC is not being oppressed by the government or wrongly accused by the people because of handicap, race, sex, or class-think Salem Witch burnings.
It drives me mad that the experienced attorneys of the state, who are bound to be fair, that some 80%+ of people polled early in this case, many of us in the public who knew something was hinky from the very beginning, and KC's own friends and family members knew from human instinct and common sense, that Caylee met foul play in the care of her mother-yet we have to set aside this common sense and ponder whether Roy Kronk did this? Whether Jesse did this? Whether George did this?
Americans are not cave people, we are not uncivilized, we are not riotous-for the most part. We are a people who are bound by rule of law and honestly, trust. Do we run red lights when no one is around to see it? Not most of us. Do we accuse innocent people of murder on the daily? Not most of us.
I am not in the hate Americans crowd, I believe my countrymen are fair and most especially when they are vetted by both the defense and the state.
When the evidence is so stinkin overwhelming, it is maddening that an attorrney would go to these lengths to cover up what I believe he knew whether or not KC told him. As if she is persecuted.
All JB was obligated to do was to protect her rights. He was in no way obligated to lie for her and he is, and it burns my butt.
And Johnny paid the ultimate price- according to other members of the defense team, they all knew the truth- the stress of it caused Johnny to die of cancer, and he took his secret to his grave!
 
I gave this more thought...and I hope this is not senseless...

Maybe JB did not know to start with. Likely he did not.
Then, after the Zenaida thing proved to be a lie, maybe he knew more. Then more, then more.
I have thought for a long time that KC admitted she killed Caylee to him. BUT, and here's what I've been pondering today...did she tell him why? Did she tell him (get ready, folks, this is MOO) that she hated the brat (her thoughts), only enjoyed her when it was easy but could not stand it when Caylee whined, could not stand that CA loved her so much, could not stand it when Caylee nooky-blocked her? So she killed her mercilessly and in cold blood?
I am hard pressed to believe that a father, JB, could be in the same room with her for hours, flirt with her, play courtroom games with her, if she told him the cold hard facts. Remember when it dawned on Shapiro and Kardashian that OJ was guilty of such a vile act and felt no remorse? You could see the disgust on their faces and they did not go out of their way for him, they did not play with him in court or do a lot of back slapping. They did just enough for him.
Now, Westefields's attorney did know, but even in that case, I think the attorney probably chalked it up to Westerfield being a sick person (and the attorney was pretty sick, too, IMO), and I think when Westerfield revealed where Danielle's body was that there was some shade of remorse and shame. None with KC.

Is it possible that JB does know that KC hated Caylee and killed her out of pure, unabashed and remorseless hate? Or does he think she is only acting remorseless because she's "wierd?"

To suggest that he knows she is that calculated would be suggesting that JB is like Wayne Gayle in Natural Born Killers. That he is feeding off of her blood lust. Otherwise, how could he bring himself to be so unaffected? That is so hard for me to accept, even from JB.
 
No, I believe he thinks she mentally off and is only going with what she gave him to try to save her life.

ABSOLUTELY HE KNOWS CASEY DID THIS! However, JB does blame the parents in the big scheme of things. Here was a young lady that could have very well, BEEN a successful woman, parent, daughter. But perhaps in JB's mind Cindy and George should have forced "the spoiled little 2 yr old" to grow up and take responsibility for her actions. I have no doubt, that JB believes with all his heart, that if she was "raised" better, Casey would be a different person.

He even says it in his cross to Cindy, "You raised her to tell the truth right?"

Casey is so unbalanced that she agrees with JB that it's all CA and GA's fault.
 
Thanks for saying this; I think it bears repeating. Some others have had good responses, too.

I have to say, respectfully, that it worries me that anyone might question the role, value, and morality of defense lawyers simply because of this case. Like katydid said, they serve an important purpose and without them our justice system would be, to say the least, unjust. Without proper representation, judgments against even the guiltiest people mean nothing; it's only when someone is found guilty with adequate counsel that justice is served.

(And, I have to say it: if defense lawyers strike some as amoral or only in it for the money, some also argue that prosecutors are vengeful, determined not necessarily for justice but for pinning the blame on the weakest target. I don't think either viewpoint is fair at all.)

Now, I do agree that Baez comes across as smarmy and sometimes inadequate; his and Mason's condescension have irritated me greatly! But please don't besmirch the whole profession--one of the cornerstones of due process--because of them!

I agree and don't think that all defense attorneys misbehave. I don't think RichardH does, I don't think BillS does, I don't think Robert Shapiro did and I don't think my own past defense attorney did. These attorneys have all listed legal reasons to defend a client/KC, not fairytales that they know not to be true.
For instance, JB knows there was no food in the trashbag. So he LIED.
I don't think we can be blind to the fact that there are attorneys on both sides (though state's/commonwealth's counsels are not only elected officials but are bound by major rules of ethics beyond those of defense attorneys) that cross the line into major unethical territory and, QUITE FRANKLY, lying. Nifong ring a bell? There's your example of a smarmy prosecutor. Unacceptable.
 
Defense attorneys are necessary if a justice system is to work, so I won't say a bad word about their choice of profession. But that said, I think some kind of a boundary has been crossed somewhere and JB is no stranger to lies himself.
Witness:

"Caylee is alive"
"We believe there is evidence that Roy Kronk is responsible for her disappearance and death"
"Caylee drowned and George dumped her body and Roy Kronk was nowhere near until he moved the body in August in a morally bankrupt manner and thereafter LE and ME and FBI lab workers plus a bunch of expert witnesses from out of state conspired to show Casey was guilty"


There is just no way that he believed all that and is sane at the same time, and I am uncomfortable with the let's-throw-everybody-under-the-bus style of defense.
 
I think in the very beginning she told him her 'friend' Zenaida took the child and she needed help finding her. He took on the role of her knight in shining armor. Then as his investigators began to dig around they told him that was not true. THEN I believe she told him it was an accident. But by that time the SA was not going to be too lenient. So he was sucked into this thing and here we are.
 
I think in the very beginning she told him her 'friend' Zenaida took the child and she needed help finding her. He took on the role of her knight in shining armor. Then as his investigators began to dig around they told him that was not true. THEN I believe she told him it was an accident. But by that time the SA was not going to be too lenient. So he was sucked into this thing and here we are.
I think you're right about the first part, but I don't believe Casey agreed to the accidental drowning part until just recently when the defense publicly revealed that there was no Zanny the nanny. I think that's when Cindy stopped looking- 6 weeks ago?
 
I think he knows she did it, but not from anything ICA told him. Maybe in the beginning I think he probably thought she might be covering for someone, a boyfriend with a temper or something (we've all seen cases like that here), but as time wore on and more came out, I think he got the big picture. I believe that yes, he is motivated by this trial being a potential career-maker, but I also truly believe that he doesn't believe this is a DP case. Lawyers have to retain some objectivity, but as long as a case like this takes, you get to know your client a little, and whether he actually likes her or not, I'm sure he doesn't want to see her put to death - personally or professionally.

It will be interesting to see if ICA takes the stand. I know an attorney can't suborn perjury, but seriously, with ICA how can you tell? If you get a different story now than you did five days ago, who's to say which is the truth - or if they're both lies?
 
Don't you think when this case is over... CASEY will throw Jose under the bus? She'll claim he touched her (I swear she's going to tell us they had an affair)..plus she'll use the ineffective council bit..., Casey will tell us that this defense about molestation etc was all Jose's idea... Unfortunately I think we're going to have to hear from Casey for the rest of our lives. Just like the Manson people every now and then you hear about them from jail. Hopefully she won't be on death row so there will be more of a chance someone in prison will get her and take care of her for good.
 
While I understand that everyone is entitled to a vigorous defense because that is how the justice system works, many of us are sincerely wondering how the DT can sleep at night with this case, with the monumental amount of evidence against the inmate.

Do you genuinely think that JB, CM etc truly believe that the inmate had nothing to do with Caylee's death?

Aside from any other reason for taking on this case (for fame, to become DP qualified, as a final swan song before retirement, for the potential income for book deals & interviews down the road, etc) do you really think in their hearts and guts she is innocent?

They are acting as if she is....I don't understand how an attorney could lie about the facts, bring in a fact that is not part of the trial and run with it as if everyone else is wrong and they could only be right.

I don't know or understand how a defense attorney can believe someone is guilty and want them released of their charges, scott free...Had Baez OS not bring GA into this, and just said, ICA panicked when she found a drowned Caylee and came up with this kidnapping out of fear for whatever, she's have half a chance of the lesser included charges. I have a gut feeling, this DT did their client in and it might just backfire on ICA and could be sent to death. Jurors don't like to be taken for a fool. I don't believe they want to be lied to...they will take this out on ICA and in the end, she will be the fat lady that sings for I do believe Baez will come under fire...ICA will ruin him for she will fight back vindictively and sadisticly...as we see how she is still taking great pleasure in torturing her parents...

Funny how Baez wants her acquitted and told the jurors to send her home...Home where? She burnt all her bridges and why would he want her sent back to the house of horrors? Unless, he's willing to take her in as a full time nanny for his new child.... :maddening: JMHO

Justice for Caylee
 
From the very beginning, his actions have impressed me as those of one who knew his client was guilty.
I think he decided this was a cash cow for him and a portal to fame.
Nothing he has done since would allow me to believe he ever thought his client was innocent.
He claimed Caylee was alive and missing.
Even after TBlack let it slip that the child was dead, he claimed otherwise.
He wanted his client to be let out of jail a week or so before the grand jury to search for her child. IMO, he knew about the duct tape then.
He also said it did not serve his client's best interests to tell the police what she knew.
Ehm, really? How would it not serve her to tell that Caylee died accidentally?

Also, he collected his own evidence and kept it from authorities.
 

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