Evidence subject to Frye - *UPDATED* 2011.05.09 (ATTN: ALL ORDERS IN!)

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Thanks for clearing that up for me. I'm a chemist, not a lawyer. :)
If I'm understanding correctly, the reliability/accuracy of the air sample testing/analysis is not in question... the question is whether or not this type of information has been used as evidence in a trial (have they "set the precedent")??



And here's where I "piggy-back" (or in our case, doggie-back with my "bullmation" to DogMom3JoeandWillie)...... as a fellow scientist to her, I'm wondering if the Esquireres will attempt to claim that the basic scientific principles CHANGE when applied to, oh say, elemental compounds found in organic mixtures say C8-H10-N4-O2 in a mug vs those in other states say C8-H10-N4-O2 in a cup? I do believe that this is where the logic of science is going to hit the fantasy world in the face and common sense is going to prevail and IF the state chooses to even bring in these results, it's a GO! (and let WHATEVER defense expert they can pro bono go at them!)




PS: Get your C8-H10-N4-O2 where the world runs on Dunkin Donuts!
 
And here's where I "piggy-back" (or in our case, doggie-back with my "bullmation" to DogMom3JoeandWillie)...... as a fellow scientist to her, I'm wondering if the Esquireres will attempt to claim that the basic scientific principles CHANGE when applied to, oh say, elemental compounds found in organic mixtures say C8-H10-N4-O2 in a mug vs those in other states say C8-H10-N4-O2 in a cup? I do believe that this is where the logic of science is going to hit the fantasy world in the face and common sense is going to prevail and IF the state chooses to even bring in these results, it's a GO! (and let WHATEVER defense expert they can pro bono go at them!)





PS: Get your C8-H10-N4-O2 where the world runs on Dunkin Donuts!


Heh heh, ah.....ahem....What did you just say?
 
LOL COFFEE is COFFEE is COFFEE......and testing for it will prove that no matter WHAT container it's in!


I HATE WHEN I FOR:banghead:GET MY PUNCH LINE!
 
LOL COFFEE is COFFEE is COFFEE......and testing for it will prove that no matter WHAT container it's in!


I HATE WHEN I FOR:banghead:GET MY PUNCH LINE!

:woohoo: Thanks so much - got it. English major here!
 
Per JB at today's hearing the defense will be asking for a Frye hearing re the Oak Ridge Body Farm's air sampling of the trunk.
 
Per JB at today's hearing the defense will be asking for a Frye hearing re the Oak Ridge Body Farm's air sampling of the trunk.

First let me say, I love new technology, chances are slim this website would exist without it. New technology rocks.

Since the use of an air sample in the courtroom is unprecedented, at least to my limited knowledge, I am fairly sure Judge P will grant the defense a Frye hearing should they ask.

I have heard that JA prosecuted and won a murder case, in which DNA was used for the first time for a murder case in Florida. I do not doubt this. I have a couple of quick questions about this fact though. One, was this the first murder case in the U. S. that had used DNA? Two, was there other cases (rape, assault, paternity etc), in which DNA was used previous to JA using DNA in his murder case? If DNA had been used in other states for murder cases, or if DNA had been used in criminal cases that were not for murder, before JA used DNA in his Florida murder case, then the precedent had already been set. Although it is impressive that JA was able to get the DNA in for the first time in a Florida murder case, I doubt that it was the first case using DNA ever anywhere in the U.S.

In regards to the air sample; I do not think there has been any precedent set anywhere yet. If there has not been any cases ever, where an air sample has been used, I do not think the best place to try a totally untested (in the courtroom) procedure is a high profile case like this one. I do think in the early days of DNA there were many appeals granted simply because DNA was new. I simply do not think a situation where a person’s life hangs in the balance is an ideal testing ground for the legality of new technology. Yes, there has to be a first time for it, I just do not think Judge P. will think this is the right case for a test. I think this because Judge P has had only a couple of appeals granted in the numerous cases he has presided over the years.

I think that even if the air sample is allowed in, that LKB will be able to dispute the findings so strongly that the jury will have reasonable doubt about the results of the air sample testing. I do not know if the entomologist reports will be addressed at the Frye hearing, but if they are brought into court, I think LKB will also be able to dispute the findings so strongly that the jury will have reasonable doubt about the results. In other words, I think the Adipocere-like substance is not Adipocere, the butyric acid found its way to the carpet from a decomp event from something other than human origin, the chloroform found was in amounts way too high to be from a decomposing body, and the single hair with decomp, well, from the thesis by the student who did his testing at one of the body farms, the death ring (band) did not form on any of his test subjects hair for a minimum of 89 days after death. Which if LKB is successful in raising doubt to each of these, and the simple fact that there was no substantial human decomposition in the trunk at all, that will leave the prosecution with only the infamous odor. How difficult will it be for LKB to raise doubts about the odor, when there was only a trace of possible human decomp in the trunk, and there was a white garbage bag filled with maggots eating something that was decomposing. How big of a leap would it be for the jury to make to think that the odor everyone smelled was coming from the garbage bag, rather than from the traces of possible decomp, especially if LKB had already have brought reasonable doubt to those items?

I know I have not read about, or heard about every single case in America, that is not possible even with todays modern technology. But, I have never, ever heard of anyone being convicted of premeditated murder because someone, or several someones thought they smelled a decomposing body. If a Frye hearing is to try to introduce unprecedented methods for use in court, will GA, CA, LA, SB, YM, etc all have their noses tested at a Frye hearing to see if what they thought they smelled was can be admitted as evidence?

I believe at one point early on, the SA believed Caylee had been in that trunk. I believe LE thoroughly investigated that possibility. I believe after the investigation into the trunk had been completed that the SA has come to the conclusion that Caylee had not been in the trunk, and I believe this because JA made no mention of the trunk when he gave his powerful scenario depicting the use of duct tape during the DP hearing. I believe it is media frenzy that is making such a big deal out of the smell of death, and downplaying the white trash bag. I do not think the prosecution is going to bring the trunk into the trial. So, when, at trial JA or LDB brings the trunk in at trial, I will be eating a big serving of humble pie LOL. All of the above is just speculation or opinion of what I think may happen at the Frye hearing, if there is one, and or what may happen at trial
 
First let me say, I love new technology, chances are slim this website would exist without it. New technology rocks. This site isn't about technology...it's about discussion. Internet technology is an entirely different animal.

Since the use of an air sample in the courtroom is unprecedented, at least to my limited knowledge, I am fairly sure Judge P will grant the defense a Frye hearing should they ask. I expect that to be the case.

I have heard that JA prosecuted and won a murder case, in which DNA was used for the first time for a murder case in Florida. I do not doubt this. I have a couple of quick questions about this fact though. One, was this the first murder case in the U. S. that had used DNA? Two, was there other cases (rape, assault, paternity etc), in which DNA was used previous to JA using DNA in his murder case? If DNA had been used in other states for murder cases, or if DNA had been used in criminal cases that were not for murder, before JA used DNA in his Florida murder case, then the precedent had already been set. Although it is impressive that JA was able to get the DNA in for the first time in a Florida murder case, I doubt that it was the first case using DNA ever anywhere in the U.S. Well, there's a first time for everything.....and if not prior to this case...then perhaps it will be due to this case.

In regards to the air sample; I do not think there has been any precedent set anywhere yet. If there has not been any cases ever, where an air sample has been used, I do not think the best place to try a totally untested (in the courtroom) procedure is a high profile case like this one. The Frye hearing will determine that right? I do think in the early days of DNA there were many appeals granted simply because DNA was new. I simply do not think a situation where a person’s life hangs in the balance is an ideal testing ground for the legality of new technology. If "new" technology is to be used then that should be determined based upon evidence presented during the Frye hearing, and not becasue of any implied or assumed "celebrity"status of the client as that would demonstrate a bias.. Yes, there has to be a first time for it, I just do not think Judge P. will think this is the right case for a test. I think this because Judge P has had only a couple of appeals granted in the numerous cases he has presided over the years. And his records stand...based upon his actions as a Judge....and not the opinion of others right?
I think that even if the air sample is allowed in, that LKB will be able to dispute the findings so strongly that the jury will have reasonable doubt about the results of the air sample testing. There is room for rhetoric from both sides. I do not know if the entomologist reports will be addressed at the Frye hearing, but if they are brought into court, I think LKB will also be able to dispute the findings so strongly that the jury will have reasonable doubt about the results. In other words, I think the Adipocere-like substance is not Adipocere, the butyric acid found its way to the carpet from a decomp event from something other than human origin, the chloroform found was in amounts way too high to be from a decomposing body, and the single hair with decomp, well, from the thesis by the student who did his testing at one of the body farms, the death ring (band) did not form on any of his test subjects hair for a minimum of 89 days after death. Where there is ying...there is yang and neither side should be discounted. Which if LKB is successful in raising doubt to each of these, and the simple fact that there was no substantial human decomposition in the trunk at all, that will leave the prosecution with only the infamous odor. How difficult will it be for LKB to raise doubts about the odor, when there was only a trace of possible human decomp in the trunk, and there was a white garbage bag filled with maggots eating something that was decomposing. How big of a leap would it be for the jury to make to think that the odor everyone smelled was coming from the garbage bag, rather than from the traces of possible decomp, especially if LKB had already have brought reasonable doubt to those items? How big a leap will it be to discount both Cindy and George in their specific (excited utterance) description of decompositional odor???
I know I have not read about, or heard about every single case in America, that is not possible even with todays modern technology. But, I have never, ever heard of anyone being convicted of premeditated murder because someone, or several someones thought they smelled a decomposing body. If a Frye hearing is to try to introduce unprecedented methods for use in court, will GA, CA, LA, SB, YM, etc all have their noses tested at a Frye hearing to see if what they thought they smelled was can be admitted as evidence? It's all about interpretation.

I believe at one point early on, the SA believed Caylee had been in that trunk. I believe LE thoroughly investigated that possibility. I believe after the investigation into the trunk had been completed that the SA has come to the conclusion that Caylee had not been in the trunk, and I believe this because JA made no mention of the trunk when he gave his powerful scenario depicting the use of duct tape during the DP hearing. I believe it is media frenzy that is making such a big deal out of the smell of death, and downplaying the white trash bag. Based upon Andrea's selective soundbites in which to focus upon or her actual examination of evidence released thus far? I do not think the prosecution is going to bring the trunk into the trial. Based upon.........?So, when, at trial JA or LDB brings the trunk in at trial, I will be eating a big serving of humble pie LOL. All of the above is just speculation or opinion of what I think may happen at the Frye hearing, if there is one, and or what may happen at trial

And what the prosecution has already anticipated and factored into their "strategy"?......
 
I have read the Dr Vass report several times. I believe that Le had the samples sent to Dr Vass. Not sure who approved an air sample test. I am not seeing anything in that air sample test that confirms it was human decompostion. There are certainly things that are consistent with human decomp, but also consistent with animal decomp. The human signature compounds were man made compounds and not natural human compounds.

I do not believe that Sa will bring this air sample into play. Just because Le sends something out to be tested, does not mean that Sa is going to use it. I am sure they were hoping to find something more significant like decomp fluid.

Asking for Ga grand jury testimony raises a flag for me. He must have changed his story or they misinterpreted him from the start. They need him to say that smell was human decomp. Le did not act like it was the smell of human decomp from the start. They did not secure the car.

Ja said in the recent motion that there was more discovery at the body farm that has not been released because they have not sent it. I think he may be using that to delay discovery, but I do not think he will use air sample at Frye. Moo

They didn't secure the car, probably, because they were lied to about the situation going on. They may have made the mistake of believing a mother was trying to find her child.
 
They didn't secure the car, probably, because they were lied to about the situation going on. They may have made the mistake of believing a mother was trying to find her child.

I'll finish the rest of that sentence for you gladly HF - "and despite a slight oversight in time, the trunk still smelled overwhelmingly of decomp and still will next year during the trial." :innocent:
 
I read the thesis by the student re: the death band and did some more searching. I had posted this some time ago and it is a very interesting case.

In this case a man was exonerated in 2005 in part by evidence involving a "death band."

http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/171.php

"The expert concluded, based on 20 years of research and expertise, that the hairs displayed “post-mortem root banding,” a hallmark of decomposition that only occurs while hairs are attached to a corpse that has been dead for at least 8 hours, if not days or weeks. "

I think the States experts will be up to speed on new technology and for sure they will give LKB a run for her money. As for the decomposition odour, let the jury smell the trunk, I think the odour will still be there.
 
I have read the Dr Vass report several times. I believe that Le had the samples sent to Dr Vass. Not sure who approved an air sample test. I am not seeing anything in that air sample test that confirms it was human decompostion. There are certainly things that are consistent with human decomp, but also consistent with animal decomp. The human signature compounds were man made compounds and not natural human compounds.

I do not believe that Sa will bring this air sample into play. Just because Le sends something out to be tested, does not mean that Sa is going to use it. I am sure they were hoping to find something more significant like decomp fluid.

Asking for Ga grand jury testimony raises a flag for me. He must have changed his story or they misinterpreted him from the start. They need him to say that smell was human decomp. Le did not act like it was the smell of human decomp from the start. They did not secure the car. Ja said in the recent motion that there was more discovery at the body farm that has not been released because they have not sent it. I think he may be using that to delay discovery, but I do not think he will use air sample at Frye. Moo

response to the bold above......i have ponder on this a lot.....the question i have is.....maybe the A's wouldnt release the car to LE with out a search warrent......:waitasec:

LE was trying to find a missing child..... I know they had to of smelled that car....still....they had to take the mother to the last known places of the baby sitter, work ect.....(after they were lied to over and over) LE had what they needed to get a search warrent for the car.....

again....this is what i thought could of been the reason for the delay....:)

to stay on topic......im wondering about the air samples as well.....i hate that the defense use the words *junk science*..........even if they do i agree with what other posters have posted....there is so many other things that point to the smell in the car.......thank you all for posting about the science and law stuff :)
 
snipped for brevity:
I have heard that JA prosecuted and won a murder case, in which DNA was used for the first time for a murder case in Florida. I do not doubt this. I have a couple of quick questions about this fact though. One, was this the first murder case in the U. S. that had used DNA? Two, was there other cases (rape, assault, paternity etc), in which DNA was used previous to JA using DNA in his murder case? If DNA had been used in other states for murder cases, or if DNA had been used in criminal cases that were not for murder, before JA used DNA in his Florida murder case, then the precedent had already been set. Although it is impressive that JA was able to get the DNA in for the first time in a Florida murder case, I doubt that it was the first case using DNA ever anywhere in the U.S.
The precedent set was obtaining the first conviction in the United States using DNA.

The man was convicted of rape and assault. He was the first person ever to be convicted in the United States using a DNA test as evidence. In the six months prior to this case, scientific testimony about DNA had been allowed but a conviction wasn't had until Jeff Ashton's case.

This NY Times article gives a sense of how new DNA evidence was at the time (1988) and talks of JA's precedent setting case.

DNA 'Fingerprinting' Tests Becoming a Factor in Courts By KIRK JOHNSON


I guess you could say that although DNA had been admitted under Frye for 6 months prior to this case, Jeff Ashton was the first prosecutor in the US to make believers out of the jury.
 
This may have already been asked and answered, so I apologize for posting.

Would Casey's trunk still smell at the time of trial? Could the jury be allowed to smell it? If the odor was still intense I think this would speak volumes to the jury.
 
snipped for brevity:

The precedent set was obtaining the first conviction in the United States using DNA.

The man was convicted of rape and assault. He was the first person ever to be convicted in the United States using a DNA test as evidence. In the six months prior to this case, scientific testimony about DNA had been allowed but a conviction wasn't had until Jeff Ashton's case.

This NY Times article gives a sense of how new DNA evidence was at the time (1988) and talks of JA's precedent setting case.

DNA 'Fingerprinting' Tests Becoming a Factor in Courts By KIRK JOHNSON


I guess you could say that although DNA had been admitted under Frye for 6 months prior to this case, Jeff Ashton was the first prosecutor in the US to make believers out of the jury.

Thanks for the info. Very impressive that JA was able to be the first prosecutor to obtain a conviction using the then new technology of DNA. I was under the wrong impression that the conviction was for murder not rape. It seems to make much more sense to use new technology like DNA was, initially in trials that do not involve the DP. Simply to test the validity of the new technology against our laws. Once the new technology has proven in court to be a valuable source of evidence in the courtroom, then a SA would be able to cite precedents while arguing for the admission of this evidence to the judge in a murder case. Just my opinion of course. Thanks again for the link.
 
Thanks for the info. Very impressive that JA was able to be the first prosecutor to obtain a conviction using the then new technology of DNA. I was under the wrong impression that the conviction was for murder not rape. It seems to make much more sense to use new technology like DNA was, initially in trials that do not involve the DP. Simply to test the validity of the new technology against our laws. Once the new technology has proven in court to be a valuable source of evidence in the courtroom, then a SA would be able to cite precedents while arguing for the admission of this evidence to the judge in a murder case. Just my opinion of course. Thanks again for the link.

I agree and the article addresses this point. Until the new technology survives at the appellate level, I would be hesitant to use it in a DP case. On the other hand, the air tests would not be the only evidence of decomposition that convicts her. It will be used to support other evidence of decomposition so that a reversal on the grounds of it being new technology will be less likely.
 
response to the bold above......i have ponder on this a lot.....the question i have is.....maybe the A's wouldnt release the car to LE with out a search warrent......:waitasec:

LE was trying to find a missing child..... I know they had to of smelled that car....still....they had to take the mother to the last known places of the baby sitter, work ect.....(after they were lied to over and over) LE had what they needed to get a search warrent for the car.....

again....this is what i thought could of been the reason for the delay....:)

to stay on topic......im wondering about the air samples as well.....i hate that the defense use the words *junk science*..........even if they do i agree with what other posters have posted....there is so many other things that point to the smell in the car.......thank you all for posting about the science and law stuff :)
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5148679&postcount=40"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Myth Busters and Facts *LIST ONLY* NO DISCUSSION NO DISCUSSION[/ame][ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwU6B--gSG4"][/ame]
 
I think Arpad Vass and the results of his tests will hold up.

Vass has been through these kind of hearings before. Analyzing fatty acid levels in the soil under and around body remains to determine time of death was once new, but has become accepted science that has been key to many convictions. Included among the convictions is that of Thomas Huskey (aka 'Zoo Man') an infamous serial killer who made headlines because of his multiple personality defense.

Links to books about Arpad Vass and how his research was used in other cases. You can read about William Bass and Neal Haskell in these same books.


Corpse: Nature, Forensics, and the Struggle to Pinpoint Time of Death
http://books.google.com/books?id=4nXar-2NezEC&pg=PA230&lpg=PA230&dq=%22Thomas+Huskey%22+%22zoo+man%22+bass&source=bl&ots=sNr1_I2nS8&sig=SSM6Hqybin-RAGFGw7TSX8w0O1g&hl=en&ei=cozhS9zAM4nYNqPu4OwC&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CBYQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=%22Thomas%20Huskey%22%20%22zoo%20man%22%20bass&f=false

Death's Acre

http://books.google.com/books?id=MT...&resnum=1&ved=0CAoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
 
Jolyanna,
I believe the science will hold up in court, as well, and here is why. As many of you have stated this IS NOT NEW SCIENCE, not even a new application as such, they are just looking at different chemical compounds.

There is a Lab at the University of California at Irvine that has been doing this type of science since the late 1970's. The Professor who began the group won the Nobel prize in chemistry in 1995 for work he began in 1976.

The lab works with NASA and the NSF on all sorts of missions taking air samples and then running them through GC/MS to test for chemical compounds and trace gases in the atmosphere/air- basically Atmospheric research... looking at the effects of Bio-mass burning, ozone depletion, carbon emissions etc.

They have actually been doing the same thing with breath analysis and disease. It is NOT new, and a highly respected field and lab. The only difference with the Body Farm is the lab is a bit newer and the trace gases and chemicals they are looking at are different and for different reasons- that is all.

Here is a blurb from their webpage:

Whole air samples are collected on land, ships, and aircraft and are returned to our laboratory for analysis.

In order to determine "background" concentrations of selected trace gases, since 1978 we have been collecting air samples at surface locations every three months in Pacific regions from northern Alaska to southern New Zealand.

Since 1988 our research group has been involved in NASA and NSF sponsored airborne projects. The general motivation for these experiments is regional or global change.

to link go to the Roland-Blake group at UCI

I am aware of this because my husband graduated with his Phd in Atmospheric chemistry from this group in 2002, Don and Sherry were his Grad school advisers, this was his research lab.
 
OOPS! Sorry for double post! Can someone remove one for me?!:waitasec:
 
Jolyanna,
I believe the science will hold up in court, as well, and here is why. As many of you have stated this IS NOT NEW SCIENCE, not even a new application as such, they are just looking at different chemical compounds.

There is a Lab at the University of California at Irvine that has been doing this type of science since the late 1970's. The Professor who began the group won the Nobel prize in chemistry in 1995 for work he began in 1976.

The lab works with NASA and the NSF on all sorts of missions taking air samples and then running them through GC/MS to test for chemical compounds and trace gases in the atmosphere/air- basically Atmospheric research... looking at the effects of Bio-mass burning, ozone depletion, carbon emissions etc.

They have actually been doing the same thing with breath analysis and disease. It is NOT new, and a highly respected field and lab. The only difference with the Body Farm is the lab is a bit newer and the trace gases and chemicals they are looking at are different and for different reasons- that is all.

Here is a blurb from their webpage:

Whole air samples are collected on land, ships, and aircraft and are returned to our laboratory for analysis.

In order to determine "background" concentrations of selected trace gases, since 1978 we have been collecting air samples at surface locations every three months in Pacific regions from northern Alaska to southern New Zealand.

Since 1988 our research group has been involved in NASA and NSF sponsored airborne projects. The general motivation for these experiments is regional or global change.

to link go to the Roland-Blake group at UCI

I am aware of this because my husband graduated with his Phd in Atmospheric chemistry from this group in 2002, Don and Sherry were his Grad school advisers, this was his research lab.
It appears that the technology is generally accepted by the scientific community.
 
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