Dogs

[jjenny]

He checks out a book on wolves, and the "Friday the 13th" movie. He sees Amber, says, check this out, let's go skip school. She goes, and Amber ends up in Pala, dead.
He returns the book, and the movie.

Who knew what Amber loved?

A girl who had perfect attendance would skip school, presumably with a man she didn't know, so she can read a library book? How far fetched is this?

 

[sarx]

The dogs in question are cross trained is what they say. Meaning they can find both live and dead.

The oldest reported trail they ran was 32 or 33 days old and it was not even a to body confirmation so verifying the info is very hard. We have trained on trails 3 to 4 weeks old, this I can believe (though the oldest find recorded in a real search was 13 days). 1 month to 6 months is a big difference though.

Yes, trail jumping/car trailing does work, but there is less scent (for obvious reasons) so the older the trail the less likelihood for success. In our area with our conditions we have not had much luck over 5 days on a car trail, ran it for awhile then lost it. A 5 day old trail through the woods would be a breeze.

 

[sarx]

But those weren't cadaver dogs. They were supposedly following a scent of a live person months after the fact, as far as I understand it.
I mean, are dogs really able to do something like that?

If you're talking a live person, no, not 6 months later, I don't believe they can, never heard of or seen anything close. And, I'm betting the reason they had to ship the dogs in all the way across the country is there was nobody here in this state that would put there on name on it and tell them it could be done.

 

[jjenny]

The dogs in question are cross trained is what they say. Meaning they can find both live and dead.

The oldest reported trail they ran was 32 or 33 days old and it was not even a to body confirmation so verifying the info is very hard. We have trained on trails 3 to 4 weeks old, this I can believe (though the oldest find recorded in a real search was 13 days). 1 month to 6 months is a big difference though.

Yes, trail jumping/car trailing does work, but there is less scent (for obvious reasons) so the older the trail the less likelihood for success. In our area with our conditions we have not had much luck over 5 days on a car trail, ran it for awhile then lost it. A 5 day old trail through the woods would be a breeze.

Well I would think the dead body wasn't at the library at any time point. So if they allegedly followed the girl to the library, we'd have to believe these dogs could follow a scent of a live person months after the fact.

 

[sarx]

Yes we would jjenny. This was bugging me so bad last night I was making calls to other handlers all over California, Washington and Oregon about it. We just couldn't come up with a scenario where it was plausible.

 

[JustToSeeYouSmile]

If you're talking a live person, no, not 6 months later, I don't believe they can, never heard of or seen anything close. And, I'm betting the reason they had to ship the dogs in all the way across the country is there was nobody here in this state that would put there on name on it and tell them it could be done.

I'm betting you are completely correct on that. Some handlers will volunteer their dogs for particular cases that get neglected for lack of a better expression, by certain LE depts. That the dogs were 'paid for by donations' does not necessarily mean anything.

 

[JustToSeeYouSmile]

LOL, FEMA, who's that, they never show up in our neck of the woods!? Ok kidding, but we don't interact with them much except for disaster cases like earthquakes and floods. OES certs for the state as well as CARDA certs have always been good with them in the past.

HRD dogs (for those of you that don't know, it stands for human remains detection, in case anyone was wondering!) picking up something that "young" I get, that's just a new scent as far as they're concerned, but quite the opposite for a trailing dog.

So... under that theory, if we went that they were using their trailing techniques, but were cued in on a cadaver smell then she what was killed up by the school and transported at a later time?

Well....I don't know what it means. It seems to me that they followed a live scent initially and then a dead scent. But I still feel there could be reasons for this. It would be good to know how dead the 'dead' scent was, because the dogs may have been further cross trained in degrees. An autopsy report might help clear this up. So they could have been confused, but still accurate. Or the scent item used could have confused them. Does that make any sense?

 

[JustToSeeYouSmile]

So for my own edification, could you tell me how a dog would pick up a scent at a freeway ramp from someone inside a car, say with the windows rolled up and AC on, even a fresh trail? If a car is recycling the air inside the vehicle, would enough exit the vehicle for a dog to trail, especially since there are so many other vehicle moving the spore around? Has this been done successfully?

An air dog would most likely NOT be able to pick up a scent from a vehicle as described, unless there was a distinctive and already discernable scent coming from the vehicle. But a good tracking dog could pick up a scent in one place, maintain the scent while being transported to another, and on and on as long as the scent article keeps reminding them. An HRD dog can do this as well.

 

[jjenny]

An air dog would most likely NOT be able to pick up a scent from a vehicle as described, unless there was a distinctive and already discernable scent coming from the vehicle. But a good tracking dog could pick up a scent in one place, maintain the scent while being transported to another, and on and on as long as the scent article keeps reminding them. An HRD dog can do this as well.

Six months after the fact?

 

[JustToSeeYouSmile]

Maybe it's because we have a whole lotta people training and working dogs but we tend to stay more specialized in part because we have the luxury and in part because it allows us to know what we're working with (live, deceased, etc) and in part because in our court system we have a hard enough time getting anything admitted, if dogs worked multiple disciplines everything would get thrown out with the "well how do you know he was alive at that time if you're dog can trail both live and dead". It also can take forever to get through the cert processes and jump through all the political hoops, I can't imagine torturing myself that way!

edit to add- We also have a lot of great dogs that would absolutely stink at other disciplines and I would hate to have them not in the field because they had to be cross trained and couldn't cut it.

That's actually why we train trailing first. Anybody who doesn't make that cut, doesn't go any farther. From there, we specialize. Interesting how different everyone's techniques are. Oh and by the way- I agree entirely about jumping through all the hoops. Perhaps thats one of the pluses and minuses of small vs larger trainers. We've had to turn down a lot of dogs because we know we can't keep up.

 

[JustToSeeYouSmile]

Six months after the fact?

Yes, an HRD dog (or a cross trained tracking/HRD dog) could pick up a scent 6 months after the fact, if led to a specific spot, and then another specific spot etc. They would alert to that.

 

[jjenny]

Yes, an HRD dog (or a cross trained tracking/HRD dog) could pick up a scent 6 months after the fact, if led to a specific spot, and then another specific spot etc. They would alert to that.

And is that documented in any way that the dog was actually accurate that much later?
What we have here is the dogs supposedly tracked her to several places on the PALA reservations. As far as I understand it, there is no actual evidence she was ever (dead or alive) at any of these places.
So it's a good story for Nancy Grace "dogs tracked her but police didn't follow up" but in reality we have no idea if she was anywhere the dogs supposedly said she was.
The FBI dogs in November couldn't reproduce what these dogs supposedly found in August. Of course that's even later.
"In an interview a month ago, Lt. Bob Benton said due diligence was observed. Detectives went to Pala and interviewed many people, most of who were aware of Amber’s disappearance but none of whom recalled ever having seen her."
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/mar/08/search-dogs-came-close-seeking-amber-last-year/

 

[JustToSeeYouSmile]

Note SoCal, that what we were saying is more or less how you would run that search, I for one still don't buy that they were able to pick up a six month old trail and follow it 20 miles, much less a six month old car trail.
Just wanted to make clear the difference!

sarx, thank you for pointing out the clarification of running a search vs the car issue.

I'm not sure I completely agree about the car trail though. It seems like there could be other variables out there. For example, the car used in transport could have traveled the same route every day for 6 months, KWIM? When training here, we have to constantly variate the location of searches because the dogs will get used to the territory as opposed to the scent. That's not what we want. But sometimes, it is. For example, a person follows the same route everyday for 15 yrs. Familiarity can be useful with dogs as well.

 

[JustToSeeYouSmile]

And is that documented in any way that the dog was actually accurate that much later?
What we have here is the dogs supposedly tracked her to several places on the PALA reservations. As far as I understand it, there is no actual evidence she was ever (dead or alive) at any of these places.
So it's a good story for Nancy Grace "dogs tracked her but police didn't follow up" but in reality we have no idea if she was anywhere the dogs supposedly said she was.
The FBI dogs in November couldn't reproduce what these dogs supposedly found in August. Of course that's even later.
"In an interview a month ago, Lt. Bob Benton said due diligence was observed. Detectives went to Pala and interviewed many people, most of who were aware of Amber’s disappearance but none of whom recalled ever having seen her."
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/mar/08/search-dogs-came-close-seeking-amber-last-year/

I don't know that it is documented anywhere that that specific dog(s) tracked her. I don't know anything about the dogs/company used. That's probably a question for the company that owns the dogs. I'm just saying that a live scent dog can be transported from one place to another, reminded of the scent they're looking for, and alert on it again. Ditto on HRD dogs.

 

[jjenny]

I don't know that it is documented anywhere that that specific dog(s) tracked her. I don't know anything about the dogs/company used. That's probably a question for the company that owns the dogs. I'm just saying that a live scent dog can be transported from one place to another, reminded of the scent they're looking for, and alert on it again. Ditto on HRD dogs.

I know dog can be transported. But we are talking 6 months after the fact. In any case, has the dog ever been found to be accurate that much later?

 

[JustToSeeYouSmile]

Yes we would jjenny. This was bugging me so bad last night I was making calls to other handlers all over California, Washington and Oregon about it. We just couldn't come up with a scenario where it was plausible.

I think it's plausible if she was alive or the person that allegedly took her had a live scent with him/her for all of that time of some type. I know it's a stretch, but stranger things have happened.

 

[JustToSeeYouSmile]

I know dog can be transported. But we are talking 6 months after the fact. In any case, has the dog ever been found to be accurate that much later?

I don't know anything about the dogs specifically in question. Certain cross trained dogs have been known to hit on scent trails much later than 6 months after the fact. It depends on what has disrupted the scent, and whether or not they are well-trained to know what they are following. If you smush peanut butter into the ridges of your car tires, and then drive down a road, and then take out your peanut-butter-loving dog to follow the trail...they'll do it. And if you do that every day, and then you do that with different tires....well, you can teach them to discern tire scent. It just depends what has disrupted the scent trail in the interim.

It seems possible to me that if family/LE/whoever thought either she or her abductor could have traveled a similar route after the fact...that it's plausible.

 

[Lipin One]

And is that documented in any way that the dog was actually accurate that much later?
What we have here is the dogs supposedly tracked her to several places on the PALA reservations. As far as I understand it, there is no actual evidence she was ever (dead or alive) at any of these places.
So it's a good story for Nancy Grace "dogs tracked her but police didn't follow up" but in reality we have no idea if she was anywhere the dogs supposedly said she was.
The FBI dogs in November couldn't reproduce what these dogs supposedly found in August. Of course that's even later.
"In an interview a month ago, Lt. Bob Benton said due diligence was observed. Detectives went to Pala and interviewed many people, most of who were aware of Amber’s disappearance but none of whom recalled ever having seen her."
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/mar/08/search-dogs-came-close-seeking-amber-last-year/

Let's imagine for a moment that Amber was murdered the same day she was kidnapped.

Her body dumped over at the place it rests now.

Wouldn't the wind disperse the body smell in the area? Even after months of being there? Even after changing weather conditions?

IF that was true, how long would the scent remain in the air for the dogs to smell?

Just a thought.

 

[sarx]

HRD dogs can absolutely smell things months and years later (like hundreds of years if specially trained). Trailing dogs following LIVE scent, no way, not 6 months later.

 

[JustToSeeYouSmile]

Let's imagine for a moment that Amber was murdered the same day she was kidnapped.

Her body dumped over at the place it rests now.

Wouldn't the wind disperse the body smell in the area? Even after months of being there? Even after changing weather conditions?

IF that was true, how long would the scent remain in the air for the dogs to smell?

Just a thought.

That would not be an air dog. That would be an HRD dog. The scent in that situation is not 'in the air' so to speak.' It is on the ground. And depending upon the type of HRD dog used, it is entirely possible that they would alert to decomp, even if much older than 6 months. As sarx said- HRD dogs can and have alerted on very old remains.