BeanE
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I don't know about Portland public schools as a whole, but Skyline did. See upthread. It's in their handbook. A good two step process.
Does Skyline school bear any responsibility?
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I don't know about Portland public schools as a whole, but Skyline did. See upthread. It's in their handbook. A good two step process.
BeanE
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School started at 8:45 with the final bell. Regular classes were delayed until 10. In the interim, the science fair was conducted, with the students attending that.
BeanE
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We don't know whether or not the school checked the attendance sheet against the student sign out sheet. It is that very thing that may be what allegedly led the school to believe that Terri took Kyron to a doctor's appointment. I am eager to find this out.
Note that this could be what LE has that is something of a smoking gun.
The other thing would be the paperwork Terri allegedly gave the teacher the day before. This may be what served as the signed note that's required as part of the procedure, or may have been accompanied by the required signed note. Either or both may have a June 4 date, versus the June 11 date reported by the friend as the appointment date. If so, smoking gun (sort of).
At least they would be smoking guns for it having been Terri who removed Kyron from the school.
BeanE
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Everything I've looked at indicates that students were to report to school for school starting at 8:45 at the final bell. It is only classes that were delayed until 10.
One indication we can look at is the buses. They did not arrive at the school at 10 - they arrived at the normal time, for an 8:45 normal school start time.
BeanE
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In the evening hours - it depends.
If the event was intended for parents and children, I think it would be a reasonable legal (and moral) expectation that responsibility for the children fell to their parents - not the school.If an evening event was for students - and parents could attend if they wished - then legally and morally, responsibility for the children would fall to the school.
This event was for students, during normal school hours, and parents could attend if they wished. Responsibility fell to the school. It helps to think in terms of the children arriving on buses without parents attending.
BeanE
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I'd thought of that too, although not in terms of it not being anyone's business. Rather I thought of it in terms of the teacher not wanting a string of questions to ensue based on Kyron's friends worrying. "Oh no! Did he get sick? Is he going to be okay? Did he throw up?" etc etc etc. Children worry, some more than others, and she may have had a known worrier in the class. TP may have been that worrier. She may have been trying to avert anxiety.
It's a distinct possibility.
gliving
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In the evening hours - it depends.
If an evening event was for students - and parents could attend if they wished - then legally and morally, responsibility for the children would fall to the school.
This event was for students, during normal school hours, and parents could attend if they wished. Responsibility fell to the school. It helps to think in terms of the children arriving on buses without parents attending.
Yes, I agree. If it's during the scheduled school hours, including field trips, the school staff is responsible for the students. If it's outside of normal school hours, such as a ball game, track meet, school carnival, then the parent is responsible. That's why a student asks their parent, not their teacher, for permission to attend a school sponsored evening event.
When my children attended evening events, I knew it was my responsibility, not the teacher's, to make sure they behaved and didn't wander off.
I was thinking more on the TP thing.
TP lives next door to the missing child.
The FBI apparently told people not to talk, but what does the grandmother do? She gets her grandson on camera. I think that puts insight into her personality.
Teacher's have to be confidential, and I can see TP asking , "Why?" the family was going to the doctor.
The "sub" may also have been a person who did not need to hear the info that the family was going to the doctor. Hence, the vague answer.
I can see little TP going home to Grandma with the info that the missing child was going to the doctor and the Grandma on the horn to Terri.
I imagine that is the last thing the teacher needed or wanted.
TP lives next door to the missing child.
The FBI apparently told people not to talk, but what does the grandmother do? She gets her grandson on camera. I think that puts insight into her personality.
Teacher's have to be confidential, and I can see TP asking , "Why?" the family was going to the doctor.
The "sub" may also have been a person who did not need to hear the info that the family was going to the doctor. Hence, the vague answer.
I can see little TP going home to Grandma with the info that the missing child was going to the doctor and the Grandma on the horn to Terri.
I imagine that is the last thing the teacher needed or wanted.
Working in my retirement in a 7-12 public school as a monitor-chaparone-security guy, I have a little insight. We are about a mile or so out of a sprawling city of a million people. We are unique to most schools and a little like Skyline. We never had cameras, until this year, now we have two and are expecting more. There are only a couple of ways to get in and out of our area. We are not near any interstate or getaway access roads. We are closed in by mountains and bordered by washes. There are no businesses within a mile and a half. Each parent or guardian must sign in. Now on honor roll breakfast or days where they have projects parents flood in from several parking areas and get in to help deliver these projects. Yes we do not have a perfect solution. The way the school district was set up 30 plus years ago, they became the community resourse for polls, red cross, boy scouts, etc.
On top of that the school grounds are like a park, where the neighborhood uses the park for dog walking, jogging, soccer, baseball, lacrosse. This was a grandfather rule with the county. Between 7 and 4 o'clock the neighborhood stays off school grounds. If the last bond had not passed my partner would have lost his job or at best half time. There is always a more secure sight with schools in heavier populations. In the city here as with the county we have been without RSO's now for 2 years.Usually when there is a custody battle the administrators call for a sheriff. Schools unfortunately run their business to keep kids at all costs. If each kid is a value of so many thousand a year they do not want them running off to a charter or another district. Since I have been there, no one has been expelled. It has to go to the district board. Some kids have been kept the alloted time to give the school credit for the semester.They will put these kids in online classes to get some form of money back for their district. With the economy still trying to get off the floor, it is going to be hard for some districts to do enough to lock these schools up like they should. I am sure Skyline has made some improvements.
Lots of crimes that happen when perps seem to have slipped out is because of luck--not because they were particularly smart.
I guess our school has been safe because we have been a generational district that was closed until 2 years ago, when we started open enrollment. The innocense of this upper class school is being sort of invaded by teens that have had, for whatever reason, trouble in their district. So parents think by sending them to a softer safer environment like our district is the answer. In my view the district is getting more money but much more trouble. Our school tends to have its safety issues on campus more than from outside perps. In 2 years our jr. high will move to a new location and the high school will be on its own. I can't wait. It has been taxing on us with all the drama of 8th grade girls and high school boys- hope all this helps-I just do not know of any perfect system. One of the lunch ladies husband is head of school safety in the large city district. He says they have had some bad stuff inner city of attempted abductions by one parent or another, but most conflicts are in buses or bus stops, or at sporting events and dances. I remember the days!
On top of that the school grounds are like a park, where the neighborhood uses the park for dog walking, jogging, soccer, baseball, lacrosse. This was a grandfather rule with the county. Between 7 and 4 o'clock the neighborhood stays off school grounds. If the last bond had not passed my partner would have lost his job or at best half time. There is always a more secure sight with schools in heavier populations. In the city here as with the county we have been without RSO's now for 2 years.Usually when there is a custody battle the administrators call for a sheriff. Schools unfortunately run their business to keep kids at all costs. If each kid is a value of so many thousand a year they do not want them running off to a charter or another district. Since I have been there, no one has been expelled. It has to go to the district board. Some kids have been kept the alloted time to give the school credit for the semester.They will put these kids in online classes to get some form of money back for their district. With the economy still trying to get off the floor, it is going to be hard for some districts to do enough to lock these schools up like they should. I am sure Skyline has made some improvements.
Lots of crimes that happen when perps seem to have slipped out is because of luck--not because they were particularly smart.
I guess our school has been safe because we have been a generational district that was closed until 2 years ago, when we started open enrollment. The innocense of this upper class school is being sort of invaded by teens that have had, for whatever reason, trouble in their district. So parents think by sending them to a softer safer environment like our district is the answer. In my view the district is getting more money but much more trouble. Our school tends to have its safety issues on campus more than from outside perps. In 2 years our jr. high will move to a new location and the high school will be on its own. I can't wait. It has been taxing on us with all the drama of 8th grade girls and high school boys- hope all this helps-I just do not know of any perfect system. One of the lunch ladies husband is head of school safety in the large city district. He says they have had some bad stuff inner city of attempted abductions by one parent or another, but most conflicts are in buses or bus stops, or at sporting events and dances. I remember the days!
I haven't read the whole thread so excuse me if this was already mentioned.
I talked to my friend who is our school district administrator's secretary - more like assistant- and posted this info somewhere in one of the threads before. She's been in her position for many years.
In her opinion - she is not a lawyer - it will boil down to when school was officially in session that day. When the schools have events like this one, oftentimes their official start time is delayed. If they were on the regular start time that day, they should have taken roll call at that time and then it would be slam dunk. However, since they took roll call later on that day, it led her to believe that was the official start time.
She said it still could get muddy, though. When a child enters a school bus, the school is responsible. When child is walking to school and touches school property, the school is responsible. If there is an event and a parent brings them, the parent is responsible until they hand the child over to the school.
I talked to my friend who is our school district administrator's secretary - more like assistant- and posted this info somewhere in one of the threads before. She's been in her position for many years.
In her opinion - she is not a lawyer - it will boil down to when school was officially in session that day. When the schools have events like this one, oftentimes their official start time is delayed. If they were on the regular start time that day, they should have taken roll call at that time and then it would be slam dunk. However, since they took roll call later on that day, it led her to believe that was the official start time.
She said it still could get muddy, though. When a child enters a school bus, the school is responsible. When child is walking to school and touches school property, the school is responsible. If there is an event and a parent brings them, the parent is responsible until they hand the child over to the school.
I have some questions about TP's report. First of all, the conversation is so nothing in a course of day, that why would he remember it verbatim, considering all of the exciting things of the day?
The "sub" said that she was leaving. We know that the tour could not have been conducted with Kyron as he was not seen in his classroom after 8:45.
So if she was leaving to take her group, then Kyron was not in her group as she would not leave Kyron while he is in the bathroom.
For purposes of funding, we have to conduct school until 1:00 PM. That means no money is received unless school is held until those hours. For example, if a water main breaks and the school has to clsoe at 10 AM, the state provides no money.
So I am not sure what the criteria is for counting a student present. I have not seen that addressed.
I think that attendance may be taken when it is reasonable. Children do arrive late sometimes, but Skyline does not look like a school for walkers which causes more late arrivals, I would imagine.
I wonder,, as a teacher, if that is true that a school is responsible when a child arrives on school property when a walker arrives. I work at a very low income school and several children come to school early and play on the playground . They are not allowed into the school until 8:35 and our final bell is 8:45.
It is an interesting concept and I wonder if our school district has a policy or law on that.
The "sub" said that she was leaving. We know that the tour could not have been conducted with Kyron as he was not seen in his classroom after 8:45.
So if she was leaving to take her group, then Kyron was not in her group as she would not leave Kyron while he is in the bathroom.
For purposes of funding, we have to conduct school until 1:00 PM. That means no money is received unless school is held until those hours. For example, if a water main breaks and the school has to clsoe at 10 AM, the state provides no money.
So I am not sure what the criteria is for counting a student present. I have not seen that addressed.
I think that attendance may be taken when it is reasonable. Children do arrive late sometimes, but Skyline does not look like a school for walkers which causes more late arrivals, I would imagine.
I wonder,, as a teacher, if that is true that a school is responsible when a child arrives on school property when a walker arrives. I work at a very low income school and several children come to school early and play on the playground . They are not allowed into the school until 8:35 and our final bell is 8:45.
It is an interesting concept and I wonder if our school district has a policy or law on that.
miabellamoure
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Just like Kimster...I too, have not been able to read the entire thread so, forgive me if this has been mentioned already.
Rather than see another lawsuit come out of this case, I'd rather see the school district voluntarily agree to install or upgrade better surveillance & security systems & plans into ALL of their schools.
Skyline Elementary School was lacking to say the least...
Rather than see another lawsuit come out of this case, I'd rather see the school district voluntarily agree to install or upgrade better surveillance & security systems & plans into ALL of their schools.
Skyline Elementary School was lacking to say the least...
<snipped>
The information I provided is based on another school district in Oregon. She said it is a district liability and is not sure if it is an insurance issue or a state issue? She doesn't know. If she finds out, I'll update.
kgeaux
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If the playground is on school property, then sure the school is responsible for the safety of the children. I'm really talking about a scenario like if a child fell down and broke his arm, not if a child arrives on school property and is taken away----but, if school staff are aware that children are on the playground and the school has sanctioned their presence or has not taken steps to prevent the children from accessing school property before the bell rings, then I'd be willing to guess that the school would be liable. It sounds as though staff members are aware that children are both arriving early and using the playground before school hours.
Most schools provide a safe, supervised place for early drop-offs/walkers to wait for the bell.
What you've described would never fly on a middle class campus. Parents would be screaming for supervision AND a covered, climate controlled area for their children to wait!
the playground is available to all community members at any time.
I have written about this several times and we are having new schools built to the utter disgust of a lot of people here. They even complained to a state legislator who weighed in on it and said how horrible it was that the new schools are being built.
The new schools are not done, but the playgrounds, I don't think, are accessible to the public, but I'm not sure.
Parents either drop their kids off early at school as "free daycare" as they are at the school but under no supervision, or children walk there early and leave home for what reason? I don't know.
To me. school starts at a specific time, so that would seem that is when the liability would start. But I don't know.
There are teachers sent out to monitor the halls at some point before school starts because the children are allowed inside to wait.
My classes always started much earlier as I had a class that was a special program, therefore I never had hall duty and didn't pay much attention to it.
I did have sibs come in and read to the sibs or play educational games. It never once crossed my mind until now that that may have not been a good idea.
What a world. For years now, I never hug a child unless the child initiates it. I never have anyone work with a child or be with a child alone for any reason.
We had a child who soiled his clothing and we could not find a parent to come and get him. I had 2 people come from the office to give the child a shower. And who's to say the child wouldn't say something strange about two people.
Schools have to be all things to all children. Teachers buy children shoes and clothing. They have to be psychologists to see if there is anything wrong. They provide children with lunch money and snacks . And now we have to figure out a way to take care of them if a parent drops the child off early but cannot afford daycare. My school has a washing machine, so we even wash clothing that just is too filthy.
And now you can't even trust the parents. You have to follow up on them as well, even if the person has appeared to be responsible.
I am so THANKFUL I am not in a classroom anymore.
I have written about this several times and we are having new schools built to the utter disgust of a lot of people here. They even complained to a state legislator who weighed in on it and said how horrible it was that the new schools are being built.
The new schools are not done, but the playgrounds, I don't think, are accessible to the public, but I'm not sure.
Parents either drop their kids off early at school as "free daycare" as they are at the school but under no supervision, or children walk there early and leave home for what reason? I don't know.
To me. school starts at a specific time, so that would seem that is when the liability would start. But I don't know.
There are teachers sent out to monitor the halls at some point before school starts because the children are allowed inside to wait.
My classes always started much earlier as I had a class that was a special program, therefore I never had hall duty and didn't pay much attention to it.
I did have sibs come in and read to the sibs or play educational games. It never once crossed my mind until now that that may have not been a good idea.
What a world. For years now, I never hug a child unless the child initiates it. I never have anyone work with a child or be with a child alone for any reason.
We had a child who soiled his clothing and we could not find a parent to come and get him. I had 2 people come from the office to give the child a shower. And who's to say the child wouldn't say something strange about two people.
Schools have to be all things to all children. Teachers buy children shoes and clothing. They have to be psychologists to see if there is anything wrong. They provide children with lunch money and snacks . And now we have to figure out a way to take care of them if a parent drops the child off early but cannot afford daycare. My school has a washing machine, so we even wash clothing that just is too filthy.
And now you can't even trust the parents. You have to follow up on them as well, even if the person has appeared to be responsible.
I am so THANKFUL I am not in a classroom anymore.
BetteDavisEyes
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After reading this thread and having posted earlier, I was curious about current policies at my DD's former elementary school regarding the issues discussed here. Below are excerpts from the most recent handbook from the neighborhood school (early 1980s). How does it compare to your student handbooks? Does it sufficiently address the various concerns that we have discussed on this thread?
ARRIVING AT SCHOOL
Many small tasks and meetings related to the school program take place before classes begin each day. These can be difficult to accomplish if it is also necessary to supervise students who arrive too early. Therefore, children should be instructed to arrive at school no earlier than ten minutes before classes begin. Each grade has an assigned entry door and are to line up by classroom outside the doors in the morning until admitted at 8:30.
ATTENDANCE POLICY
Good attendance is important to academic success. However, occasional tardies, illness and absences may be unavoidable. Please call the Absence Phone Line at xxxxxxxxxx to report a students absence or late arrival. This voice mail system is available 24 hours a day. If we have not received a phone call from an adult by 9 a.m., we will do our "safety check" to find out where the "missing" child is. You can help us by making sure you call the absence line whenever your child does not come to school. If your child is late arriving at school, please be sure that an adult signs him/her in at the office before going to class. Students who arrive late by bus are not marked tardy.
EARLY PICKUP FROM SCHOOL (children leaving while school is in session)
Children are not permitted to go home by themselves while school is in session. This policy is intended for the protection of the child. When it becomes necessary for a child to go home due to illness or a prearranged appointment, a parent, or another responsible person designated by the parent on the students emergency card, must come into the office to sign the child out. The office will call the classroom and have the child report to the office in order to minimize disruption of classrooms. Parents are encouraged to make dental and medical appointments for the children after school hours whenever possible.
CHANGE IN GOING HOME ROUTINE
If a childs going home arrangements should change from his/her usual routine, for example, riding a different bus than usual, or getting off the bus at a different stop, or walking home with a friend, or riding home in another parents car, parents must send in a signed note to the office in the morning. Children often get confused when given verbal instructions about their after-school plans, so we ask that you "put it in writing" so that we can make sure all of our students get safely where they should go. Students are not allowed to call parents to ask to go home with a friend. These plans need to be made prior to coming to school and anote prepared and sent to school with your child.
Please let your child(ren) know where you will meet them OUTSIDE THE SCHOOL BUILDING if you are picking them up at school. Students who are walking home or are meeting someone for a ride home will be dismissed from the south doors in the front of the school. Parents are asked NOT to congregate outside classrooms or in the hallways, as this becomes disruptive to the educational process and creates extra hallway congestion during dismissal.
ARRIVING AT SCHOOL
Many small tasks and meetings related to the school program take place before classes begin each day. These can be difficult to accomplish if it is also necessary to supervise students who arrive too early. Therefore, children should be instructed to arrive at school no earlier than ten minutes before classes begin. Each grade has an assigned entry door and are to line up by classroom outside the doors in the morning until admitted at 8:30.
ATTENDANCE POLICY
Good attendance is important to academic success. However, occasional tardies, illness and absences may be unavoidable. Please call the Absence Phone Line at xxxxxxxxxx to report a students absence or late arrival. This voice mail system is available 24 hours a day. If we have not received a phone call from an adult by 9 a.m., we will do our "safety check" to find out where the "missing" child is. You can help us by making sure you call the absence line whenever your child does not come to school. If your child is late arriving at school, please be sure that an adult signs him/her in at the office before going to class. Students who arrive late by bus are not marked tardy.
EARLY PICKUP FROM SCHOOL (children leaving while school is in session)
Children are not permitted to go home by themselves while school is in session. This policy is intended for the protection of the child. When it becomes necessary for a child to go home due to illness or a prearranged appointment, a parent, or another responsible person designated by the parent on the students emergency card, must come into the office to sign the child out. The office will call the classroom and have the child report to the office in order to minimize disruption of classrooms. Parents are encouraged to make dental and medical appointments for the children after school hours whenever possible.
CHANGE IN GOING HOME ROUTINE
If a childs going home arrangements should change from his/her usual routine, for example, riding a different bus than usual, or getting off the bus at a different stop, or walking home with a friend, or riding home in another parents car, parents must send in a signed note to the office in the morning. Children often get confused when given verbal instructions about their after-school plans, so we ask that you "put it in writing" so that we can make sure all of our students get safely where they should go. Students are not allowed to call parents to ask to go home with a friend. These plans need to be made prior to coming to school and anote prepared and sent to school with your child.
Please let your child(ren) know where you will meet them OUTSIDE THE SCHOOL BUILDING if you are picking them up at school. Students who are walking home or are meeting someone for a ride home will be dismissed from the south doors in the front of the school. Parents are asked NOT to congregate outside classrooms or in the hallways, as this becomes disruptive to the educational process and creates extra hallway congestion during dismissal.
I believe our handbook is pretty much the same as above, except no child may ride the bus with a friend for any reason ever.
And I am quite sure that it tells parents that info about the start times.
That does not stop the parents from dropping off their kids early or kids walking to school early.
When I have seen a child that comes to school really early, I have reported it to the office. But I have never followed up on what happened with the report.
Having no money is awful and the choices parents are forced to make must be horrifying. There is assistance for child care, but the income guidelines to qualify are laughably low. The distance that young children must walk increases as they get older. I believe for kindergarten it is 6 blocks and after that I don't know the distance.
I am glad my children are grown and I have adequate income. So many parents in my low income school work 2 or three crappy jobs just to survive. It's really sad . And there is no time off for sick children and they have unreliable transportation. The city I am by has transportation issues because of the geography of it. No easy fix.
And I am quite sure that it tells parents that info about the start times.
That does not stop the parents from dropping off their kids early or kids walking to school early.
When I have seen a child that comes to school really early, I have reported it to the office. But I have never followed up on what happened with the report.
Having no money is awful and the choices parents are forced to make must be horrifying. There is assistance for child care, but the income guidelines to qualify are laughably low. The distance that young children must walk increases as they get older. I believe for kindergarten it is 6 blocks and after that I don't know the distance.
I am glad my children are grown and I have adequate income. So many parents in my low income school work 2 or three crappy jobs just to survive. It's really sad . And there is no time off for sick children and they have unreliable transportation. The city I am by has transportation issues because of the geography of it. No easy fix.
BetteDavisEyes
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Respectfully edited. Your post prompted me to check the attendance area for the school, and it is exactly the same as it was when we lived in our previous home (1978-1993). The majority of students are "walkers", and the only students who ride buses lived in subdivisions where they have to cross major streets to and from school. This involves a very small percentage of students, so the riding the bus with a friend thing doesn't happen often. jmo
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