Ethiopian Air ET302, Boeing 737 crashes - 157 souls - 10 March 2019

[watcher9]

Link with a lot of information.

Six Minutes to Disaster: How Ethiopian Air’s Pilots Battled the Boeing 737 Max

 

[PrairieWind]

ETA to my above post. Investigating the crash are:

The Ethiopian Civil Aviation Accident Prevention and Investigation Bureau
Along with an International team consisting of:
The National Transportation Safety Board NTSB (U.S.)
The Federal Aviation Administration (U.S.)
Bureau d'Enquêtes et d'Analyses pour la Sécurité de l'Aviation Civile (France)
The European Union Aviation Safety Agency EASA

Preliminary Crash Report Says Ethiopian Airlines Crew Complied With Procedures

The FAA doesn't investigate crashes. In the US, that is the job of the NTSB and they are the best in the business. The French BAS is very good as well and it appears they are the ones really conducting this investigation. I believe the black boxes went to them.

 

[MsMarple]

The FAA doesn't investigate crashes. In the US, that is the job of the NTSB and they are the best in the business. The French BAS is very good as well and it appears they are the ones really conducting this investigation. I believe the black boxes went to them.

Yes, I should have been clearer: the FAA is involved but not directly investigating. Sorry.

Anyway, here's an interesting article containing some input from other pilots, including a former investigator with the NTSB. They agreed that manually adjusting the trim wheel would have been impossible but they explained that the reason was the plane's excessive speed. Like I said earlier in the thread, the plane's speed hampered the pilots' ability to quickly recover at the low altitude it was flying. The article explains it a little better.

“The thrust was full bore the whole way,” said Roger Cox, a former accident investigator at the National Transportation Safety Board, who flew earlier models of the 737 while working as an airline pilot. “That is extremely curious.”
...
The plane took off at 94 percent of full power, according to the report. That is normal for liftoff, but pilots then typically pull back the power soon afterward. Even though the captain called for setting the speed at 238 knots, or 274 miles per hour, about a minute after takeoff, the engine thrust remained at the same level for the entire short flight, according to the report.
...
While it’s not clear from the report exactly what steps the pilots took, their struggles to keep the plane climbing apparently led them to switch power back on to the trim system. About 30 seconds before they crashed, it was activated by the pilots to slightly raise the nose.

Five seconds later, MCAS engaged again, once more pushing down the nose. At that speed, they couldn’t overcome the dive using their control column alone, according to John Cox and Guzzetti. For reasons that haven’t been explained, they didn’t try to also trim the plane using switches on their control yokes.

The article's a bit long but worth reading:
Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
Please note the pilots interviewed were not assigning blame to the flight crew but rather they pointed out a factor that contributed to the crash, stressing that many factors are involved in air crashes. If you go through the NTSB dockets it's pretty clear that accidents aren't usually caused by a single event.

Also note that I'm not saying the crews' actions caused the crash either; far from it, it's pretty clear that Boeing is at the core. I also believe that there needs to be truth and transparency in the investigation. Most of us fly in these airplanes at one time or another and we deserve that.

Boeing, the FAA, Ethiopian Airlines and the Ethiopian accident investigators all have their point of view but in the end the truth will tell the story of why and how flight 302 crashed. The final report will take about a year.

 

[PrairieWind]

Thanks MsMarple. I'll hopefully have time to read that this evening. Roger Cox was a regular on "Aircrash Investigations" episodes that I used to watch. I like him.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Boeing is temporarily cutting production of its best-selling 737 airliner in the continuing fall-out from crashes in Ethiopia and Indonesia.

Production will drop from 52 planes a month to 42 from mid-April, Boeing has said in a statement.

The decision is a response to a halt in deliveries of the 737 Max - the model involved in the two accidents.

Boeing cuts 737 production after Max crashes

 

[gregjrichards]

Boeing is temporarily cutting production of its best-selling 737 airliner in the continuing fall-out from crashes in Ethiopia and Indonesia.

Production will drop from 52 planes a month to 42 from mid-April, Boeing has said in a statement.

The decision is a response to a halt in deliveries of the 737 Max - the model involved in the two accidents.

Boeing cuts 737 production after Max crashes

It’s a great pity any are being built.

 

[Hatfield]

It’s a great pity any are being built.

Yea Im surprised they even put out that kind of volume. I had no idea so many per month would be needed in the world.

I just wish they would permanently disable this anti stall feature and balance the plane right and let the pilots do their job of flying.

 

[human]

Why would anyone buy this plane!

 

[gregjrichards]

Why would anyone buy this plane!

The orders being built were probably made quite a while ago maybe two years ago or more it is going to be interesting to see what happens in the near to long term future. I don’t think it’s reputation is going to be easily fixed even if and when it is declared safe to fly. For me too many compromises have been made in the design for me to feel safe in it I will never fly on a Max.

 

[gregjrichards]

American Airlines is extending by over a month its cancellations of about 90 daily flights as the troubled 737 Max plane remains grounded by regulators.

American said Sunday it is extending the cancellations through June 5 from the earlier timeframe of April 24.

The airline acknowledged in a statement that the prolonged cancellations could bring disruption for some travelers.

The Boeing-made Max jets have been grounded in the U.S. and elsewhere since mid-March, following two deadly crashes in Ethiopia and Indonesia.

American Airlines extends cancellations to June 5 as 737 Max jets remain | Daily Mail Online

 

[gregjrichards]

The Bloomberg news portal is reporting that Ethiopian Airlines is reconsidering its orders for Boeing 737 MAX jets following the release of a preliminary report into the ET302 crash.

“We may reach the decision: Look, we just had a very tragic accident a few weeks ago, and customers still have the accident in their mind. So it will be a hard sell for us to convince our customers,” Tewolde GebreMariam is quoted to have said.

Ethiopian crash hub: Airline reconsidering Boeing 737 MAX orders | Africanews

I hope they don’t buy the other 25 Max planes.

 

[gregjrichards]

Ethiopian Airlines flight was in trouble after just 12 seconds: sources

https://www.smh.com.au/business/com...-just-12-seconds-sources-20190408-p51bv0.html

 

[JudgeJudi]

A sudden spike in black box data was consistent with a bird or other debris hitting the plane as it was taking off, shearing away a vital airflow sensor, said the four experts and two US officials.

Ethiopian Airlines on Sunday called that scenario "completely speculative".

Ethiopian investigator Amdye Ayalew Fanta said a preliminary report released by Ethiopian investigators did not contain any indications of this.

Boeing said it would not comment on ongoing investigations.

https://www.smh.com.au/business/com...-just-12-seconds-sources-20190408-p51bv0.html

This is simply outrageous behavior on the part of Boeing. It looks and sounds like they'll say anything to shift the blame for the poor design of the aircraft. I hope all the families sue them for every cent they can get.

 

[gregjrichards]

Boeing’s 737 Max: 1960s Design, 1990s Computing Power and Paper Manuals

“Pilots start some new Boeing planes by turning a knob and flipping two switches.

The Boeing 737 Max, the newest passenger jet on the market, works differently. Pilots follow roughly the same seven steps used on the first 737 nearly 52 years ago: Shut off the cabin’s air-conditioning, redirect the air flow, switch on the engine, start the flow of fuel, revert the air flow, turn back on the air conditioning, and turn on a generator.

The 737 Max is a legacy of its past, built on decades-old systems, many that date back to the original version. The strategy, to keep updating the plane rather than starting from scratch, offered competitive advantages. Pilots were comfortable flying it, while airlines didn’t have to invest in costly new training for their pilots and mechanics. For Boeing, it was also faster and cheaper to redesign and recertify than starting anew.”

Boeing’s 737 Max: 1960s Design, 1990s Computing Power and Paper Manuals

 

[gregjrichards]

The Boeing 737 Max crisis is a tragedy that has cost 346 lives. On Tuesday, investors will start to find out what it means for Boeing's bottom line.

Boeing is set to report the number of planes it delivered during the quarter. The company didn't deliver any of its bestselling 737 Max planes in the last two weeks of the quarter, because it halted those deliveries following the global grounding of the 737 Max planes on March 13.

Investors will be waiting to see if Boeing forecasts the costs of the grounding and halt of deliveries. Boeing (BA) doesn't normally give any dollar figures as part of its deliveries report, but this is not a normal time. It is one of the greatest crises in the company's history.

Boeing is scheduled to report first quarter results on April 24, and then meet with shareholders April 29. But Tuesday's report is an early look at the financial costs of its 737 problem.

Boeing is about to reveal just how much the 737 Max crisis hurt its business - CNN

 

[gregjrichards]

Airlines are holding off on orders for Boeing's 737 Max — the latest sign of how deeply the company's best-selling jet has been thrown into crisis.

Boeing (BA) released data Tuesday that showed only 10 of the planes were ordered in the first two months of 2019. There were no orders in March, the month that a 737 Max jet flown by Ethiopian Airlines pilots crashed in that country, killing everyone aboard. It was the second fatal crash involving a Max in recent months.

Airlines have stopped ordering the 737 Max - CNN

 

[gregjrichards]

Boeing Co's legal troubles grew on Tuesday as a new lawsuit accused the company of defrauding shareholders by concealing safety deficiencies in its 737 MAX planes before two fatal crashes led to their worldwide grounding.

The proposed class action filed in Chicago federal court seeks damages for alleged securities fraud violations, after Boeing's market value tumbled by $34billion within two weeks of the March 10 crash of an Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX.

Chief Executive Dennis Muilenburg and Chief Financial Officer Gregory Smith were also named as defendants.

Boeing shareholders sue over 737 MAX crashes after market value tumbled by $34billion in two weeks | Daily Mail Online

 

[gregjrichards]

Boeing Co. BA -1.11% and U.S. aviation regulators will be seeking what amounts to an international stamp of approval around the time they roll out a safety fix for 737 MAX jets, expected this summer.

The strategy stems from a recognition by Boeing’s management and agency leaders that an impartial, outside group’s endorsement is essential to restore trust in the planes, according to industry and government officials briefed on the details of the plan.

Some U.S. and foreign airlines have privately sent such a message to the Chicago-based plane maker in recent weeks, according to some of these people.

Boeing Looks to Build Overseas Support for MAX Fix

 

[gregjrichards]

The crashes of two Boeing Co. 737 Max jets in five months have focused attention on a little-known device that malfunctioned, starting a chain reaction that sent the planes into deadly dives.

Pilots have for decades relied on the weather-vane-like “angle of attack” sensors to warn them when they near a dangerous aerodynamic stall. But investigators are probing Boeing’s decision to enable the sensors on the Max model to go beyond warning pilots and automatically force the plane’s nose down.

A review of public databases by Bloomberg News reveals the potential hazards of relying on the devices, which are mounted on the fuselage near the plane’s nose and are vulnerable to damage. There are at least 140 instances since the early 1990s of sensors on U.S. planes being damaged by jetways and other equipment on the ground or hitting birds in flight.

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

 

[Tripod]

A sudden spike in black box data was consistent with a bird or other debris hitting the plane as it was taking off, shearing away a vital airflow sensor, said the four experts and two US officials.

Ethiopian Airlines on Sunday called that scenario "completely speculative".

Ethiopian investigator Amdye Ayalew Fanta said a preliminary report released by Ethiopian investigators did not contain any indications of this.

Boeing said it would not comment on ongoing investigations.

https://www.smh.com.au/business/com...-just-12-seconds-sources-20190408-p51bv0.html

This is simply outrageous behavior on the part of Boeing. It looks and sounds like they'll say anything to shift the blame for the poor design of the aircraft. I hope all the families sue them for every cent they can get.

I read the article, but couldn't see any terrible comments from Boeing in it? The only comments that apparently were made by a Boeing official were more technical in nature. I thought it was quite a good explanatory article, if the detailed final investigative report confirms. It's going to be a while, but I certainly understand the necessity of getting all the answers ASAP. I also understand both Ethiopian Airlines and Boeing wish to protect their companies, but I further believe they place safety first. Maybe I'm a Pollyanna, but I do.