Does the State's Case Have Any Weaknesses? What Are They?

[Devon]

ok, But I thought I had read somewhere that purposely hiding a corpse to prevent an autopsy was a factor in deciding what the charges would be.....manslaughter, negligent homicide, murder1 etc. I'm not talking about the DP phase, just the charges themselves. Isn't the hiding of a corpse considered more than just abuse? Like a conspiracy?

Not to my knowledge, although abuse of a corpse is in itself an offence. However, I'm not from the USA so I couldn't say for certain.

 

[Devon]

I believe the state will have an expert on the stand to say there is no reason to put duct tape on a corpse. Dr. Perper (a very experienced coroner) has already stated that as fact. Since the defense says the Nanny did it, they don't need to bring up the duct tape because Casey is completely innocent (riiiiiiiigt). Poor thing, thoses forces are against her. IMO it's a no brainer, especially with the heart sticker. Assuming the duct tape was used to contain fluid (BS), what's the purpose of the heart sticker? To hold more fluid? Any layman seeing/smelling a deceased person in that stage of decomposition would be horrified, especially if it was their own child. I find it unbelievable that she would see her body in that state and take the time to put duct tape and a sticker over her mouth.

It's precisely because of the horrific sight that KC may have encountered when she bagged Caylee's body a couple of days after her death that she may have applied the tape at that stage. The lips and tongue can both swell and distort and she may have wanted to cover that terrible image, possibly placing the sticker there as an 'apology' for applying the tape. It's also possible that the eyes may have similarly been covered in tape, especially if they were still open or seeping. There were apparently other pieces of tape found at the disposal site so they may have been used for similar purposes, but had worn off/fallen off.

I understand that most people don't believe that the tape could have been applied postmortem, but it is still a feasible possibility and so I don't see how Dr Perper can reasonably discount it as a fact.

 

[jon_burrows]

It's precisely because of the horrific sight that KC may have encountered when she bagged Caylee's body a couple of days after her death that she may have applied the tape at that stage. The lips and tongue can both swell and distort and she may have wanted to cover that terrible image, possibly placing the sticker there as an 'apology' for applying the tape. It's also possible that the eyes may have similarly been covered in tape, especially if they were still open or seeping. There were apparently other pieces of tape found at the disposal site so they may have been used for similar purposes, but had worn off/fallen off.

I understand that most people don't believe that the tape could have been applied postmortem, but it is still a feasible possibility and so I don't see how Dr Perper can reasonably discount it as a fact.

Ok, if we follow your logic. Casey has just seen/smelled a horrific sight/odor (her daughter's badly decomposing body). To make it all better she slaps some duct tape on most of Caylee's face (including her eyes now...not sure where that came from) and finishes it off with a sticker (because Casey is such a thoughtful person). She chucks her in the woods in trash bags (like trash) then proceeds to walk arm in arm with Tony to rent a movie, party, steal, get a tattoo, etc for the next month. Does that make reasonable sense? Dr. Perper is a coroner so he has seen for himself all stages of decomposition. He is an expert in the area and as such he can give his expert opinion (I happen to agree with him). Are you a coroner by any chance?

 

[Pink Panther]

Oh my...KC "encounters" Caylee's decomposing corpse and is so shocked by it that to "make it all better" she decides to slap some of her Dad's duct tape over her child's mouth and "seals it all" with a heart! She's such a sensitive soul that KC!

Sure.

BARF.

MOO

 

[Devon]

What was it I was saying earlier about ridicule and sarcasm..........:frown:

 

[Nore]

ok, But I thought I had read somewhere that purposely hiding a corpse to prevent an autopsy was a factor in deciding what the charges would be.....manslaughter, negligent homicide, murder1 etc. I'm not talking about the DP phase, just the charges themselves. Isn't the hiding of a corpse considered more than just abuse? Like a conspiracy?

- --------
I need help. Isn't the murder of a child under 12yrs. an automatic reason for the d.p. in Florida? The duct tape makes it (oh God I cant think of the word!) automatic homicide? Thats not it but close.I fully believe the M.E. in Florida.She is an outstanding M.E.,really goes through the case before making a judgment.If Dr. G. said homicide ~ it was homicide...If this had been an accident I believe KC. would admit to it instead of chancing the dp. the fact that she doesn't speaks volumes!

 

[circe257]

It's precisely because of the horrific sight that KC may have encountered when she bagged Caylee's body a couple of days after her death that she may have applied the tape at that stage. The lips and tongue can both swell and distort and she may have wanted to cover that terrible image, possibly placing the sticker there as an 'apology' for applying the tape. It's also possible that the eyes may have similarly been covered in tape, especially if they were still open or seeping. There were apparently other pieces of tape found at the disposal site so they may have been used for similar purposes, but had worn off/fallen off.

I understand that most people don't believe that the tape could have been applied postmortem, but it is still a feasible possibility and so I don't see how Dr Perper can reasonably discount it as a fact.

Actually I think Devon makes a good point here about the tape. The fact of the matter is we will probably never know if it was applied before/after. Could she have placed the tape beforehand to keep Caylee quiet? Sure. But a muffled person can still be heard, especially one in a panic as I'm sure a 2 year old finding herself in this position would be. I don't recall specifically if it's ever been mentioned if the tape was also placed over the nose. Duct tape is fairly wide - while a 2 year old face is relatively small, so there had to be some overlap. Was it over the chin area or the nose area. Could it have been placed after in order to minimize fluids or to cover the horror and somehow make it less disturbing, especially with the addition of the heart sticker? Not out of the realm of possibility. Could she have placed it after to make it look like more like a kidnapping? Possibly, but doubtful. A kidnapper would have skipped the heart sticker.

I believe the only way the state could come up with a cause of death would be some type of drug analysis with the hair. If she had been drugging Caylee on a regular basis that would show up. If she only did it once and Caylee died as a result they most likely wouldn't be able to detect it. As far as we know the death certificate has not yet been modified, which means there is only speculation as to homicidal means/cause.

In the whole big scheme of things, I don't think this will deeply harm the state's case as they have an overwhelming amount of other circumstantial evidence. The biggest red flag....KC's actions afterward show complete and utter lack of regard for the whereabouts/well-being of her child that was supposedly missing. This alone is the best argument against an accidental death, even if she panicked - her actions aren't panicked or angst ridden at all. Realistically, they don't even need body to prosecute. At this point the tape and the time/motive of it's placement don't really matter as it relates to the rest of the case.

MOO

 

[OneLostGrl]

What was it I was saying earlier about ridicule and sarcasm..........:frown:

unreal.

 

[cecybeans]

I agree we may never know exactly how Caylee died At this point we could speculate on a variety of ways. It could have been premeditated, either with careful planning or simply by an angry response to an altercation between KC and Cindy. It could have been with chloroform or duct tape or neckbreaking. It could have been unintentional, a violent reaction to a tantrum, medicating Caylee and putting her in the trunk to sleep. It could have been an accident, not necessarily from a pool but even just leaving a crying child in a car in the heat while KC got outside to talk on her cellphone. The particulars are actually rather immaterial.

Any and all of the above are considered Murder 1 in FL with a child under twelve, even felony manslaughter. The only difference is the sentence.

The point is, it doesn't really matter how it happened, whether intentional or accident. KC never admitted it or told anyone. If it was an accident, she never called 911 or reported it. She spent an entire month lying to family and friends about where Caylee was and who she was with, apparently not distraught enough to stop from indulging her every whim. When the situation was reported, she told absurd and elaborate lies to the police and tried to implicate others. She behaved as if she didn't care much for anyone but herself and was openly hostile and uncooperative. She made no real effort to retract her false statements and contribute anything useful to the search for her daughter. These behaviors are undeniable. Every single witness questioned admitted she was a pathological liar. Her own mother is on record with several individuals as openly suspecting her of being a sociopath. We know for a fact she stole money from family and friends with little or no remorse.

When Caylee's body was actually found we could postulate that the duct tape around the mouth was either the cause of death or placed antemortem to affect a kidnapping story. Either way, KC has been trying to avoid responsibility for the death of her child.

I can suspend my disbelief in other cases but we have had reams of proof already that, whether this was accidental or not, the premeditated way in which KC covered up the death and the way she showed no respect for others' property or belongings, indicates she has exhibited repeated criminal behavior and is responsible for this.

The undebatable and overwhelming preponderance of the circumstantial evidence points to a person who had a repeated and an escalating willful and wanton disregard for what belonged to others, up to and including life itself, and that who is unwilling to accept responsibility for any of her actions. Nobody else in this scenario even comes close to such a description, much less have equal motive or opportunity. For that, I can relax the inclination of "innocent until proven guilty". After carefully considering the evidence already available, I can can with a clear conscience postulate she and only she is guilty of what happened to little Caylee.

The fact that she and her team are ready to pin it on even more innocent bystanders to help her once again escape the consequences of her actions is what probably makes most of us so disgusted and upset. The additional fact that her team feels they are the only entities who should profit from this tragedy - particularly when their strategy and actions have ultimately cost the state as well - is adding insult to injury.

In other cases, it may be prudent to withhold judgement until all the facts are in. But this entire family has done nothing but obfuscate the truth or outright lie after the fact. At some point it's just common sense to say that no real evidence exists for a reasonable alternative explanation. Deconstructing tiny facts and parsing particulars doesn't change the big picture. It's Murder One, accident or not, and no other explanation than KC did it is anywhere near feasible.

 

[Sunshine52]

I think this is a big one. It may seem simple. But I am afraid Jurors will see a young pretty mother and think she is not capable of such a thing and if she did do it then it must have been an accident.

My husband thinks it is wrong to kill KC - however the other day a man plead guilty to being angry and shaking his baby who later died and my husband immediately said he should get the DP.

How can he think this? In his mind KC seems like an innocent young girl who made a huge mistake.

She's not a mother anymore.

 

[Sunshine52]

"Based upon additional information that has become available since the waiver of intent to seek the penalty of death filed on December 5, 2008, sufficient aggravating circumstances exist to justify the imposition of the Death Penalty," the filed letter states.

The legal aggravating circumstances that would apply in this case would be that the murder was cruel and atrocious and cold, calculated and premeditated.


I think these are broad terms painted with a broad brush so as not to give away specific evidence that the state has that may be so concrete...it may be a slam dunk.

 

[MAMABEAR]

I think this is a big one. It may seem simple. But I am afraid Jurors will see a young pretty mother and think she is not capable of such a thing and if she did do it then it must have been an accident.

My husband thinks it is wrong to kill KC - however the other day a man plead guilty to being angry and shaking his baby who later died and my husband immediately said he should get the DP.

How can he think this? In his mind KC seems like an innocent young girl who made a huge mistake.

What age is your husband? Does he know all the facts? Trying to figure here. My son is 37yo----has an 11yo daughter and 7 son----married. Can't thin k of anythang else----but he got sick at his stomach when he was here and HLN was on. He started watchin TV and I started watching him. I could see him gittin sick. At one point he stood and hollered, "Kill that B!tch". His wife and I had to calm him down.

 

[MAMABEAR]

I agree we may never know exactly how Caylee died At this point we could speculate on a variety of ways. It could have been premeditated, either with careful planning or simply by an angry response to an altercation between KC and Cindy. It could have been with chloroform or duct tape or neckbreaking. It could have been unintentional, a violent reaction to a tantrum, medicating Caylee and putting her in the trunk to sleep. It could have been an accident, not necessarily from a pool but even just leaving a crying child in a car in the heat while KC got outside to talk on her cellphone. The particulars are actually rather immaterial.

Any and all of the above are considered Murder 1 in FL with a child under twelve, even felony manslaughter. The only difference is the sentence.

The point is, it doesn't really matter how it happened, whether intentional or accident. KC never admitted it or told anyone. If it was an accident, she never called 911 or reported it. She spent an entire month lying to family and friends about where Caylee was and who she was with, apparently not distraught enough to stop from indulging her every whim. When the situation was reported, she told absurd and elaborate lies to the police and tried to implicate others. She behaved as if she didn't care much for anyone but herself and was openly hostile and uncooperative. She made no real effort to retract her false statements and contribute anything useful to the search for her daughter. These behaviors are undeniable. Every single witness questioned admitted she was a pathological liar. Her own mother is on record with several individuals as openly suspecting her of being a sociopath. We know for a fact she stole money from family and friends with little or no remorse.

When Caylee's body was actually found we could postulate that the duct tape around the mouth was either the cause of death or placed antemortem to affect a kidnapping story. Either way, KC has been trying to avoid responsibility for the death of her child.

I can suspend my disbelief in other cases but we have had reams of proof already that, whether this was accidental or not, the premeditated way in which KC covered up the death and the way she showed no respect for others' property or belongings, indicates she has exhibited repeated criminal behavior and is responsible for this.

The undebatable and overwhelming preponderance of the circumstantial evidence points to a person who had a repeated and an escalating willful and wanton disregard for what belonged to others, up to and including life itself, and that who is unwilling to accept responsibility for any of her actions. Nobody else in this scenario even comes close to such a description, much less have equal motive or opportunity. For that, I can relax the inclination of "innocent until proven guilty". After carefully considering the evidence already available, I can can with a clear conscience postulate she and only she is guilty of what happened to little Caylee.

The fact that she and her team are ready to pin it on even more innocent bystanders to help her once again escape the consequences of her actions is what probably makes most of us so disgusted and upset. The additional fact that her team feels they are the only entities who should profit from this tragedy - particularly when their strategy and actions have ultimately cost the state as well - is adding insult to injury.

In other cases, it may be prudent to withhold judgement until all the facts are in. But this entire family has done nothing but obfuscate the truth or outright lie after the fact. At some point it's just common sense to say that no real evidence exists for a reasonable alternative explanation. Deconstructing tiny facts and parsing particulars doesn't change the big picture. It's Murder One, accident or not, and no other explanation than KC did it is anywhere near feasible.

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:
You go gurl!!!!

 

[Devon]

I agree we may never know exactly how Caylee died At this point we could speculate on a variety of ways. It could have been premeditated, either with careful planning or simply by an angry response to an altercation between KC and Cindy. It could have been with chloroform or duct tape or neckbreaking. It could have been unintentional, a violent reaction to a tantrum, medicating Caylee and putting her in the trunk to sleep. It could have been an accident, not necessarily from a pool but even just leaving a crying child in a car in the heat while KC got outside to talk on her cellphone. The particulars are actually rather immaterial.

Any and all of the above are considered Murder 1 in FL with a child under twelve, even felony manslaughter. The only difference is the sentence.

The point is, it doesn't really matter how it happened, whether intentional or accident. KC never admitted it or told anyone. If it was an accident, she never called 911 or reported it. She spent an entire month lying to family and friends about where Caylee was and who she was with, apparently not distraught enough to stop from indulging her every whim. When the situation was reported, she told absurd and elaborate lies to the police and tried to implicate others. She behaved as if she didn't care much for anyone but herself and was openly hostile and uncooperative. She made no real effort to retract her false statements and contribute anything useful to the search for her daughter. These behaviors are undeniable. Every single witness questioned admitted she was a pathological liar. Her own mother is on record with several individuals as openly suspecting her of being a sociopath. We know for a fact she stole money from family and friends with little or no remorse.

When Caylee's body was actually found we could postulate that the duct tape around the mouth was either the cause of death or placed antemortem to affect a kidnapping story. Either way, KC has been trying to avoid responsibility for the death of her child.

I can suspend my disbelief in other cases but we have had reams of proof already that, whether this was accidental or not, the premeditated way in which KC covered up the death and the way she showed no respect for others' property or belongings, indicates she has exhibited repeated criminal behavior and is responsible for this.

The undebatable and overwhelming preponderance of the circumstantial evidence points to a person who had a repeated and an escalating willful and wanton disregard for what belonged to others, up to and including life itself, and that who is unwilling to accept responsibility for any of her actions. Nobody else in this scenario even comes close to such a description, much less have equal motive or opportunity. For that, I can relax the inclination of "innocent until proven guilty". After carefully considering the evidence already available, I can can with a clear conscience postulate she and only she is guilty of what happened to little Caylee.

The fact that she and her team are ready to pin it on even more innocent bystanders to help her once again escape the consequences of her actions is what probably makes most of us so disgusted and upset. The additional fact that her team feels they are the only entities who should profit from this tragedy - particularly when their strategy and actions have ultimately cost the state as well - is adding insult to injury.

In other cases, it may be prudent to withhold judgement until all the facts are in. But this entire family has done nothing but obfuscate the truth or outright lie after the fact. At some point it's just common sense to say that no real evidence exists for a reasonable alternative explanation. Deconstructing tiny facts and parsing particulars doesn't change the big picture. It's Murder One, accident or not, and no other explanation than KC did it is anywhere near feasible.

Bolded by me

Could you point me to the section of the FL statutes that states that manslaughter is Murder One please, because I've just reread them for a third time to check your information and can't find any such reference. There is no crime of 'felony manslaughter' listed, but there is aggravated manslaughter (where the victim is under 18) which is a felony of the first degree, not murder of the first degree.

Also, how can an accident be classed as Murder One? This is classified as the killing of a human being from a premeditated design, or whilst perpetrating certain specific felonies including aggravated child abuse, neither of which would be an accident.

 

[cecybeans]

Bolded by me

Could you point me to the section of the FL statutes that states that manslaughter is Murder One please, because I've just reread them for a third time to check your information and can't find any such reference. There is no crime of 'felony manslaughter' listed, but there is aggravated manslaughter (where the victim is under 18) which is a felony of the first degree, not murder of the first degree.

Also, how can an accident be classed as Murder One? This is classified as the killing of a human being from a premeditated design, or whilst perpetrating certain specific felonies including aggravated child abuse, neither of which would be an accident.

I'm sure the attorneys can elucidate this better, but it's been my understanding from legal friends in FL that felony death for a child under the age of 12 involving aggravated child abuse is interpreted as Murder one and can carry a death penalty as well.

Accidental death at this point, from anything other than aggravated child abuse might be hard to sell to any jury. I would think that, in the absence of COD, the jury is less likely to believe a sudden reversal to an accidental death story from a defendant that has all along staunchly insisted someone else kidnapped her child from whom she was "protecting her family". The elaborate cover up and lies she has told make her less than credible. Which is a shame for her, because the jury will have to depend on the other circumstantial evidence of her actions and behavior to see if such a story would be supported or would simply match the kind of person who would be involved in an accident with a child without every bothering to seek professional assistance or help - that alone would indicate negligence in the mind of a reasonable person. Children die every year from accidents and carelessness - that is understandable and sad - what is not understandable is that a mother could feel so little remorse from an accident causing death that her first thought would be to cover up the incident for her own well being and not to completely determine the child had any hope for life by consulting a professional.

To me, if a mother has discovered an accident in which a two-year old is clearly dead, and has no interest in even the heroics of calling paramedics, she either doesn't care or was so neglectful that the child has been dead for some time. I'd think the SA has enough other circumstantial evidence to eliminate this as a reasonable alternative. JMO-JMO

 

[TxMother67]

I agree we may never know exactly how Caylee died At this point we could speculate on a variety of ways. It could have been premeditated, either with careful planning or simply by an angry response to an altercation between KC and Cindy. It could have been with chloroform or duct tape or neckbreaking. It could have been unintentional, a violent reaction to a tantrum, medicating Caylee and putting her in the trunk to sleep. It could have been an accident, not necessarily from a pool but even just leaving a crying child in a car in the heat while KC got outside to talk on her cellphone. The particulars are actually rather immaterial.

Any and all of the above are considered Murder 1 in FL with a child under twelve, even felony manslaughter. The only difference is the sentence.

The point is, it doesn't really matter how it happened, whether intentional or accident. KC never admitted it or told anyone. If it was an accident, she never called 911 or reported it. She spent an entire month lying to family and friends about where Caylee was and who she was with, apparently not distraught enough to stop from indulging her every whim. When the situation was reported, she told absurd and elaborate lies to the police and tried to implicate others. She behaved as if she didn't care much for anyone but herself and was openly hostile and uncooperative. She made no real effort to retract her false statements and contribute anything useful to the search for her daughter. These behaviors are undeniable. Every single witness questioned admitted she was a pathological liar. Her own mother is on record with several individuals as openly suspecting her of being a sociopath. We know for a fact she stole money from family and friends with little or no remorse.

When Caylee's body was actually found we could postulate that the duct tape around the mouth was either the cause of death or placed antemortem to affect a kidnapping story. Either way, KC has been trying to avoid responsibility for the death of her child.

I can suspend my disbelief in other cases but we have had reams of proof already that, whether this was accidental or not, the premeditated way in which KC covered up the death and the way she showed no respect for others' property or belongings, indicates she has exhibited repeated criminal behavior and is responsible for this.

The undebatable and overwhelming preponderance of the circumstantial evidence points to a person who had a repeated and an escalating willful and wanton disregard for what belonged to others, up to and including life itself, and that who is unwilling to accept responsibility for any of her actions. Nobody else in this scenario even comes close to such a description, much less have equal motive or opportunity. For that, I can relax the inclination of "innocent until proven guilty". After carefully considering the evidence already available, I can can with a clear conscience postulate she and only she is guilty of what happened to little Caylee.

The fact that she and her team are ready to pin it on even more innocent bystanders to help her once again escape the consequences of her actions is what probably makes most of us so disgusted and upset. The additional fact that her team feels they are the only entities who should profit from this tragedy - particularly when their strategy and actions have ultimately cost the state as well - is adding insult to injury.

In other cases, it may be prudent to withhold judgement until all the facts are in. But this entire family has done nothing but obfuscate the truth or outright lie after the fact. At some point it's just common sense to say that no real evidence exists for a reasonable alternative explanation. Deconstructing tiny facts and parsing particulars doesn't change the big picture. It's Murder One, accident or not, and no other explanation than KC did it is anywhere near feasible.

:clap::clap: Thank you for this post! :blowkiss:

 

[ThoughtElf]

I agree we may never know exactly how Caylee died At this point we could speculate on a variety of ways. It could have been premeditated, either with careful planning or simply by an angry response to an altercation between KC and Cindy. It could have been with chloroform or duct tape or neckbreaking. It could have been unintentional, a violent reaction to a tantrum, medicating Caylee and putting her in the trunk to sleep. It could have been an accident, not necessarily from a pool but even just leaving a crying child in a car in the heat while KC got outside to talk on her cellphone. The particulars are actually rather immaterial.

Any and all of the above are considered Murder 1 in FL with a child under twelve, even felony manslaughter. The only difference is the sentence.

The point is, it doesn't really matter how it happened, whether intentional or accident. KC never admitted it or told anyone. If it was an accident, she never called 911 or reported it. She spent an entire month lying to family and friends about where Caylee was and who she was with, apparently not distraught enough to stop from indulging her every whim. When the situation was reported, she told absurd and elaborate lies to the police and tried to implicate others. She behaved as if she didn't care much for anyone but herself and was openly hostile and uncooperative. She made no real effort to retract her false statements and contribute anything useful to the search for her daughter. These behaviors are undeniable. Every single witness questioned admitted she was a pathological liar. Her own mother is on record with several individuals as openly suspecting her of being a sociopath. We know for a fact she stole money from family and friends with little or no remorse.

When Caylee's body was actually found we could postulate that the duct tape around the mouth was either the cause of death or placed antemortem to affect a kidnapping story. Either way, KC has been trying to avoid responsibility for the death of her child.

I can suspend my disbelief in other cases but we have had reams of proof already that, whether this was accidental or not, the premeditated way in which KC covered up the death and the way she showed no respect for others' property or belongings, indicates she has exhibited repeated criminal behavior and is responsible for this.

The undebatable and overwhelming preponderance of the circumstantial evidence points to a person who had a repeated and an escalating willful and wanton disregard for what belonged to others, up to and including life itself, and that who is unwilling to accept responsibility for any of her actions. Nobody else in this scenario even comes close to such a description, much less have equal motive or opportunity. For that, I can relax the inclination of "innocent until proven guilty". After carefully considering the evidence already available, I can can with a clear conscience postulate she and only she is guilty of what happened to little Caylee.

The fact that she and her team are ready to pin it on even more innocent bystanders to help her once again escape the consequences of her actions is what probably makes most of us so disgusted and upset. The additional fact that her team feels they are the only entities who should profit from this tragedy - particularly when their strategy and actions have ultimately cost the state as well - is adding insult to injury.

In other cases, it may be prudent to withhold judgement until all the facts are in. But this entire family has done nothing but obfuscate the truth or outright lie after the fact. At some point it's just common sense to say that no real evidence exists for a reasonable alternative explanation. Deconstructing tiny facts and parsing particulars doesn't change the big picture. It's Murder One, accident or not, and no other explanation than KC did it is anywhere near feasible.

What an eloquent and succinct summation of this case.

TY for putting into words what I've been entirely unable to.

 

[Paintr]

I agree we may never know exactly how Caylee died At this point we could speculate on a variety of ways. It could have been premeditated, either with careful planning or simply by an angry response to an altercation between KC and Cindy. It could have been with chloroform or duct tape or neckbreaking. It could have been unintentional, a violent reaction to a tantrum, medicating Caylee and putting her in the trunk to sleep. It could have been an accident, not necessarily from a pool but even just leaving a crying child in a car in the heat while KC got outside to talk on her cellphone. The particulars are actually rather immaterial.

Any and all of the above are considered Murder 1 in FL with a child under twelve, even felony manslaughter. The only difference is the sentence.

The point is, it doesn't really matter how it happened, whether intentional or accident. KC never admitted it or told anyone. If it was an accident, she never called 911 or reported it. She spent an entire month lying to family and friends about where Caylee was and who she was with, apparently not distraught enough to stop from indulging her every whim. When the situation was reported, she told absurd and elaborate lies to the police and tried to implicate others. She behaved as if she didn't care much for anyone but herself and was openly hostile and uncooperative. She made no real effort to retract her false statements and contribute anything useful to the search for her daughter. These behaviors are undeniable. Every single witness questioned admitted she was a pathological liar. Her own mother is on record with several individuals as openly suspecting her of being a sociopath. We know for a fact she stole money from family and friends with little or no remorse.

When Caylee's body was actually found we could postulate that the duct tape around the mouth was either the cause of death or placed antemortem to affect a kidnapping story. Either way, KC has been trying to avoid responsibility for the death of her child.

I can suspend my disbelief in other cases but we have had reams of proof already that, whether this was accidental or not, the premeditated way in which KC covered up the death and the way she showed no respect for others' property or belongings, indicates she has exhibited repeated criminal behavior and is responsible for this.

The undebatable and overwhelming preponderance of the circumstantial evidence points to a person who had a repeated and an escalating willful and wanton disregard for what belonged to others, up to and including life itself, and that who is unwilling to accept responsibility for any of her actions. Nobody else in this scenario even comes close to such a description, much less have equal motive or opportunity. For that, I can relax the inclination of "innocent until proven guilty". After carefully considering the evidence already available, I can can with a clear conscience postulate she and only she is guilty of what happened to little Caylee.

The fact that she and her team are ready to pin it on even more innocent bystanders to help her once again escape the consequences of her actions is what probably makes most of us so disgusted and upset. The additional fact that her team feels they are the only entities who should profit from this tragedy - particularly when their strategy and actions have ultimately cost the state as well - is adding insult to injury.

In other cases, it may be prudent to withhold judgement until all the facts are in. But this entire family has done nothing but obfuscate the truth or outright lie after the fact. At some point it's just common sense to say that no real evidence exists for a reasonable alternative explanation. Deconstructing tiny facts and parsing particulars doesn't change the big picture. It's Murder One, accident or not, and no other explanation than KC did it is anywhere near feasible.

There is no way on this board to indicate a standing ovation but there should be a button created just for this post. I couldn't snip for length because it deserved to be repeated as is.

Eloquent, well thought out, articulate, logical, and factual. I hope the prosecution annexes it for their summation in court. :clap: :clap::clap:

 

[sunflowerchick]

Ok so someone correct me if I am wrong, but the state has the burden of proof right?

So despite what we all know to be true, I think there may be some holes for the prosecution unless they have more evidence than what we are aware of. For example, they have no cause of death unless they found something with the body.

Now here is the problem, you could always get that one juror who says, "All they can prove here is that KC was a lousy and abusive mother who partied alot and liked men. Despite that and despite her lies that doesn't mean she killed her daughter." AND yes, that one juror could be out there. After all there are still people giving her commissary money for crying out loud.

That one juror is everyone's worst nightmare.

 

[Devon]

I'm sure the attorneys can elucidate this better, but it's been my understanding from legal friends in FL that felony death for a child under the age of 12 involving aggravated child abuse is interpreted as Murder one and can carry a death penalty as well.

Accidental death at this point, from anything other than aggravated child abuse might be hard to sell to any jury. I would think that, in the absence of COD, the jury is less likely to believe a sudden reversal to an accidental death story from a defendant that has all along staunchly insisted someone else kidnapped her child from whom she was "protecting her family". The elaborate cover up and lies she has told make her less than credible. Which is a shame for her, because the jury will have to depend on the other circumstantial evidence of her actions and behavior to see if such a story would be supported or would simply match the kind of person who would be involved in an accident with a child without every bothering to seek professional assistance or help - that alone would indicate negligence in the mind of a reasonable person. Children die every year from accidents and carelessness - that is understandable and sad - what is not understandable is that a mother could feel so little remorse from an accident causing death that her first thought would be to cover up the incident for her own well being and not to completely determine the child had any hope for life by consulting a professional.

To me, if a mother has discovered an accident in which a two-year old is clearly dead, and has no interest in even the heroics of calling paramedics, she either doesn't care or was so neglectful that the child has been dead for some time. I'd think the SA has enough other circumstantial evidence to eliminate this as a reasonable alternative. JMO-JMO

Yes, I realise that a death caused during the perpetration of aggravated child abuse is felony murder in FL and can also lead to the death penalty, which is what I stated above, but your post suggested that 'felony manslaughter' or accident would also be Murder One.

I also could not agree more that KC's actions following Caylee's death have been despicable. She is a thief, a liar and a coward, who would rather prolong her parents' suffering, sit back whilst others are implicated, and send LE and others on wild goose chases, than take any responsibility for what happened - whatever it was. But I believe that, since she is a liar and a coward she is just as likely to behave this way if Caylee died as the result of some negligence on her part. Her whole life for the past few years appears to be one big lie, so how likely is it that she would suddenly grow a backbone when faced with the worst situation one could imagine?

I agree that it's hard to comprehend her apparent lack of remorse and feeling, and her desire for self-preservation certainly appears to trump any feelings she had for Caylee - which I'm sure she did. If she didn't actually intentionally kill Caylee then her lies and cowardice may take her to her grave. If that's the case, I hope she finds her backbone soon. If it was intentional, she deserves all that's coming to her.