Ethiopian Air ET302, Boeing 737 crashes - 157 souls - 10 March 2019

[margarita25]

NYT:

As Europe and Others Ground Boeing 737 Max 8s, U.S. Holds Back
—

Trump Today: President says ‘airplanes far too complex to fly’ after Boeing’s 737 Max crash

 

[Cryptic]

I have a lot of respect for Ms. Schiavo from MH370 I wish she was in charge and had the authority to ground these dangerous aircraft.

As a side note, the Ethiopian aircraft was described by witnesses as smoking and with debris falling off. This does not appear to be similar to the Indonesian aircraft.

Also, two crashes do not automatically indicate that the plane is inherently dangerous. Crashes can be the result of human error. In the case of the Indonesian crash, the airline had an abysmal safety record and had experienced a crash with the latest Airbus plane as well.

 

[JanetElaine]

NYT:

As Europe and Others Ground Boeing 737 Max 8s, U.S. Holds Back
—

Trump Today: President says ‘airplanes far too complex to fly’ after Boeing’s 737 Max crash

I'm glad most 737 Max's have been grounded. IMO that's the best thing to do at the moment and hopefully they'll figure out what is going on asap. Might be a bit of an incentive, kwim?

 

[gregjrichards]

As a side note, the Ethiopian aircraft was described by witnesses as smoking and with debris falling off. This does not appear to be similar to the Indonesian aircraft.

Also, two crashes do not automatically indicate that the plane is inherently dangerous. Crashes can be the result of human error. In the case of the Indonesian crash, the airline had an abysmal safety record and had experienced a crash with the latest Airbus plane as well.

When you have two modern state of the art aircraft crash just minutes after take off I think it is right to be very cautious. 350 men, women and children have died in less than six months.

I'm glad most 737 Max's have been grounded. IMO that's the best thing to do at the moment and hopefully they'll figure out what is going on asap. Might be a bit of an incentive, kwim?

It will be interesting to see how long countries and airlines are prepared to ground these aircraft for finding the cause and solution may take some time.

Australia has now banned the planes when will the aviation authorities in the United States and Canada follow suit. It looks very bad to be the last two countries on Earth to ban the plane and the question is why this is the case?

 

[MsMarple]

According to this article at least 5 complaints were lodged by pilots in October and November regarding the autopilot system and the plane turning nose down while trying to gain altitude during takeoff.

Records show that a captain who flies the Max 8 complained in November that it was "unconscionable" that the company and federal authorities allowed pilots to fly the planes without adequate training or fully disclosing information about how its systems were different from previous 737 models.

The captain's complaint was logged after the FAA released an emergency airworthiness directive about the Boeing 737 Max 8 in response to the crash of Lion Air Flight 610 in Indonesia.

Boeing 737 Max 8 pilots complained to feds for months about suspected safety flaw | Airlines | Dallas News
http://knkt.dephub.go.id/knkt/ntsc_aviation/baru/pre/2018/2018 - 035 - PK-LQP Preliminary Report.pdf

I'm also reading similar comments from pilots elsewhere. For now I don't plan to fly on a 737 Max until the NTSB investigations are final. And I tend towards skepticism.

P.S. IMO Trump's tweets and comments are ridiculous and irrelevant to the current issue.

 

[Pi Thoughts]

I certainly hope Virgin Australia rethinks their decision to keep 30 new MAX 8 planes on order. Due by the end of the year.

https://www.smh.com.au/business/com...ing-737-max-8s-unchanged-20190311-p5138s.html

 

[squid]

IMO Trump's tweets and comments are ridiculous and irrelevant to the current issue.

If his sentiment is that automated systems have become relied upon too heavily then I wholeheartedly agree with him.

Discussion has been ongoing for years in the American press that as aircraft flight becomes more automated pilots are trained less to know how to fly a plane manually. What happens when the automated systems fail? Technology is not infallible.

 

[gregjrichards]

I certainly hope Virgin Australia rethinks their decision to keep 30 new MAX 8 planes on order. Due by the end of the year.

https://www.smh.com.au/business/com...ing-737-max-8s-unchanged-20190311-p5138s.html

It is going to be very interesting to see what happens with the over 5,000 Max 8 planes on order now only 350 have been delivered. U.K airline Ryanair has 135 on order and my family uses that airline a lot.

I don’t want the thread to get shut down if it becomes too political. I do have concerns about the relationship between Boeing, the FAA and the U.S Government and the $$$$$. I hope U.S and Canadian consumers make an informed decision about flying this aircraft.

I’m haunted by the photos on the news of the black body bags being loaded onto the truck. These poor men, women and children can’t die in vain. This cannot happen again and everything possible needs to be done to ensure this.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Acting FAA Administrator Daniel Elwell said the agency’s review of the 737 Max “shows no systematic performance issues and provides no basis to order grounding the aircraft.

Mary Schiavo, CNN aviation analyst and former inspector general for the US Transportation Dept, said “Not grounding the jets puts Boeing in a very bad light”.

Boeing says no grounding is needed. If it grounded all 737 Max planes for 3 months it could cost between $1 billion and $5 billion according to 2 Wall Street firms. This is peanuts to a company the size of Boeing. Last year it posted record revenue of $101 billion and a $10.6 billion profit. It’s forecasting stronger results this year.

The FAA and Boeing both say a software upgrade will give pilots greater control over planes in case problems emerge with the planes’ safety systems. The fix is due in April. If there’s no problem, why are they doing a software upgrade. I’m highly suspicious.

Boeing responds to grounding of its 737 MAX - CNN

 

[Tripod]

When you have two modern state of the art aircraft crash just minutes after take off I think it is right to be very cautious. 350 men, women and children have died in less than six months.



It will be interesting to see how long countries and airlines are prepared to ground these aircraft for finding the cause and solution may take some time.

Australia has now banned the planes when will the aviation authorities in the United States and Canada follow suit. It looks very bad to be the last two countries on Earth to ban the plane and the question is why this is the case?

I've seen a few different experts talk about this on TV, and more than one have said U.S. commercial pilot requirements are much more stringent than in some other countries, so one sort of "consensus", if you will, is that U.S. pilots flying the Max 8 are more adept and trained to handle those particular systems. I heard one man say that yes, he'd fly a Max 8 today in the U.S., but not without at least some reservations. Another fellow said he'd just flown on one last night and had no qualms about it whatsoever, and he sees no reason at all to ground the fleet in the U.S. at present. He was either a former NTSB or FAA official. No link, so you can consider it my speculation, rumor, or opinion for now
Personally, I think I'd wait until more is known. I love SouthWest and they have a lot of these planes, but I don't have to fly anywhere for the time-being, so I'm happy not to!

 

[gregjrichards]

Acting FAA Administrator Daniel Elwell said the agency’s review of the 737 Max “shows no systematic performance issues and provides no basis to order grounding the aircraft.

Mary Schiavo, CNN aviation analyst and former inspector general for the US Transportation Dept, said “Not grounding the jets puts Boeing in a very bad light”.

Boeing says no grounding is needed. If it grounded all 737 Max planes for 3 months it could cost between $1 billion and $5 billion according to 2 Wall Street firms. This is peanuts to a company the size of Boeing. Last year it posted record revenue of $101 billion and a $10.6 billion profit. It’s forecasting stronger results this year.

The FAA and Boeing both say a software upgrade will give pilots greater control over planes in case problems emerge with the planes’ safety systems. The fix is due in April. If there’s no problem, why are they doing a software upgrade. I’m highly suspicious.

Boeing responds to grounding of its 737 MAX - CNN

I agree with your post entirely. The software upgrade to the MCAS system is going to take time and the pilots around the world will need training on it. They won’t ground the plane because of the further damage it will do to its reputation and how much it will affect them financially but that shouldn’t be of consideration when people’s lives are at stake.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Boeing Statement on 737 MAX Operation

March 12, 2019 - Safety is Boeing’s number one priority and we have full confidence in the safety of the 737 MAX. We understand that regulatory agencies and customers have made decisions that they believe are most appropriate for their home markets. We’ll continue to engage with them to ensure they have the information needed to have confidence in operating their fleets. The United States Federal Aviation Administration is not mandating any further action at this time, and based on the information currently available, we do not have any basis to issue new guidance to operators.

Boeing Statement on 737 MAX Operation

And if pigs had wings, they could fly.

 

[squid]

Pilots complained to authorities about issues with the Boeing 737 Max for months before the deadly Ethiopian Airlines crash

"At the heart of the controversy surrounding the 737 Max is MCAS, the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System," Business Insider transportation correspondent Benjamin Zhang wrote.

"To fit the Max's larger, more fuel-efficient engines, Boeing had to redesign the way it mounts engines on the 737. This change disrupted the plane's center of gravity and caused the Max to have a tendency to tip its nose upward during flight, increasing the likelihood of a stall," Zhang said.

"MCAS is designed to automatically counteract that tendency and point the nose of the plane downward."

 

[Justice101]

Pilots complained to authorities about issues with the Boeing 737 Max for months before the deadly Ethiopian Airlines crash

"At the heart of the controversy surrounding the 737 Max is MCAS, the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System," Business Insider transportation correspondent Benjamin Zhang wrote.

"To fit the Max's larger, more fuel-efficient engines, Boeing had to redesign the way it mounts engines on the 737. This change disrupted the plane's center of gravity and caused the Max to have a tendency to tip its nose upward during flight, increasing the likelihood of a stall," Zhang said.

"MCAS is designed to automatically counteract that tendency and point the nose of the plane downward."

Thanks! That quote makes it understandable.

 

[gregjrichards]

Pilots complained to authorities about issues with the Boeing 737 Max for months before the deadly Ethiopian Airlines crash

"At the heart of the controversy surrounding the 737 Max is MCAS, the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System," Business Insider transportation correspondent Benjamin Zhang wrote.

"To fit the Max's larger, more fuel-efficient engines, Boeing had to redesign the way it mounts engines on the 737. This change disrupted the plane's center of gravity and caused the Max to have a tendency to tip its nose upward during flight, increasing the likelihood of a stall," Zhang said.

"MCAS is designed to automatically counteract that tendency and point the nose of the plane downward."

This graphic and article explains the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS) - an automated safety feature designed to prevent the plane from entering into a stall, or losing lift.

The Boeing 'safety feature' in 737 Max 8 jets that crashed after take-off | Daily Mail Online

I am outraged at the grieving families being photographed at the crash site today have the photographers no sense of decency?

 

[JudgeJudi]

I am outraged at the grieving families being photographed at the crash site today have the photographers no sense of decency?

I am too. These photos are symptomatic of the ugly world we live in today. A lack of respect, decency, integrity and coarseness at every turn.

 

[Cryptic]

When you have two modern state of the art aircraft crash just minutes after take off I think it is right to be very cautious. 350 men, women and children have died in less than six months.

Yes, I agree, it is right to be very cautious. There are, however, multiple possible reasons for the caution. These reasons could include:

- Possible design faults with the airplane.

- Possibility of Airlines buying "too much" plane for their technological expertise and level of pilot trainin and then experiencing avoidable crashes.

- A combination situation where the plane is inherently safe in the hands of well trained pilots and ground technicians, but where the autopilot and sensors are unusually unforgiving in the hands of pilots / technicians with lesser qualifications.

 

[dotr]

d

 

[dotr]

So relieved to learn this, loved ones left yesterday in one of these aircrafts..
Garneau grounds all Boeing 737 Max 8 airliners in Canada
March 13, 2019 12:40PM EDT
Transport Minister Marc Garneau is closing Canadian skies to the Boeing 737 Max 8 aircraft, effectively grounding the planes over safety concerns arising from the crash of an Ethiopian Airlines flight that killed everyone on board, including 18 Canadians.

The decision to ground the plane is a precautionary move that was made after a review of all the available evidence, Garneau told a news conference Wednesday in Ottawa that was twice delayed by what he called new incoming information.

“There are - and I hasten to say not conclusive - but there are similarities” between the Ethiopian Airlines flight profile and that of a Lion Air flight involving the same aircraft that crashed off the Indonesian coast in October, the minister said

 

[gregjrichards]

So relieved to learn this, loved ones left yesterday in one of these aircrafts..
Garneau grounds all Boeing 737 Max 8 airliners in Canada
March 13, 2019 12:40PM EDT
Transport Minister Marc Garneau is closing Canadian skies to the Boeing 737 Max 8 aircraft, effectively grounding the planes over safety concerns arising from the crash of an Ethiopian Airlines flight that killed everyone on board, including 18 Canadians.

The decision to ground the plane is a precautionary move that was made after a review of all the available evidence, Garneau told a news conference Wednesday in Ottawa that was twice delayed by what he called new incoming information.

“There are - and I hasten to say not conclusive - but there are similarities” between the Ethiopian Airlines flight profile and that of a Lion Air flight involving the same aircraft that crashed off the Indonesian coast in October, the minister said

There is huge pressure on the United States to do the same now if they don’t it will look very bad. How can you continue flying this aircraft when practically every other country in the world has banned it?

I wonder what evidence Canada has reviewed to reach the decision.

From Airliners it is being reported that Germany is going to do the analysis of the flight data recorders.