Evidence for "Dead body in the Damn Car"

[joypath]

Respectfully snipped:

Bold is mine.
Is there a report that explains how they determined the hair belongs to a female? It's my understanding of mtDNA that LA would have the same mtDNA as Casey and Caylee. I'm very interested in how they can tell that the mtDNA is from a female.

The question raised is valid, my comment was made based on the statement of the report: comparison of hair samples of Casey Anthony and Caylee Anthony, the FBI AT THAT TIME did not include any other individuals within the known exemplar category. Like any good expert witness, I answer only the question asked, never offer more than needed to present one's point!

 

[thedeviledadvocate]

TDA, you need to explain how you think the coffin flies contamined the trash bag while in dumpster. Where do you think these little guys come from? Do you think they were just hanging around waiting for a dead body to show up, LOL? They would have to come from the environment because they surely did not originate in the trash bag they had to come from somewhere. As is stated above the coffin flies are not the same as blow flies and show up later after decomp has started. They don't show up for a ham sandwhich as the blow flies would have finished that up pronto as you stated.

I do not believe coffin flies would hang around a dumpster unless dead bodies were deposited on a regular basis. And even if they were there they would be going after any decomposition in the bag which they did. KC was not riding around town with her own special coffin flies, they had to have come from outside the trunk.

The definition of contaminant would be: complex materials such as hair or skin particles arising from sources not related to the ongoing investigation. So I think to use the word contaminated is misleading.

http://www.lsuagcenter.com/en/environment/insects/public_health/Humpback+Or+Coffin+Flies.htm

I will gladly explain how I think coffin flies contaminated the white trash bag. Coffin flies can infest decaying plant, or animal matter, dead insects, sludge in the bottom of trash cans (dumpsters), liquids remaining in bottles or cans. So with new info from the University of Louisiana (ag center), my opinion is now a little stronger. Coffin flies are not exclusive to coffins, graveyards and mausoleums. In fact, it is very possible to get these critters in your home. They are just as attracted to garbage as they are to human cadavers. They can be found in garbage cans, dumpsters, drains in the home, etc.

Unless the dumpster in the towyard was free of sludge, dead insects, decaying plant or animal matter(which would include ham sandwiches and or burger king leftovers), or any bottles or cans that have any liquid left in them, then I just have to believe that before the white trash bag was placed in that dumpster, there were already coffin flys inside the dumpster. So, it follows, if there were coffin flys in the dumpster, there is the potential that these coffin flys invaded the white trash bag, while it sat in the dumpster for 30 hours. If this happened, you would have coffin flys from the dumpster mixed in with whatever flies were already in the bag. You would also have other flies that hang around the dumpster as well. I believe the entomologists are very talented, but I don’t think they can distinguish which flies came from the dumpster from the flies that were in the white trash bag prior to being placed in the dumpster. These other insects getting in to the white trash bag would contaminate the white trash bag, because these other insects would seriously distort the results from the tests done by the entomologist. The experts all agree that chain of custody is of vital importance in ensuring reliable test results. Once they picked the white trash bag up, the protocol was followed properly. No one is to blame for the white trash bag being placed in the dumpster, but I believe the fact that it was in the dumpster makes the bug report regarding the white trash bag unreliable. So that’s my story and I’m sticking to it LOL. As always, my entire post is moo

 

[Jolynna]

http://www.lsuagcenter.com/en/environment/insects/public_health/Humpback+Or+Coffin+Flies.htm

I will gladly explain how I think coffin flies contaminated the white trash bag. Coffin flies can infest decaying plant, or animal matter, dead insects, sludge in the bottom of trash cans (dumpsters), liquids remaining in bottles or cans. So with new info from the University of Louisiana (ag center), my opinion is now a little stronger. Coffin flies are not exclusive to coffins, graveyards and mausoleums. In fact, it is very possible to get these critters in your home. They are just as attracted to garbage as they are to human cadavers. They can be found in garbage cans, dumpsters, drains in the home, etc.

Unless the dumpster in the towyard was free of sludge, dead insects, decaying plant or animal matter(which would include ham sandwiches and or burger king leftovers), or any bottles or cans that have any liquid left in them, then I just have to believe that before the white trash bag was placed in that dumpster, there were already coffin flys inside the dumpster. So, it follows, if there were coffin flys in the dumpster, there is the potential that these coffin flys invaded the white trash bag, while it sat in the dumpster for 30 hours. If this happened, you would have coffin flys from the dumpster mixed in with whatever flies were already in the bag. You would also have other flies that hang around the dumpster as well. I believe the entomologists are very talented, but I don’t think they can distinguish which flies came from the dumpster from the flies that were in the white trash bag prior to being placed in the dumpster. These other insects getting in to the white trash bag would contaminate the white trash bag, because these other insects would seriously distort the results from the tests done by the entomologist. The experts all agree that chain of custody is of vital importance in ensuring reliable test results. Once they picked the white trash bag up, the protocol was followed properly. No one is to blame for the white trash bag being placed in the dumpster, but I believe the fact that it was in the dumpster makes the bug report regarding the white trash bag unreliable. So that’s my story and I’m sticking to it LOL. As always, my entire post is moo

BBM

Sometimes what you DON'T find is every bit as important as what you do find.

No blow flies, bottle flies, fruit flies, house fly or their pupa, eggs or cases were found in the white trash bag from Casey's trunk. IF there was food in that dumpster, a slew of garbage eating insects, their offspring and their remains would have made it into the white trash bag. (Bag ties don't keep blow flies out of trash bags.) But that didn't happen. I think there was just the dried-out leg remnants from a deceased blow fly (which could have come in any time KC opened the trunk lid) to show that anything but a "coffin flies" ever found a way to whatever was in the garbage bag.

The thriving generations of "coffin fly" colonies and case remnants show "coffin fly" life cycles going on in the Pontiac trunk since late June or early July.

If the white trash bag had been breached because of being in the dumpster, they would be living and deceased signs of bugs other than "coffin flies".

Here's the Entomology Investigation which details what species of insects were found where: http://www.clickorlando.com/download/2009/1106/21539770.pdf

 

[Jolynna]

Simon Burch saw the flies BEFORE the bag was tossed into the dumpster:

SB: And uh, we open the trunk up and there was flies and stuff and a real bad smell like oh, my God. And, and in the back of my head I’m going that isn’t rotten garbage. You know I know what rotten garbage smells like. That doesn’t smell like rotten garbage to me. page 7http://www.cfnews13.com/uploadedFiles/Burch Simon-0724.pdf
​

Simon looks into the bag and describes the contents:

And (unintelligible) it was, there was many papers and stuff on top. Uhm, I think in the bag, I, I think I remember seeing a pizza box, but I’m not sure.Page 8

GW: Now you stood next to dumpsters before?
SB: Yes.
GW: You know you’re, you, you throw trash in dumpsters.
SB: Yeah (affirmative).
GW: How close was to a dumpster smell was…
SB: Uhm….
GW: …the Anthony’s car?
SB: …not, not really, not really a similar smell. Uh, and, but again, you know maggots and what-have-you, I guess I assume that every garbage smells differently.
GW: Right.
SB: I’ve had rotten fish here in cars under the seats. I’ve had steaks left under the seats and they smell totally different. A piece of rotten steak that’s all maggot infested smells way different than a piece of rotten fish.
GW: Right.
SB: Uhm, I do remember saying to uh, uhm, one of my employees when I came back (unintelligible) girl I said, “You know he was telling me on the Mr., the, the guy was telling on the way over there about his granddaughter missing and I opened the car door and there was a stench.” And I said, and I said, “And it’s just like a flash went through my mind and I went oh, my God, you know, she’s in the trunk kind of thing.”
GW: Right. Page 15

SB: Yeah (affirmative). Yeah (affirmative), fortunately we don’t do, we don’t generate a tremendous about of really bad garbage here, but yeah (affirmative), it’s a….
GW: What, what was different about the bag that, that stood out in your head….
SB: Uh…
GW: …that you thought you’d be able to find that one bag?
SB: Oh, because it was a white, it was a white garbage bag and uh, it had yellow uhm, handles on it I believe. If I remember right it had yellow handles on it.
GW: The little draw, the drawstring?
SB: Yeah (affirmative). Yeah (affirmative). And my garbage bags that we have here we use black ones and all ones with red handles in it. And I just, I remember the bag, okay?
GW: So it, that….
SB: (Unintelligible)….
GW: …that bag stuck out in your head?
SB: Yeah (affirmative), it, it would have done. I’d have seen, I’d have recognized it in the, in the dumpster, which was mostly black garbage bags. PAGE 20


GW: Right.
SB: I would have spotted it, and then the flies would have probably given it away too. PAGE 21
​

 

[Harmony 2]

Hopefully this kind of testing has been done. Then there should be no question... but there probably still would be.

In this study we demonstrate that mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) sequence data can be obtained from the dissected gut of a maggot that had fed on human tissue. These data can be used to identify both the human corpse upon which the maggot had been feeding and the species of the maggot itself.

http://www.astm.org/JOURNALS/FORENSIC/PAGES/JFS4630685.htm

 

[mitzi]

In post 494, I explained how I came to the opinion that it is not Adipocere on the paper towels, so no, I am not saying the body farm is wrong or lying.
I apologize if my opinions are upsetting anyone. I am supplying the links to back up how I formulated my opinions. I am not stating any of my opinions as fact. Yes, I am scrutinizing the terminology used by the experts, and I am allowed to formulate an opinion on what those words say. I am pointing out what I believe to be conflicting statements made by Dr. H and Dr. V. It is my opinion the 4 or more days (Dr. H) conflicts with 0.7 to 2.6 days (Dr. V). It is my opinion that the maggots ate the food in the white trash bag(that in my opinion is contaminated), during the 17 days the bag was in the trunk. In light of everything in the above paragraph I am not convinced there was a dead body in the dam car Whether anyone agrees or disagrees with my opinions is entirely up to the individual. As always, my entire post is moo.

But didn't we already go over the reasons the OCSO and FBI use words such as "like", "consistent", etc? Why do we have to continue to go over and over things? With respect, thedeviledadvocate, we already explained the reason the terminology is such as it is to NTS. Maybe it's on another thread...does anyone elso know if it is on this thread or on another that we can post for TDA?

 

[Jolynna]

Nicole Lett's recollection of her conversation with Simon Burch about the white trash bag:

And the fact that when I know that I didn’t see it except for Simon coming back up and mentioning that he, when he opened the door flies came flying out and there was a bag of trash in the trunk, which in return he threw away into the dumpster.
http://www.cfnews13.com/uploadedFiles/Lett Nicole0824.pdf PAGE 13

​

George Anthony in his interview with Yuri Melich and John Allen discussing opening the Pontiac trunk on July 13: http://www.cfnews13.com/uploadedFiles/Lett Nicole0824.pdf

PAGE 22
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YM: One thing I’ve been meaning to ask, and I apologize maybe this isn’t a good time, but only because this might be the only, I don’t know how often we’ll be able to sit and talk. When I first saw you that night when I first came to your house there was a mention of the car. And there was a mention of what you smelled in the car.
GA: Uh-hum (affirmative).
YM: Do you remember what you told me?
GA: I, I, I believe that there’s something dead back there. And I hate to say the word human. Uhm, I, I hate to say that. As a matter of fact, when you were in court the other day you did not say that initially. You were led with that by the

PAGE 23
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prosecutor. I, I caught that. I’m not too naïve. So she led that in to be human decomposition. You did not say that. I know that as a fact.I’ve been around that. I mean the law enforcement stuff that I did, we caught people out in the woods, in a house, in a, in a car. So I know what it smells like. It’s a smell that you never…
JA: Uh-hum (affirmative).
GA: …never get rid of. When I first went there to pick up that vehicle I got within three feet of it I could smell something. You look up and you say, please don’t let this be. Please don’t let this be. Because may…I’m thinking of my daughter and my granddaughter first. I glance in the car on the passenger side, I see her seat’s there and I see some other stuff around in it. And as I walk around to the driver’s side and put the key in it, I said, “Please don’t let this be what I think it is.” The wrecker, I don’t know what the gentleman’s name. I still don’t know. I’m sure you guys know it by now. But he, and I opened up the door and he said, “Whoa, does that stink.” I said, I sat in the car for a second. I opened up the passenger door because I was trying to vent that thing.
YM: Yeah (affirmative).
GA: You know and I smell and I’m like, “Oh, God.” I tried to start the car for a second and I said, “No, George, if there’s something wrong. You got to find out now. You can’t take it away.” I told the guy, I said, “Will you please walk around to the back of this car and look inside this with me?” As I walked around, I don’t believe I said to him you know aloud and I, I think I whispered out to myself “Please don’t let this be my Caylee.” That’s what I thought. That’s what I, my heart was saying. I opened it up and that’s when I seen that bag. I did see a stain. I think

PAGE 24
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it’s right about where the spare tire was at. Basketball size, or something around there. I don’t know if it’s exactly circular.
YM: Was it where though? Was it where the bag was, or was it next to the bags?
GA: I don’t know. But the bag was on the, you know where the taillight is on the left hand side?
YM: (Affirmative).
GA: The bag was centered more towards that area.
YM: So the bag wasn’t on the stain? The stain was a different spot.
GA: It was, yeah (affirmative), it was, it was right over there. And as the guy, the guy reached inside himself and he says, “Oh, my God.” And that’s when I saw the, the pizza box. I saw what I believe were some kind of insect able (sic) type things and then…
YM: So the bag was open? Was it pouring out on….
GA: No, no, no. The, the bag was closed.
YM: Oh, okay.
GA: And then it was vented probably about the size of this can.
YM: Uh-hum (affirmative).
GA: And it had the ties on it.
YM: Oh, okay.



​

 

[RR0004]

He opened the door? I assume that he meant trunk, right?

 

[Jolynna]

He opened the door? I assume that he meant trunk, right?

Simon Burch said earlier in his interview that the smell wasn't all that bad until they opened up the trunk. About the trunk SB said on page 7 & 8: "And uh, we open the trunk up and there was flies and stuff and a real bad smell like oh, my God."

 

[Harmony 2]

Simon Burch said earlier in his interview that the smell wasn't all that bad until they opened up the trunk. About the trunk SB said on page 7 & 8: "And uh, we open the trunk up and there was flies and stuff and a real bad smell like oh, my God."

..... and that was when George heard the popping sound coming from the maggots....before the bag was thrown out in the dumpster.

 

[Marina2]

Hopefully this kind of testing has been done. Then there should be no question... but there probably still would be.



http://www.astm.org/JOURNALS/FORENSIC/PAGES/JFS4630685.htm

Sadly, the maggots found in the trunk are probably not the same ones that fed on remains tissue. They are likely a generation or two removed from those that did.

 

[BeanE]

But didn't we already go over the reasons the OCSO and FBI use words such as "like", "consistent", etc? Why do we have to continue to go over and over things? With respect, thedeviledadvocate, we already explained the reason the terminology is such as it is to NTS. Maybe it's on another thread...does anyone elso know if it is on this thread or on another that we can post for TDA?

Looks like the terminology is a candidate for the myth busters thread.

 

[cyberborg]

Looks like the terminology is a candidate for the myth busters thread.

That'd be cool because some members are expecting experts to make definitive statements, like absolutely or exactly or even match when in the science community you are NEVER going to get that.

Consistent with is very strong language.

 

[flourish]

That'd be cool because some members are expecting experts to make definitive statements, like absolutely or exactly or even match when in the science community you are NEVER going to get that.

Consistent with is very strong language.

Totally, like if the FBI took a sheet of paper, cut in half in the presence of a thousand notaries on live television, then inspected by the FBI lab, they still wouldn't say those two halves of paper match each other with 100% certainty. It's just not how it's done regardless of how much we might wish it were so. 'Course, I'd be interested in seeing any FBI lab reports, from any modern case, which does state the results of a test using these desired definitive terms, if anyone digs one up.

:square:

 

[Pondering Mind]

That'd be cool because some members are expecting experts to make definitive statements, like absolutely or exactly or even match when in the science community you are NEVER going to get that.

Consistent with is very strong language.

ITA cyber! Nothing in science is ever 100%, but IMHO once all this evidence in total against KC is presented to the jurors, they will see it for what it is. Casey Anthony had a dead body in the trunk of her car and that dead body belonged to her daughter. Furthermore she knew that she had a dead body in her trunk because she put her there after she murdered Caylee...

MOO for now, after the trial I believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that I'll be able to state it as a fact..

 

[seekingjustice**]

That'd be cool because some members are expecting experts to make definitive statements, like absolutely or exactly or even match when in the science community you are NEVER going to get that.

Consistent with is very strong language.

BBM - ITA cyberborg and I remember when I was at school, a few years ago now lol, my Science teacher said "There are NO Absolutes. There is NO Absolute Truth!"...

 

[noonie]

I'm sure they already know and so do the majority here.

 

[InspectorGadget]

(snipped)

IIRC , One Tree Hill was listed by KC as one of her favorite shows on her dating site profile.

Hi knt

Do you have a link for that at all? Since I have started posting here I am beginning to realise that I have missed quite a few documents.

TIA

 

[LambChop]

http://www.lsuagcenter.com/en/environment/insects/public_health/Humpback+Or+Coffin+Flies.htm

I will gladly explain how I think coffin flies contaminated the white trash bag. Coffin flies can infest decaying plant, or animal matter, dead insects, sludge in the bottom of trash cans (dumpsters), liquids remaining in bottles or cans. So with new info from the University of Louisiana (ag center), my opinion is now a little stronger. Coffin flies are not exclusive to coffins, graveyards and mausoleums. In fact, it is very possible to get these critters in your home. They are just as attracted to garbage as they are to human cadavers. They can be found in garbage cans, dumpsters, drains in the home, etc.

Unless the dumpster in the towyard was free of sludge, dead insects, decaying plant or animal matter(which would include ham sandwiches and or burger king leftovers), or any bottles or cans that have any liquid left in them, then I just have to believe that before the white trash bag was placed in that dumpster, there were already coffin flys inside the dumpster. So, it follows, if there were coffin flys in the dumpster, there is the potential that these coffin flys invaded the white trash bag, while it sat in the dumpster for 30 hours. If this happened, you would have coffin flys from the dumpster mixed in with whatever flies were already in the bag. You would also have other flies that hang around the dumpster as well. I believe the entomologists are very talented, but I don’t think they can distinguish which flies came from the dumpster from the flies that were in the white trash bag prior to being placed in the dumpster. These other insects getting in to the white trash bag would contaminate the white trash bag, because these other insects would seriously distort the results from the tests done by the entomologist. The experts all agree that chain of custody is of vital importance in ensuring reliable test results. Once they picked the white trash bag up, the protocol was followed properly. No one is to blame for the white trash bag being placed in the dumpster, but I believe the fact that it was in the dumpster makes the bug report regarding the white trash bag unreliable. So that’s my story and I’m sticking to it LOL. As always, my entire post is moo

The word contaminate would lead you to believe that the coffin flies were where they should not have been. Insects are part of our natural environment so contaminate is not an accurate word in this sense. The flies had to come from somewhere, whether from downtown Orlando or the dumpster. Contamination would be if someone had put something in the bag that did not belong there. If there was decomposition in the bag the coffin flies would be drawn to it. Also how long the insects were in the bag is easily determined. I just feel use of the word contamination is misleading. JMO

Remember the words of JB: "Who are you going to believe, me, or your own eyes?" I'll stick with the experts but thank you for your thoughts.

 

[InspectorGadget]

Thanks for the interesting thread at the bottom of your post.

I agree that those who inspected the trash bag found no food, according to the reports. However, I am of the opinion that there must have been food in that white bag at some point in time prior to said inspection, because you would not normally find maggots where no food is present. So, I believe maggots ate any food that may at one time have been in the white bag.

My post that was quoted was entirely speculation, based on adipocere forming within a month, and maggots being capable of consuming 60% of a human in 7 days, and maggots being in the white trash bag.

First and foremost, in regards to the coffin flys, and actually any evidence and or expert reports that are made from evidence collected from the white trash bag, my own opinion is that since that white bag sat in a dumpster for roughly 30 hours, and dumpsters (even dumpsters that have no dead bodies in them) are known to have coffin flys in them. The tow yard attendant was quoted as saying there was a car that had a body in it for several days in the towyard, and the smell was awful. This leads me to believe that coffin flys would have been attracted to that car, and when that food source expired they then may look for food in the dumpster in the towyard. The towyard guy also said he had thrown food from other cars into that dumpster. So, I have formed the opinion that it is possible that coffin flys were present in the dumpster where the white trash bag was placed, and that these coffin flys could have entered the white bag, and this would contaminate the white trash bag as far as from an evidentiary standpoint. In my opinion anyway.

I am somewhat certain there was a dead body in the dam car. I just seem to find more questions than answers every single time I go back and reread the expert reports, and documents. LOL

As always, my entire post is moo

There may or may not have been a dead body in the dam car! Whether there was or was not, it does not provide us with conclusive proof that Casey killed Caylee.

Some of the problems with the evidence are that the tow yard guy states that the trash bag from the trunk had a yellow handle, and the one in the evidence picture has blue handles. There are two white bags in the photo of the towyard dumpster but we cannot see the handles of the second bag. The dumpster itself has some pretty murky looking gunk in the bottom.