EVIDENCE - Pro and Con

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Syttende said:
-snipped by me for brevity-

What I keep coming back to in this case is motive. Before DNA evidence ever existed in all its glory, motive was more of a concern in proving who committed a crime. Who had reason to kill Heather? Obviously, TM and SM have very, very strong motive. That's something you simply can't argue with. No one else in the world had as much reason to kill Heather as these two did.

SM is a liar and not just an accomplice to the crimes committed, but an active player. TM is psycho, sure, but SM is a piece of work. To lie about so many phone calls and pretend payphones don't even exist... even having an affair as a married man with kids, while relatively common, is pretty damning to me. He's obviously manipulative and deceptive. I don't see why TM is often portrayed here as the 'main' player in these crimes who just dragged poor SM along. He lured HE to PTL to kill her! He did that, NOT TM.
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BBM

Respectfully totally disagree. Motive does not prove guilt.

Now lying, that's another thing. :twocents:
 
Madeleine74 said:
I'm going to wait until the evidence comes out at trial. I know there's more evidence and facts than what we, the public, know about this crime. It doesn't seem like there was any disturbance at HE's apartment and whatever investigators have, they don't seem to consider that a crime scene. The wording of their arrest warrant and subsequent communiques may have been strange -- maybe since they can't pin down exactly where HE was actually murdered and she was taken from PTL they consider the last known spot (PTL) to be the crime scene so they refer to that spot since they don't have anywhere else to point to.
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Yeah... I have to assume that they know she drove to PTL and just haven't told us why yet. They've always sounded confident about that, and it fits with the rest of the timeline (except of course for those last couple minutes that nobody can figure out...).
 
OkieGranny said:
IIRC, it was "We believe she was killed at PTL," and not "Evidence shows she was killed at PTL," wasn't it? I don't see why the prosecution would be forced to stick to that theory, if info subsequently turned up that indicated other possibilities. The defense might try to make something of it but, hey, theories change as information develops. Happens all the time, just check the Heather threads here.

How long has it been since anyone official said they think Heather was killed at PTL? It could be that their working theory has changed since the gag order came down, and we just don't know it because they haven't been allowed to tell anyone.
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It's in the language of the murder warrants: (emphasis mine)

"...on or about December 18, 2013 at the address of Peachtree Boat Landing...did... murder Heather Elvis with malice forethought. Based on the above facts, there is probable cause..."
http://www.myhorrynews.com/collection_aa3b86c4-9d83-11e3-a412-001a4bcf6878.html?mode=nogs
http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.town...-11e3-a5c5-001a4bcf6878/530b928062733.pdf.pdf

I don't know how the state can say at trial it would like to consider another crime scene.
 
I have a question for you guys - when SM called HE at 1:36am, did she rush out to meet him or wait (just hesitant to go there?). If she waited, how long did she wait and why would she go if she couldn't call him back on the pay phone or his cell - just to go looking for him, to talk to him?
 
tarheelslim said:
Yeah... I have to assume that they know she drove to PTL and just haven't told us why yet. They've always sounded confident about that, and it fits with the rest of the timeline (except of course for those last couple minutes that nobody can figure out...).
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I think we can infer the "why" with some level of confidence. Obviously she thought she was meeting up with SM there. Assuming she got to PTL on her own steam, driving her own car, with her phone in her possession, as soon as she arrived she called SM's cell phone 3x in a row.

I know crafting creative scenarios on various things that could have happened other than the obvious one is a fun exercise, but this just seems the most straightforward path to how things went down. I don't claim to know or even have a theory around what happened after Heather met up with the human(s) in the black truck, and I'll never know unless they spill the beans about it, which I'm sure they won't. In the end she met her doom, was murdered, and was disposed somewhere.

The Solicitor's office either has enough evidence (circumstantial though it may be) to believe they are able to prove their case to a jury of 12 or they don't. They seem to think they do have enough as the case is still on the docket and proceeding forward.
 
New2MB said:
Anyone remember if that was stated back when they also said something about the phone data going until 6am? That could explain why they said it with some certainty- could be there is more footage to or from PTL that fit into that timeline, giving more than the 3 min we see now.
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Or - if that were the case: WHAT IF they showed the video footage knowing it would be enough to make their point -- but they actually have MORE video later - that could indicate they went back at a later time?

So let's say SM was with Heather and what ever happened left Heather dead. SM calls TM from PTL - says OMG she's dead - come get me. TM flies to the landing and picks him up. At this point Heather is left there. They get home - talk about it - and decide they need to go back and do something with her body. -- Wouldn't that add up to her 'being murdered there' and being 'kidnapped' from there if LE thought Heather could have died in the car on the way to or once at PTL?

How much time did they have before Heather was reported missing and/or Heathers car was found?
 
South Carolina Department of Transportation has traffic camera in Myrtle Beach. I have to hope they have some information from these.


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Does anyone know where LE concentrated their searches? Were they all around the PTL area? If not, then they must think they killed her at PTL and then disposed of her somewhere else. Or, were the searches concentrated along the waterway, which would mean they think they put her in the water?
 
Madeleine74 said:
I think we can infer the "why" with some level of confidence. Obviously she thought she was meeting up with SM there. Assuming she got to PTL on her own steam, driving her own car, with her phone in her possession, as soon as she arrived she called SM's cell phone 3x in a row.

I know crafting creative scenarios on various things that could have happened other than the obvious one is a fun exercise, but this just seems the most straightforward path to how things went down. I don't claim to know or even have a theory around what happened after Heather met up with the human(s) in the black truck, and I'll never know unless they spill the beans about it, which I'm sure they won't. In the end she met her doom, was murdered, and was disposed somewhere.

The Solicitor's office either has enough evidence (circumstantial though it may be) to believe they are able to prove their case to a jury of 12 or they don't. They seem to think they do have enough as the case is still on the docket and proceeding forward.
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I would not presume why others discuss the case because I have no idea, but for my own part, I'm interested in how a girl came to be murdered as a result of answering her phone one early morning, and on a timeline that has problems when I apply some basic logic.

And from what I've seen in police documents and heard in their public remarks to the media, not even the police can say they "know" what happened to this girl. They've said they have a circumstantial case, and according to what they've released, it involves a chain of correlative events and relationships and ringing phones and traveling vehicles, and a fair amount of theory.

So I'm willing to go out on a limb and say boldly (again) that the reason the police have designated PTL as the murder scene is because it's the only place on the timeline where they can reasonably hope to place all parties at a particular location, during a period when the victim's phone activity abruptly stopped, and where her car was found the next day without her in it. I submit then that the PTL murder scene theory is just that - a theoretical claim that fits a timeline preferred (and frankly needed) by LE, because LE simply does not know for sure who was using phones or driving cars, and also doesn't at all know what happened at that landing or thereafter.

Given the info currently available, I think it's reasonable that this may turn out to be a matter of one theory is as good as another. JMO
 
Madeleine74 said:
I think we can infer the "why" with some level of confidence. Obviously she thought she was meeting up with SM there. Assuming she got to PTL on her own steam, driving her own car, with her phone in her possession, as soon as she arrived she called SM's cell phone 3x in a row.

I know crafting creative scenarios on various things that could have happened other than the obvious one is a fun exercise, but this just seems the most straightforward path to how things went down. I don't claim to know or even have a theory around what happened after Heather met up with the human(s) in the black truck, and I'll never know unless they spill the beans about it, which I'm sure they won't. In the end she met her doom, was murdered, and was disposed somewhere.

The Solicitor's office either has enough evidence (circumstantial though it may be) to believe they are able to prove their case to a jury of 12 or they don't. They seem to think they do have enough as the case is still on the docket and proceeding forward.
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Indeed the straightforward scenario the state is presenting could have happened and I think it's possible something was done to her at PTL in a short amount of time and they were unable to detect anything even DNA in their truck. I think at this point we are looking for more ideas for substantiation existing on that scenario or others that may have happened. I am sure LE has done a thorough job but that won't stop my mind from trying to make pieces fit together or find more pieces. People never stop being a fascination to me. I strongly think the Ms were keeping tabs on Heather and for some reason, maybe the roomy being out of town and something fueling their (TMs) unrequited need to harm her, hey, maybe just the fact that she was at apt alone and they felt this would be an opportune night, fed TMs excitement and they killed her and in their over zealousness left a pot of circumstantial evidence. Also TM seemed to still be on that high that interfered with her logic when posting the stuff she did on social media. She hasn't been arrested before so she must manage to quell her outlandishness well enough usually. But looks like she went off the deep end for a while anyway.

One thing I have noticed about people is that there are those (statistically men) who kill gf, spouses leaving them, employers who have fired them, co workers promoted over them, and sometimes family members or innocent people who just happen to be there. I have often thought this may be due in part to their identity being crumbled, a belief of who they are or need to be to have value, being destroyed in their eyes and not being able to move on from it. I think this may have been the case with TM, and she turned into a murderer. Plus she has that psychological making of someone who goes emotionally overboard- your b**** is drawing his last breath, handcuffing hubby to the bed, going to work with him, etc.

adding people kill spouse, gf when she gets new man, or when they may loose child custody- see those in the new fairly often these days, they just shoot everybody in the house, related to them or not, and go to another house down the street to kill some more

SM could be one of those covert people who will do whatever with little conscience as long as they don't think they will be caught and TM, overt in her devilishness and goes by her own rules no matter who is watching, thinking she's above and smarter than the rest of us, and Heather fooled and got the best of her.
 
Why did HE go meet SM?? Wasn't it said they hadn't been in touch since 11/5 before that? If she was all that anxious to see him, why not have him come over to her place? And why did she wait from the 1:36am phone call until 3am (?) to go to PTL? I obviously am not as caught up as I thought I was and you guys are rocking this case. So young, jealous, and on TM's part, just crazy!
 
I agree it's hard to understand what happened and particularly so when we don't have the information that LE and the Solicitor's office has.

Could a crime have happened one way? Sure. Could a crime have happened a different way? Sure. Could everyone have it wrong as to what exactly happened, by which spouse, and what exact minute, and where the killing actually occurred? Sure. At this point, and without more information from the state, anything could be the right story.

Whoever did the deed, SM did not protect Heather from harm and he may have been very actively and willingly involved in whatever went down. If it was a situation like his wife had a gun and he was threatened by her to go along with it, then he'd have a legal get-out-of-prosecution card because a crime committed under duress or by threat means the person under the threat did not form intent and did not willingly act. He sat in jail for nearly a year, which makes me think his life was not in danger at the time of the murder.

What if it was SM that killed HE but his wife helped plan it? She'd still be guilty under the law. What about if it was TM who killed HE but SM helped plan it? He'd still be guilty under the law. It doesn't matter who did the deed if both were aware of it and acted in concert, even if only one of them went to meet HE. If there was a plan to kill and both knew and were 'in' on the plan, both are considered guilty. If only one of them planned this, knew about it, did the deed then why would the other person be willing to sit in jail all that time? Wouldn't the one who had nothing to do with it at least try to get out and be with their children?
 
Madeleine74 said:
I agree it's hard to understand what happened and particularly so when we don't have the information that LE and the Solicitor's office has.

Could a crime have happened one way? Sure. Could a crime have happened a different way? Sure. Could everyone have it wrong as to what exactly happened, by which spouse, and what exact minute, and where the killing actually occurred? Sure. At this point, and without more information from the state, anything could be the right story.

Whoever did the deed, SM did not protect Heather from harm and he may have been very actively and willingly involved in whatever went down. If it was a situation like his wife had a gun and he was threatened by her to go along with it, then he'd have a legal get-out-of-prosecution card because a crime committed under duress or by threat means the person under the threat did not form intent and did not willingly act. He sat in jail for nearly a year, which makes me think his life was not in danger at the time of the murder.

What if it was SM that killed HE but his wife helped plan it? She'd still be guilty under the law. What about if it was TM who killed HE but SM helped plan it? He'd still be guilty under the law. It doesn't matter who did the deed if both were aware of it and acted in concert, even if only one of them went to meet HE. If there was a plan to kill and both knew and were 'in' on the plan, both are considered guilty. If only one of them planned this, knew about it, did the deed then why would the other person be willing to sit in jail all that time? Wouldn't the one who had nothing to do with it at least try to get out and be with their children?
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In Texas, we call this the 'law of parties.' A person doesn't even have to plan or participate- at all. Just knowing it will happen and failure to do anything to prevent it carries the same charge as the actual perpetrator.

We're known by the company we keep. moo




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
hoppy said:
Or - if that were the case: WHAT IF they showed the video footage knowing it would be enough to make their point -- but they actually have MORE video later - that could indicate they went back at a later time?

So let's say SM was with Heather and what ever happened left Heather dead. SM calls TM from PTL - says OMG she's dead - come get me. TM flies to the landing and picks him up. At this point Heather is left there. They get home - talk about it - and decide they need to go back and do something with her body. -- Wouldn't that add up to her 'being murdered there' and being 'kidnapped' from there if LE thought Heather could have died in the car on the way to or once at PTL?

How much time did they have before Heather was reported missing and/or Heathers car was found?
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BBM, this is what I'm thinking may have happened. The trip from the M's home was to pick someone up.

I think Heather was reported missing late in the afternoon or early evening of December 19. So from early morning on the 18th until late afternoon on the 19th is the time they had to do something. Please correct me if my time line is wrong.
 
I think that if SM committed the murder, TM would have thrown him under the bus a long time ago. If it was the other way around and TM committed the murder, SM was willing to sit in jail because he felt as though, he brought all of this on and caused TM to do the crime. He may feel guilty of what happened because of the affair and that because of the famous phone call that night that put the wheels in motion for disaster that fateful night.
 
Dixie E said:
I think that if SM committed the murder, TM would have thrown him under the bus a long time ago. If it was the other way around and TM committed the murder, SM was willing to sit in jail because he felt as though, he brought all of this on and caused TM to do the crime. He may feel guilty of what happened because of the affair and that because of the famous phone call that night that put the wheels in motion for disaster that fateful night.
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We know he feels guilt that this is his fault (or pretends he does) because of his texts from the first bond hearing
 
Is it possible LE bugged their houses/vehicles before they were released?
 
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