Evidence of Premeditation?

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I missed the autism comment? I know there have been a lot of things said but can you direct me to that one? TIA!

thanks. i hadn't heard anything about this either. apparently, per wondering1's post august 21 it is said that it was talked about by someone on facebook. i just found an earlier post by wondering1 who follows the persons facebook information.

I bolded wondering1's post below.

-----------------------------------------

I thought I posted this already...sorry :)

from the author:

The article does not mention anything about ADD/ADHD but rather Terri Horman suggested after Kyron went missing that he might have a form of autism, according to Kaine Horman and Desiree Young.

On the Facebook page, I follow a lot of blogs covering a range of views.

Lynne Terry
The Oregonian


http://connect.oregonlive.com/user/lterry/index.html
 
If we don't have a link to MSM we cannot discuss here. Random FB comments are not considered valid facts. It is rumor. Thanks.
 
If we don't have a link to MSM we cannot discuss here. Random FB comments are not considered valid facts. It is rumor. Thanks.

It was in the Oregonian last summer. It was discussed here.

"Profile in Contradiction" thread, post # 528,

"
Originally Posted by BeanE
I missed the autism reference. I just checked the Oregonian piece and didn't see it. Could you tell me which article it's in please?


Thanks!
It is in the print edition on a caption of a photo of Terri at the first press conference with the family. It is not in the online story. It is in Saturday's Oregonian, page A9. The caption says,

"After Kyron Horman didn't come home on the school bus June 4, investigators focused on his stepmother Terri Horman. Kaine Horman and Desiree Young were surprised when Terri suddenly mentioned that the boy might have a form of autism. "Kyron never had any learning disabilities," Young said. "He was a talented and gifted child."

If you don't want to take my word for it, I guess you can ask other Portlanders to verify with their Saturday paper."
 
Lynne Terry, reporter at the Oregonian, wrote this article, then put the two comments below after it. She also wrote an accompanying piece for the print edition of the paper. The online article doesn't have the autism reference - it's the print edition that had it, as confirmed in previous discussions with our locals.

Here's the online article:

Terri Moulton Horman: Kyron Horman's stepmother is a profile in contradictions
Published: Thursday, August 19, 2010, 10:30 PM
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/08/terri_horman.html


Lynne's first comment:

Lynne Terry, The Oregonian August 20, 2010 at 9:39AM
Follow
bfhypo2009 -

Desiree and Kaine did not mention anything about ADD/ADHD and the article does not mention that either. What they said, and what the article says, is that after Kyron disappeared, Terri Horman suggested he might have some form of autism such as Asperger's Syndrome.

Lynne Terry
The Oregonian


http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/08/terri_horman/4053/comments-6.html


Lynne's second comment:

Lynne Terry, The Oregonian August 20, 2010 at 9:58AM
Follow
bisou73 -

The article does not mention anything about ADD/ADHD but rather Terri Horman suggested after Kyron went missing that he might have a form of autism, according to Kaine Horman and Desiree Young.

On the Facebook page, I follow a lot of blogs covering a range of views.

Lynne Terry
The Oregonian


http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/08/terri_horman/4053/comments-9.html


Here are all Lynne Terry's comments. There's a little bit of interesting info in them, for anyone who wants to peruse them.

http://connect.oregonlive.com/user/lterry/comments.html
 
I'm wondering if suddenly suggesting that Kyron might have a form of Autism wasn't an excuse for why she was noticing the forgetfulness and walking into a room then out again. If she hadn't told Kyron's parents about possible mini seizures, maybe she suggested that she was thinking of several possibilities since she has such education and experience, but didn't want to alarm them yet. As far as premeditation, it could be setting up a scenario where he wandered off and fell into a ravine. They need to search and search again IMO. But, Kaine has, in a way, given Terri an out for this behavior that would contradict premeditation. He has since said that Terri creates problems with all the kids that she can later take credit for solving. The mini seizures, autism symptoms, and the daily behavior charts could have been "normal" behavior for her towards all the kids and not some plot to kill a child. Suggesting personality disorders could also give her an out since narcissists blame others regularly instead of themselve. So far, we've seen that she's blamed Kaine, the teacher, Kyron, possibly Desiree, the LS guy, etc. It may also be normal behavior for her .
 
In addition to all the well researched and thoroughly scrutinized reasons pointing to the premeditated absconding of Ky, here’s my 2-cents:

TH lied from the get-go.

First reports from MCSO spokesperson Lt. Mary Lindstrand said: “I am told she went up one stairwell, he went up another stairwell; she saw him walking down the hall towards his classroom.” http://www.katu.com/news/local/95691389.html

This statement appeared in some of the first written reports (you’ll need to trust my post-menopausal brain on that one :); but, now, I can find it no where except in the Lindstrand interview, part of the video report available at the above URL.

More recent media stories say:
“At 8:45 a.m. when the bell rang, Terri walked her stepson down the hall close to his class.”

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/details_emerge_about_the_day_k.html

"He told her, 'I'm going back to the classroom, Mom,' and she waves to him and left," Carol Moulton said. "She thought he was safely at school just like he is everyday."

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/details_emerge_about_the_day_k.html

My point: Even in the earliest days, TH’s story obviously changed. IMO, the “up two different stairwells” is key, as is the “story” TH told her mother (above URL).

TH planned, early on, to tell a story of separation (“… she (TH) went up one stairwell, he went up another stairwell.” When LE truly looked at the school layout and TH’s statement she and KY explored “two to three classrooms” …

http://www.katu.com/news/local/95691389.html,

… then found themselves downstairs, home to the K-1 kids and the cafeteria … (I *think* the school maps and local reports will support me here) … LE had to say “WTH?”

IMO, TH’s *early on* recollections point to premeditation. Why? Because her earliest “when I last saw Ky” story is BS. Just take it from there.
 
I've been following all of the recent, horrible cases...from Zahra, to the two women and the child in Ohio a few weeks ago, to the three little boys in Ohio/Michigan breaking right now...and one thing I can't help but notice is that LE has been able to get information out of the suspects/POI's in all three of those cases...I can't help but wonder how LE interogated Terri and how it is that she was able to basically blow them off for the three weeks plus until she got an attorney...

I know, lots of people will say it is because she is a sociopath and they don't have normal reactions, etc...
But I see her an alcoholic housewife with a personality disorder who did not have a great deal of contact/experience in dealing with law enforcement, especially at levels such as FBI, etc...and it just shocks me that she could be confronted with changing stories, failed LD's, and still never give up a thing that has led to Kyron or an arrest...
 
I've been following all of the recent, horrible cases...from Zahra, to the two women and the child in Ohio a few weeks ago, to the three little boys in Ohio/Michigan breaking right now...and one thing I can't help but notice is that LE has been able to get information out of the suspects/POI's in all three of those cases...I can't help but wonder how LE interogated Terri and how it is that she was able to basically blow them off for the three weeks plus until she got an attorney...

I know, lots of people will say it is because she is a sociopath and they don't have normal reactions, etc...
But I see her an alcoholic housewife with a personality disorder who did not have a great deal of contact/experience in dealing with law enforcement, especially at levels such as FBI, etc...and it just shocks me that she could be confronted with changing stories, failed LD's, and still never give up a thing that has led to Kyron or an arrest...


Well, you should check out the Haleigh Cummings case, Misty Croslin is exactly like Terri, failed lie detector tests, was last seen with the child, and she hasn't given up anything either, it happens, its not really an indicator of anything besides having something to hide.
 
Well, you should check out the Haleigh Cummings case, Misty Croslin is exactly like Terri, failed lie detector tests, was last seen with the child, and she hasn't given up anything either, it happens, its not really an indicator of anything besides having something to hide.

I am extremely familiar with Misty and company...as just making an observation that LE in these recent cases seems to have been able to get much or at least some of what they needed from the suspect and wish it had been the case here...
 
I've been following all of the recent, horrible cases...from Zahra, to the two women and the child in Ohio a few weeks ago, to the three little boys in Ohio/Michigan breaking right now...and one thing I can't help but notice is that LE has been able to get information out of the suspects/POI's in all three of those cases...I can't help but wonder how LE interogated Terri and how it is that she was able to basically blow them off for the three weeks plus until she got an attorney...

I know, lots of people will say it is because she is a sociopath and they don't have normal reactions, etc...
But I see her an alcoholic housewife with a personality disorder who did not have a great deal of contact/experience in dealing with law enforcement, especially at levels such as FBI, etc...and it just shocks me that she could be confronted with changing stories, failed LD's, and still never give up a thing that has led to Kyron or an arrest...

I don't think Terri is a psychopath, I think she's just got a lot of practice lying, so doesn't immediately come across as someone consumed with guilt and tripping herself up.

I think Terri had a story for that day, one she'd created, and during the first set of questioning she just stuck to it. Then failed the first LDT. Realized parts of her story weren't holding up and thought of some plan B story lines (IMO she likely was testing those stories out on family and friends - the "man chaperone", the seizures and 'wandering', perhaps a slightly different version of her time line or position in the school before leaving). Tried out some of the new story lines in LDT 2 (the one she took, not the one she walked out on) - and those didn't work very well. Got an attorney before there could be a round 2 of the 5 hour questioning.

I don't think LE had continuous access to her after that first round of questioning. I think she avoided going in for more interrogation. And I've never heard that the FBI questioned her at all... perhaps they'd have had better results.
 
I've been following all of the recent, horrible cases...from Zahra, to the two women and the child in Ohio a few weeks ago, to the three little boys in Ohio/Michigan breaking right now...and one thing I can't help but notice is that LE has been able to get information out of the suspects/POI's in all three of those cases...I can't help but wonder how LE interogated Terri and how it is that she was able to basically blow them off for the three weeks plus until she got an attorney...

I know, lots of people will say it is because she is a sociopath and they don't have normal reactions, etc...
But I see her an alcoholic housewife with a personality disorder who did not have a great deal of contact/experience in dealing with law enforcement, especially at levels such as FBI, etc...and it just shocks me that she could be confronted with changing stories, failed LD's, and still never give up a thing that has led to Kyron or an arrest...

I don't think Terri is a psychopath, I think she's just got a lot of practice lying, so doesn't immediately come across as someone consumed with guilt and tripping herself up.

I think Terri had a story for that day, one she'd created, and during the first set of questioning she just stuck to it. Then failed the first LDT. Realized parts of her story weren't holding up and thought of some plan B story lines (IMO she likely was testing those stories out on family and friends - the "man chaperone", the seizures and 'wandering', perhaps a slightly different version of her time line or position in the school before leaving). Tried out some of the new story lines in LDT 2 (the one she took, not the one she walked out on) - and those didn't work very well. Got an attorney before there could be a round 2 of the 5 hour questioning.

I don't think LE had continuous access to her after that first round of questioning. I think she avoided going in for more interrogation. And I've never heard that the FBI questioned her at all... perhaps they'd have had better results.

bbm

cluciano63 mentioned socio not psycho...lol ;)
 
I've been following all of the recent, horrible cases...from Zahra, to the two women and the child in Ohio a few weeks ago, to the three little boys in Ohio/Michigan breaking right now...and one thing I can't help but notice is that LE has been able to get information out of the suspects/POI's in all three of those cases...I can't help but wonder how LE interogated Terri and how it is that she was able to basically blow them off for the three weeks plus until she got an attorney...

I know, lots of people will say it is because she is a sociopath and they don't have normal reactions, etc...
But I see her an alcoholic housewife with a personality disorder who did not have a great deal of contact/experience in dealing with law enforcement, especially at levels such as FBI, etc...and it just shocks me that she could be confronted with changing stories, failed LD's, and still never give up a thing that has led to Kyron or an arrest...



Most criminals confess or incriminate themselves in some way. At least that what a law professor I had in law school told me. He was a federal public defender for decades and said that the Miranda Warning was useless. No matter how many times he coached his clients on how to invoke when arrested (most being repeat offenders), they'd pretty much always talk and say something to get themselves in trouble. I think it's because criminals are either very dumb or sociopathic and thus thinking they are smarter than LE.

But, I believe TH has talked and given information to LE. I think she has given LE a lot to work with. I think she has incriminated herself and/or pointed the finger at herself, if reports are true, with strange statements, failing LDTs, inconsistencies, cell phone tracking, e-mail messages, and an overall off reaction to the disappearance of Kyron.

Also, I don't know that the cases you cited are too far apart from where we are in this case. EB did talk and helped LE find Zahra, or at least part of her, but no one has been arrested yet for her murder.
And in the case of the Skelton brothers in Ohio/Michigan, despite the fact that their dad has talked, their bodies have not been found and no one has been arrested for their murder.

Nevertheless, Kyron's case has gone on for several months without finding him or an arrest. TH is probably similar to casey Anthony or, as someone else said, Misty Cummings. Probably more like Josh Powell, IMO. Smarter, a bit than the people in the cases you have cited. I doubt that it has anything to do with the ability of LE or lack thereof. Just different circumstances and different players involved.

bbm

cluciano63 mentioned socio not psycho...lol ;)

I believe sociopath, psychopath and anti-social personality disorder, (conduct disorder in kids), are all pretty much the same thing - all personality disorders and they are either different degrees of the same thing or slightly different definitions that were in vogue at different times.
 
Most criminals confess or incriminate themselves in some way. At least that what a law professor I had in law school told me. He was a federal public defender for decades and said that the Miranda Warning was useless. No matter how many times he coached his clients on how to invoke when arrested (most being repeat offenders), they'd pretty much always talk and say something to get themselves in trouble. I think it's because criminals are either very dumb or sociopathic and thus thinking they are smarter than LE.

But, I believe TH has talked and given information to LE. I think she has given LE a lot to work with. I think she has incriminated herself and/or pointed the finger at herself, if reports are true, with strange statements, failing LDTs, inconsistencies, cell phone tracking, e-mail messages, and an overall off reaction to the disappearance of Kyron.

Also, I don't know that the cases you cited are too far apart from where we are in this case. EB did talk and helped LE find Zahra, or at least part of her, but no one has been arrested yet for her murder.
And in the case of the Skelton brothers in Ohio/Michigan, despite the fact that their dad has talked, their bodies have not been found and no one has been arrested for their murder.

Nevertheless, Kyron's case has gone on for several months without finding him or an arrest. TH is probably similar to casey Anthony or, as someone else said, Misty Cummings. Probably more like Josh Powell, IMO. Smarter, a bit than the people in the cases you have cited. I doubt that it has anything to do with the ability of LE or lack thereof. Just different circumstances and different players involved.



I believe sociopath, psychopath and anti-social personality disorder, (conduct disorder in kids), are all pretty much the same thing - all personality disorders and they are either different degrees of the same thing or slightly different definitions that were in vogue at different times.

I agree that they are similar but, they are two seperate diagnosis.
 
Gitana1...first off. I want to thank you for your time, insight and observation in regards to this case. Very kind of you to give your time. What I am having a problem with is this....what's true ,factual, solid, substantiated , confirmed evidence is there really that this was premeditated by TH. Many here have gathered their many wonderful thoughts, opinions...for or against TH...Personally, I'm not for anyone and I absolutely have my doubts about everyone right now until confirmed otherwise. As an attorney would this hold up for you if you were prosecuting Teri ? If you'd like not to answer, I appreciate and admire that as well. Thank you!
 
I agree that they are similar but, they are two seperate diagnosis.

Perhaps, but it was more of an 'aside' and not an integral part of my post (that I didn't think she was escaping prosecution due to abnormal reactions) so it's all good. :)
 
I've been following all of the recent, horrible cases...from Zahra, to the two women and the child in Ohio a few weeks ago, to the three little boys in Ohio/Michigan breaking right now...and one thing I can't help but notice is that LE has been able to get information out of the suspects/POI's in all three of those cases...I can't help but wonder how LE interogated Terri and how it is that she was able to basically blow them off for the three weeks plus until she got an attorney...

I know, lots of people will say it is because she is a sociopath and they don't have normal reactions, etc...
But I see her an alcoholic housewife with a personality disorder who did not have a great deal of contact/experience in dealing with law enforcement, especially at levels such as FBI, etc...and it just shocks me that she could be confronted with changing stories, failed LD's, and still never give up a thing that has led to Kyron or an arrest...

I hear you, really I do. But, it happens like Scott P, Powell case, Casey etc...oh and of course, little Misty with her Grade 5 or 6th grade education who can barely read, write & then those math skills she possesses lol (bad joke). Point is, although it boggles the mind for sure, all LE etc. can do is ask questions, nothing else is allowed. I normal person would be so scared during a few questionings just hold up their wrists (shivering, shaking & admit it). I think? :dance:
 
I agree that they are similar but, they are two seperate diagnosis.

Not necessarily. Some experts differentiate between the two. Others state that the term psychopath was replaced over time by most with sociopath and then replaced with anti-social personality disorder.

Gitana1...first off. I want to thank you for your time, insight and observation in regards to this case. Very kind of you to give your time. What I am having a problem with is this....what's true ,factual, solid, substantiated , confirmed evidence is there really that this was premeditated by TH. Many here have gathered their many wonderful thoughts, opinions...for or against TH...Personally, I'm not for anyone and I absolutely have my doubts about everyone right now until confirmed otherwise. As an attorney would this hold up for you if you were prosecuting Teri ? If you'd like not to answer, I appreciate and admire that as well. Thank you!

You're welcome! I don't now that there is any solid evidence for premeditation. None has been released yet by LE. I am assuming, though, that they likely have some. Like purposefully false statements regarding a non-existent doctor's appointment, made in an effort to create confusion.

I assume that because premeditation can occur moments before a murder. It doesn't have to be days or weeks before. Also, based on the way Kyron disappeared, it is likely that TH, assuming she did it, planned it, because lack of premeditation would be a scenario like voluntary manslaughter, kind of like when someone suddenly "loses it" and kills someone in a sudden rage. I believe it is logical to assume that TH took Kyron away from school before killing him, making sure he sort of was sneaked away, rather than suddenly freaking out and butchering him on the grounds of the school, later having to take a dead body out of the school, rather than a live kid. So, if she took him from the school after pretending to drop him off, and then killed him, that would necessitate premeditation.

Also, my sense from reports, TH's statements, sexting, etc., (kind of assessing her personality type) is that her desire to get rid of Kyron was something that built up in TH, due to resentment of Kyron, DY or Kaine. Thus, in such a scenario, she would finally decide that Kyron had to go, that that would be how her problems could be solved. That sort of points to premeditation as well.

I don't think e-mails saying TH hated or resented Kyron would really evidence premeditation. But e-mails that stated she wanted to get rid of him might. But I really think any evidence of premeditation would be things like mentioning a non-existent appointment to confuse or buy time, and also perhaps trying to switch cars, something like that.

We don't know what evidence there actually is, though, so it's all pretty much speculation at this point. Of course my belief that this was premeditated could not occur if not for my belief that TH is guilty of harming Kyron. And my reasons for that is a whole other topic!
 
I would definitely go with the premeditation theory. For the most part because of TH as far as i know being the only one to mention or witness Kyron's ? seizures! If Desiree being Kyron's biological mother, and having him on access visits, wouldn't any stepmother let the bio mother know about these so called episodes that Kyron was supposedly having? Obviously TH thought it important enough to make a doctors appnt. for Kyron, which as far as i'm concerned is all BS! Then why would she think it of no consequence to let Desiree know, that just does not add up. I think this was all part of her scheming something.
If TH was telling any truths at all, then doesn't she know that if a person is telling the truth their story doesn't change, but with a liar their story does change.
I think she was plotting this out for a while.
 

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