Evidence That is Incompatible With an Accident Theory

[logicalgirl]

Ynotdivein - it just occurred to me that you are looking for a concord here - an agreement of all that the duct tape was placed on Caylee before death. I don't think that will ever happen.

Do you know I have actually had people tell me they don't believe you Americans landed on the moon in '67? That it was a trumpted up conspiracy?

But the majority? The majority will see the evidence, plus the expert opinions of qualified professionals - and I believe they will agree. The disbelievers will come up with what - I want proof? You don't need absolute proof to find someone guilty. Evidence and thoughtful logic will do it.

 

[logicalgirl]

I recall that she did go there. Before the remains were removed. I remember seeing her in some news clips.

Not sure if they interviewed her or anything. Just that the media was there, filming everything, from the side lines, out of the way. And commenting on what they seen, who they seen, etc.

Yes, I actually remembered she had. And I particularly remember how tense and saddened her face looked that day.

 

[Bittiness39]

Sadly I don't know why we are debating this. It almost infuriates me. Which is prolly why so many people abandon the TOS. KC is guilty. Guilty. Just exactly where did Caylee vanish to? Where? Kronk? AH? Tony? Jesse? Please I know we are all here to discuss the evidence but my patience is like flipping gone. Sorry mods.

 

[logicalgirl]

Hey! I'll second that and a few
:clap::clap::clap::clap:

 

[ynotdivein]

Ynotdivein - it just occurred to me that you are looking for a concord here - an agreement of all that the duct tape was placed on Caylee before death. I don't think that will ever happen.

Do you know I have actually had people tell me they don't believe you Americans landed on the moon in '67? That it was a trumpted up conspiracy?

But the majority? The majority will see the evidence, plus the expert opinions of qualified professionals - and I believe they will agree. The disbelievers will come up with what - I want proof? You don't need absolute proof to find someone guilty. Evidence and thoughtful logic will do it.

logicalgirl i send you :blowkiss: and please know that I always appreciate your posts. Perhaps I've been playing devil's advocate too much in this thread, but to clarify: I seek no concord on the duct tape issue because I don't think we will ever know for sure. Personally, my current theory is that the duct tape was applied either during or shortly after Caylee's death but was not the main cause of death itself...

As for the moon landing--you've seen the video where Armstrong is bounding about and you can see the guywire, right? ropeller:

 

[CuriousTwo]

Do you know I have actually had people tell me they don't believe you Americans landed on the moon in '67? That it was a trumpted up conspiracy?

I am one who believes Elvis is alive and living on a deserted island, yet, I'm 100% convinced that KC and only KC is directly responsible for Caylee's death.

Sorry ... couldn't resist interjecting my dry sense of humor. :slap:

Carry on ....

 

[logicalgirl]

logicalgirl i send you :blowkiss: and please know that I always appreciate your posts. Perhaps I've been playing devil's advocate too much in this thread, but to clarify: I seek no concord on the duct tape issue because I don't think we will ever know for sure. Personally, my current theory is that the duct tape was applied either during or shortly after Caylee's death but was not the main cause of death itself...

As for the moon landing--you've seen the video where Armstrong is bounding about and you can see the guywire, right? ropeller:

Very funny - you just smashed one of my life's big thrills - LOL.

Yes, I knew we were talking along the same tracks - for me it was just sorting out what I thought, what the ME said and why and what other people think.

I don't need to be right - but Casey does need to be found guilty of murder.

 

[LiveLaughLuv]

Originally Posted by notthatsmart
I think there is a little confusion here. Reports from the medical examiners office may very well be different than the reports at the crime scene. How am I to know the hair was not placed in the paper bag first and then the skull and mandible? How do I know these items didn't move around during transportation? I am not sure I have seen a report from the crime scene saying the hair was under the skull. I know I have heard it was piled up around the skull.

Medical Examiners report
http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/images/06/19/6440.6475.pdf


The duct tape was clearly placed prior to decompostion, keeping the mandible in place. (page 3 second paragraph)

The skull was initally recieved in a separate paper bag with duct tape over the lower portion of the face, with the tape still attached to some of the skull hair. A large portion of the scalp hair was in a mat under the skull. The mandible was still in its approximate anatomic location in spite of complete skeletolization. ( see attached reports by Dr. Utz and Dr. Schultz) (page 8 under heading, skeletal remains).

Of course there is much more covered in this report. I just typed the aspects of what this conversation is referring to.


this gets my blood boiling all over again..:furious:

Because of the condition of the remains, no soft tissue left for testing, one cannot ascertain if the duct tape was the means of death, no drugs found due to not enough soft tissue to test. She purposefully left Caylee to decompose. Inmate Anthony could have given her location any time she wanted, instead, she will play the innocent victim, her child was not on her mind. Her partying proves that! Never trying to help find her child because she knew where she was the entire time. IMO...just outrageous!

Poor Caylee, eaten and scattered by the animals that infested that swamp. Also shows the vegetation was growing through Caylee's remains, roots growing through her hair, blanket, how much more is needed? What loving, caring, devoted mother would do this??? None, IMO...this truly shows the black heart, the evilness, the rage this "good" mom felt...outrageous! :banghead:

 

[nort]

nort, whether or not it was applied to her face tightly enough to suffocate her, it was certainly applied with enough force that it adhered to the hair on both sides of her head. Dr. G's statement does not indicate that the tape was still adhering to the skull itself nor to any fleshly remains, but that it was adhered to the hair mat that was left after Caylee's scalp decomposed and the hair fell down around the skull. Whatever the logistics, that tape was adhered/tangled tightly enough with the hair that despite flooding and animal activity, the mandible remained near to its normal placement as to the skull.

gotcha thanks.....

 

[miss plum]

(respectfully snipped)
Poor Caylee, eaten and scattered by the animals that infested that swamp. Also shows the vegetation was growing through Caylee's remains, roots growing through her hair, blanket, how much more is needed? What loving, caring, devoted mother would do this??? None, IMO...this truly shows the black heart, the evilness, the rage this "good" mom felt...outrageous! :banghead:

Postmarked Oct 21, 08

Page 1"....In order to have life we must take our old lives to that we may be reborn, check the light is clearly shining at the end of the tunnel, but how long is this tunnel. I’m not the biggest fan of overly dark places. Scary things hide in the dark. Especially bugs, spiders, gross!...."

(with thanks to headndownstream for transcribing, you deserve a medal.)

 

[ZsaZsa]

Where does it say it rolled out? Rk made it clear that it did not roll out and did not fall out. He just simply picked up the bag with his stick. Moo

Here is what he reported.
http://www.wftv.com/news/18253901/detail.html

 

[ZsaZsa]

I respectfully disagree. It is open to challenge and expert opinion. Most Dr's welcome a second opinion. Other Dr's will be able to view the pictures and make their determinations. She is also reporting from the office not the crime scene. The mandible could not have fallen to the bottom of the container it was in, because it was sitting on the ground with no containor. I am confused where you are getting your information. I believe again this is just a matter of interpretation of the docs. I am all for the truth here and it does not mean it will fit the defenses soddi theory. IMO

The skull was inside the bag(s) and you do not know what position the skull was in before it tumbled out. When RK prodded the bag the skull fell out. That is documented if you care to look it up.

Read JoyPath post #332- 'Factoring in the issues of temperature in June,the musculature,ligamentous decomposition would have been rapid and the mandible should have 'dropped' quickly NO MATTER what position the body was entombed. Thus, an external mechanical means provided a support for the internal structures'.
The DUCT tape held the mandible in place.

Regarding whether other experts can challenge Dr Garavaglia's post mortem report as to the presence of duct tape holding the mandible - what are they going to dispute- that the skull was not found as she documented? She stated meticulously what she saw. It is what is is, no expert can come along and say anything different- photos document the position of the mandible and the duct tape holding it in place.

 

[Baznme]

Surely the Medical Examiner attended the crime scene also.

She was. There is footage of her arriving and walking to the crime scene along with other Law Enforcement personnel.

 

[Baznme]

The skull was inside the bag(s) and you do not know what position the skull was in before it tumbled out. When RK prodded the bag the skull fell out. That is documented if you care to look it up.

Read JoyPath post #332- 'Factoring in the issues of temperature in June,the musculature,ligamentous decomposition would have been rapid and the mandible should have 'dropped' quickly NO MATTER what position the body was entombed. Thus, an external mechanical means provided a support for the internal structures'.
The DUCT tape held the mandible in place.

Regarding whether other experts can challenge Dr Garavaglia's post mortem report as to the presence of duct tape holding the mandible - what are they going to dispute- that the skull was not found as she documented? She stated meticulously what she saw. It is what is is, no expert can come along and say anything different- photos document the position of the mandible and the duct tape holding it in place.

Also to mention that the Medical Examiner's reports are based on what and how the remains were initially found and the determinations made after the remains are examined at the morgue, otherwise, why bring the Medical Examiner to the crime scene in the first place?

 

[nort]

See this is what is confusing me so much. If the tape were applied to the skin and hair and the decomposition took place how does it still hold bones in place. I can see it sticking to hair as thats pretty simple. But I just dont see it stuck on the skin and then skin goes away and it sticks to the bones enough to hold them in place. Maybe she was taped in the early stages of decomp, with some bone exposed to adhere the tape to, after someone saw her mouth hanging open. I'm really trying I even read the report again but it does not really explain how tape lost the surface it was stuck to and then attached itself to a bone to hold it in place. If I wrapped a gift in paper and the paper dissolved the tape surely would not adhere itself to the gift under the paper. Dont yell I'm trying really....I know the report does not say the tape was stuck to the bones but how would it hold a bone in place if it was not.

 

[wyome]

See this is what is confusing me so much. If the tape were applied to the skin and hair and the decomposition took place how does it still hold bones in place. I can see it sticking to hair as thats pretty simple. But I just dont see it stuck on the skin and then skin goes away and it sticks to the bones enough to hold them in place. Maybe she was taped in the early stages of decomp, with some bone exposed to adhere the tape to, after someone saw her mouth hanging open. I'm really trying I even read the report again but it does not really explain how tape lost the surface it was stuck to and then attached itself to a bone to hold it in place. If I wrapped a gift in paper and the paper dissolved the tape surely would not adhere itself to the gift under the paper. Dont yell I'm trying really....I know the report does not say the tape was stuck to the bones but how would it hold a bone in place if it was not.

This confuses me as well, you are not alone. This is why I tend to believe Caylee was taped later, after death, after decomp had begun.

 

[logicalgirl]

This confuses me as well, you are not alone. This is why I tend to believe Caylee was taped later, after death, after decomp had begun.

The ME report definitely states the duct tape was applied "pre-decomp". I believe a further explanation of why Dr. G. thinks this will come out during her testimony at trial.

 

[nort]

The ME report definitely states the duct tape was applied "pre-decomp". I believe a further explanation of why Dr. G. thinks this will come out during her testimony at trial.

I just cant wait for this trial .....

 

[wyome]

I think Casey's callous attitude regarding Caylee missing, her behavior from Day 1, the tattoo, Fusion, the jail phone calls, not mentioning Caylee when she was out on bond, the list is too long is added information re no accident.

I say - show me one fact proving it was an accident. And that does not mean the phone calls since they can't be proven as distress call.

Her behavior that you mention above definitety reaks of her not giving a d*mn at all, whether it was a preplanned murder, an accident, or a crime of passion. IMO, that's what's so aggravating about this case. In any senario, a mother would be distraught, paranoid, emotional, or anxious....or any combo of all of these things. Instead, she's calm, steady, and pleasant. If it WAS an accident, they'll have a hard time convincing a jury that she was moved or phased by it at all.

 

[Baznme]

See this is what is confusing me so much. If the tape were applied to the skin and hair and the decomposition took place how does it still hold bones in place. I can see it sticking to hair as thats pretty simple. But I just dont see it stuck on the skin and then skin goes away and it sticks to the bones enough to hold them in place. Maybe she was taped in the early stages of decomp, with some bone exposed to adhere the tape to, after someone saw her mouth hanging open. I'm really trying I even read the report again but it does not really explain how tape lost the surface it was stuck to and then attached itself to a bone to hold it in place. If I wrapped a gift in paper and the paper dissolved the tape surely would not adhere itself to the gift under the paper. Dont yell I'm trying really....I know the report does not say the tape was stuck to the bones but how would it hold a bone in place if it was not.

Let me see if I can help from what I understand this to be. If you wrapped a gift in a box, used cold cuts (bologna) to wrap it in, added some hair frm a wig before applying duct tape to the gift (three long strips that would go from one end of the box to the other). If you can picture this box as being a skull, from what I read the tape was placed from behind the mandible down towards the back of the skull all the way across the mouth and and nose to the other side as far back as the other side. In another accounting I read that the tape was wrapped all the way around, which would make sense if the Medical Examiner had to cat away the tape from the skull to examine properly. Anyway, when the cold cuts deteriorated to nothing, the box, the hair and the tape would still be there as they do not deteriorate. We have to remember that this was a small child and the thickness of skin on the mandible is very thin. if the tape was wrapped completely around the skull, it would support the theory even more that the mandible would remain with the skull simply because it held the skull and mandible together as being one complete circle of tape. That's just my take on it. I'm sure we'll all find out at trial. I just with is would come on already.