Elizabeth Johnson's Court Hearings & Charges

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kwatmac said:
Those are two very different issues - she has been found incompetent to stand trial - therefore she is unable to help her attorney properly represent her. There are two standards that are used across the US - Dusky standard and ...i am totally blanking on the other (will have to dust off my textbook!). Each state decides which standard they will employ.

What has happened is not an assessment of competency at the time of the crime. That is a whole other can of worms!

There doesn't have to be an established past in order to declare this, it is based on an psychologist's assessment of her mindset right now.

Also - it is actually very hard to feign incompetency! I finished my MA in Forensic Psychology last summer and we had lots of classes for forensic assessment. Many of the psychometric tools that are used in the court system have questions/entire sections that are included to catch feigning (faking psychological issues), and also forensic psychologists who complete these types of assessments are specifically trained to look for that kind of thing. One that can be used within the court system is the MMPI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Multiphasic_Personality_Inventory) - check out the section marked 'validity scales' :) I took an enitre class on the MMPI and one of our first assignments was to take the MMPI, however our professor gave us a 'personality or issue' that we had to answer the questions as if we had that personality or issue - it was very intersting to see that the validity scales catch people very easily!
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You put so eloquently into words what I was thinking, thank you! I have been thinking that this time in jail, being treated or not for her mental issues, has not been good for her mental state. That she has deteriorated sitting in there. Being isolated in your cell for 23 hours a day would probably affect a mentally healthy person's mind in a negative way. I have no doubt that she was in a different state of mind back in December. She may have been exhibiting signs of her mental illness, but I believe her illness is a dynamic state. It's not static...she's not in the same state of mind she was, but her mind has deteriorated during these past 5 months.

I pray for Gabriel and his family as always. This must be so difficult. I pray that obtaining treatment for her illness will lead us to the truth, or provide more insight into what happened in SA.

I was much too angry to post anything when I first read the news today. After a long workout at the gym, I've decided to keep looking on the bright side. To keep looking for that little light that Gabriel is shining for us. His mother needs help. She needs this kind of help specifically. As much as I want her charged, and to pay for her crimes against LM and Gabriel, I want her treated. To charge her and punish her will not bring answers, not when she is not competent enough in the eyes of the psychologists who evaluated her to understand anything that is happening right now.
Perhaps when she is returned to competency (and I have total faith she will be), the answers will come.
 
kwatmac said:
....snip/
Also - it is actually very hard to feign incompetency! I finished my MA in Forensic Psychology last summer and we had lots of classes for forensic assessment. Many of the psychometric tools that are used in the court system have questions/entire sections that are included to catch feigning (faking psychological issues), and also forensic psychologists who complete these types of assessments are specifically trained to look for that kind of thing. One that can be used within the court system is the MMPI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Multiphasic_Personality_Inventory) - check out the section marked 'validity scales' :) I took an enitre class on the MMPI and one of our first assignments was to take the MMPI, however our professor gave us a 'personality or issue' that we had to answer the questions as if we had that personality or issue - it was very intersting to see that the validity scales catch people very easily!
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k... thx for the insights first of all... question tho: if a sane person wanted to fake insanity, wouldn't they just look at each question, then answer the opposite or answer anything BUT what they know is right? that's what i would do. why would they want to be honest if they were trying to FAKE it?? or are these tests so good they know if you are answering incorrectly for real or fake? :waitasec:
 
noopy said:
wow. could she FAKE insanity? did she purposely attack those inmates as part of her "insanity" ACT ?

OR she really DID go insane after what she did?

I'd imagine killing your own child is enough to make anyone go insane.... not saying she did, but just saying...
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hmm..... she's faking insanity so she'll be found not guilty and go free but does such a good job that she ends up not competent, eventually not restorable, and committed for life...

Maybe EJ is just as surprised as we are this evening
 
saba said:
hmm..... she's faking insanity so she'll be found not guilty and go free but does such a good job that she ends up not competent, eventually not restorable, and committed for life...

Maybe EJ is just as surprised as we are this evening
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ok, maybe it's real insanity, IDK, but how come she's still competent enough to know not to tell anyone the truth? cuz she'll be in jail for life?

she sure is competent when looking out for herself even when she's been deemed 'incompetent'.
 
kwatmac said:
One that can be used within the court system is the MMPI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Multiphasic_Personality_Inventory) - check out the section marked 'validity scales' :) I took an enitre class on the MMPI and one of our first assignments was to take the MMPI, however our professor gave us a 'personality or issue' that we had to answer the questions as if we had that personality or issue - it was very intersting to see that the validity scales catch people very easily!
Click to expand...

This is very accurate. The MMPI is still a valuable tool and can, indeed, detect whether a person is faking/lying or not. There's four different scales to determine this. What stood out to me was this quote:

"Both (court-appointed) doctors believe she is not competent to stand trial," Alcock said. "They have determined that Elizabeth cannot control her thought process and that she is not able to think in a linear fashion, meaning that she is not able to think logically or make decisions."

This indicates psychosis to me. She will be on a lock-down ward and will be observed 24/7, she will be medicated either willfully or forced I believe. IT's difficult to get truly paranoid people to voluntarily take medication....
 
I wonder what sort of visitations she will be allowed there? Hopefully, when she is medicated and counseled, she will see her family again (thinking about the GF). She needs to keep in contact with all those she cares about and that care about her, IMO. I'm not a mental health professional or anything, but I would think that maintaining those relationships would help her return to reality?
 
Holy carp. She sure seemed able to think logically at that first hearing, when she was asking the judge perfectly sensible questions about the proceedings. She must have deteriorated drastically since then.

Maybe, in her illogical babbling, she will give a few more clues about what happened to Gabriel.
 
DaneBramage said:
This is very accurate. The MMPI is still a valuable tool and can, indeed, detect whether a person is faking/lying or not. There's four different scales to determine this. What stood out to me was this quote:

"Both (court-appointed) doctors believe she is not competent to stand trial," Alcock said. "They have determined that Elizabeth cannot control her thought process and that she is not able to think in a linear fashion, meaning that she is not able to think logically or make decisions."

This indicates psychosis to me. She will be on a lock-down ward and will be observed 24/7, she will be medicated either willfully or forced I believe. IT's difficult to get truly paranoid people to voluntarily take medication....
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Thanks for the post- it really bugged me that there was no diagnosis (that we could see) - I'm relieved to know that this is more than a ditz throws a fit analysis
 
really? hm, I hadn't even considered that this might happen ...

have never heard the term restorable either
 
IT is time for LE to ball up and put the pressure on. THis has gone on long enough.
 
OMG!! Never in my wildest dreams did I expect this. Poor Gabriel... Poor, Poor baby. I just knew this baby would have been found by now, this is not good for Gabriel.
 
danisisa said:
IT is time for LE to ball up and put the pressure on. THis has gone on long enough.
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I wish, but CAN THEY? Our system protects the likes of EJ, not Gabriel... Esp now that she's incompetent, they have to protect her even MORE no?
 
b4e said:
I am heartbroken. Where is Gabriel?!?
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That's the One Million Dollar question we are all asking.

I am going to be Ticked if ALL charges get dropped against her.

(unfortunately, that is a possibility). :(
 
noopy said:
k... thx for the insights first of all... question tho: if a sane person wanted to fake insanity, wouldn't they just look at each question, then answer the opposite or answer anything BUT what they know is right? that's what i would do. why would they want to be honest if they were trying to FAKE it?? or are these tests so good they know if you are answering incorrectly for real or fake? :waitasec:
Click to expand...

They are that good. Speaking specifically about the MMPI, they aren't questions like 'are you crazy?' :) There are questions that ask about whether you hear voices, or whether you believe certain things, however, those questions are the ones in there to trap people and they aren't included in the validity scales. The validity scales are actually made up of the most mundane questions. There are a lot of repeats of themes that are spread out among the almost 600 questions, and it is much easier to answer the questions truthfully because when you are lying, you come across a similar question that you may have answered a certain way before and then you have to think...'hmm, how did I answer that before' and and most people mess up. It is like getting caught in a lie essentially, you have to remember what you have said in your previous lie to continue the ruse, otherwise, the jig is up!
The MMPI is a pretty neat tool that was established and changed over decades of research and it used very frequently in a wide variety of uses. For example, I know in NY state all police officer applicants have to take it and it is used very often as part of job applications for airline pilots!
Also, a neat fact - research has been done to see if whether an attorney can 'coach' their clients to feign psychopathology on assessments, and it has shown that in many cases, even with coaching, people are caught :)
 
I just want to stop in and add a little hope for those who feel this will never lead to justice...I cant give as much detail as I would like because the situation I am telling about is too close to me and other close friends and family to really feel comfortable giving details....


but there is someone I have known most of my life who with her husband molested a child. the woman herself is quite mentally slow and so they sent her to evals to see if she was competant to be charged and to stand trial - and they determined she was plenty with it enough to know what she did was wrong and therefore charged her...but NOT competent to stand trial.

so they sent her to a mental hospital until she WAS competent.

it wasnt for very long, a few months. and as I have known this person for a very long time I was surprised it took so little time and trust me, EJ compared to this person is a brillant rocket scientist.


so dont feel too discouraged, they'll have her out and competant in no time. and who knows, maybe EJ will do the right thing and talk once her head's sorted.
 
I just added some updated articles to the Daily News thread here:
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104311"]2010.06.04 - Today's Current News - June 4 2010[/ame]


Includes an interview on video with Elizabeth's attorney, and some other additional info, significantly:

Superior Court spokesman Vincent Funari said there will be another hearing August 12 to decide the length and conditions of the rehabilitative process, which could take up to nine months.

If after that time, doctors are unable to restore her to competency, a judge must drop charges against her and commit her to state hospital.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/artic...tempe-baby-garbriel-mother.html#ixzz0pugDaeB0

Thanks,
BeanE
 
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