Evidence That is Incompatible With an Accident Theory

[logicalgirl]

Bolded by me:

I believe there is a case there in Florida (within 4 miles of the Athony's) where a guy broke into a house and took the little girl into the garage and placed her on a blanket and used duct tape from the house. He went back into the house to get shoes or something and the little girl got the duct tape off and started screaming. this awoke the father and the father chased the intruder away. Later the police found him. Clearly he intended to harm her.

I do believe a perp would use a blanket and duct tape from the house if it were available to him. IMO

He would need to be familiar with the house though wouldn't he? I dare you to dig around in my place looking for where I keep my duct tape without waking me up. As for a blanket, pretty much the same answer. If you've identified your target - that is you know where they live - wouldn't you bring your own supplies to save time and take a lessor chance of getting caught?

 

[LambChop]

And why try to pin the death of the child on someone else. Why have all these depositions with sole purpose of throwing people under the bus? Why ask for all the information from TES? I think the accident defense has gone under the bus/RV. So defense waits until the very last day and claims, "Gee judge (not your honor, now) sorry to waste the court's time but no one told us RK, our main perp, was out of the country when Caylee went missing. Opps, sorry my bad. So now we would like to tell you what really happend. It was an accident. KC was mixing up a batch of chloroform to seduce her new main squeeze and Caylee accidentially drank some." (Not that any child would drink anything that remotely smelled that bad but you know, one lie is as good as another) JMO

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

If Casey were mistreating Caylee (like keeping her captive in the trunk of the Firebird while she partied) and Caylee died in there, our legal system would consider that an accidental homicide, right?

I can believe that all Casey would know, upon finding Caylee's dead body, is that she was responsible for Caylee's death. I think Casey's immediate reaction, under those circumstances, would be to try to hide it or cover it up. Having read several of Casey's latest plans (RV ministry, adopt child with Irish accent, etc), I don't have confidence in her organizational/planning skills. Seems like if she had planned to set up a kidnapping scenario she would have bound her hands and feet, sent herself fake emails and have been screaming at the top of her lungs, this entire time, for someone to find that murdering kidnapper.

I don't think she would have merely put tape on her face and dumped her in the woods near her home. And then start out with the weak story that she just gave her to the "nanny" and never got her back again. Please notice that in each telling of the "nanny" story that it becomes weaker and weaker. She was, at last telling, even saying that she could understand why "Zany" would not come forward ~ due to the harsh treatment that her poor, innocent self was receiving.

Nope, I don't think the tape was there to simulate a kidnapping. It was too little and her actions and feeble at temps at a storyline refute the cover up of, IMO, even an accidental death. I believe, in my heart, that the Henkel tape was used during a rage-filled, violent murder.

 

[LambChop]

Bolded by me:

I believe there is a case there in Florida (within 4 miles of the Athony's) where a guy broke into a house and took the little girl into the garage and placed her on a blanket and used duct tape from the house. He went back into the house to get shoes or something and the little girl got the duct tape off and started screaming. this awoke the father and the father chased the intruder away. Later the police found him. Clearly he intended to harm her.

I do believe a perp would use a blanket and duct tape from the house if it were available to him. IMO

Well since KC left home WITHOUT the blanket but with Caylee that would be a little more difficult for a perp to do. Leaves home at 1pm, child gone by 7pm. So why would KC not tell someone, alert the police, she was on her phone 24/7. KC is still responsible and we can speculate all we want KC never alerted the police of her child being in potential danger because she was already dead by 7pm. No need. Does anyone think the perp said to KC, "Hey, Cas, throw me your house keys so I can grab some duct tape, bags and Cays blanket from the house so she'll be comfortable in the trunk while we party"? Ah, I don't think so. JMO

 

[notthatsmart]

He would need to be familiar with the house though wouldn't he? I dare you to dig around in my place looking for where I keep my duct tape without waking me up. As for a blanket, pretty much the same answer. If you've identified your target - that is you know where they live - wouldn't you bring your own supplies to save time and take a lessor chance of getting caught?

Not sure these perps use common sense while they commit these crimes. They are probably in a different state of mind than most. Something clicks in their mind that most of us don't understand. Some of these perps are married and have children at home of their own. It wouldn't surprise me at all if a perp abducted a child with blanket.

I saw a video a few years ago of a guy abducting a girl at a carwash. Security cam caught it on tape. I couldn't believe it. He just grabbed her by the wrist and wisked her away. He had family at home himself. They found her dead in the woods less than 2 miles from the carwash. I believe they go into a trance or seizure or some state of mind, and when they awake from it, they kill the victim to eliminate the evidence of any wrong doing.

When I look at this crime scene, It does not look like an accident occurred at all. It looks more like an abduction thing to me. There is a blanket, duct tape and she is naked other than her tshirt. I know I know I know, the 31 day thing. Yup , I get it. But just to look at the crime scene itself, it does not look like an accident to me. IMO

 

[JBean]

Here is an example of what I mean. This was from the Huck case. The ME cannot say with 100% medical certainty but he CAN say that in his educated opinion what he thinks were possible causes of death. So, all I am saying is I am waiting for that last piece from Dr.G which I suspect may fully support many of the theories here. The only reason I need her opinion is because she specifically did not say pre-mortem in her report when I would have expected her too and perhaps it was because she could not say it with medical certainty. If that is the case she will clarify that in her opinion and that will be the proof. Hopefully that clarifies what i mean.
From the Huck case:
At trial the medical examiner testified that because of the condition of the body, he was
not "one hundred percent" certain of the cause of death. In his opinion, however, the victim
died "within a reasonable degree of probability" from asphyxia either by the tape on her nose
and mouth or from drowning. The medical examiner found no fractures, entrance or exit
wounds, or injuries from a sharp object, but could not rule out blunt force trauma. He found no
evidence of organ injury or disease in the lungs, and found no drugs, poisons or heavy metals.
According to the doctor, the victim looked to be a normal 22-year old woman. He concluded
that the manner of death was homicide.
http://www.romingerlegal.com/floridacourts/court_opinions2/5D03-1906.op.html

Oh, you came up with it !
Great!
I was just googling and it was #1 on the search list :innocent:
It is Huck and here is a report:-
http://www.romingerlegal.com/floridacourts/court_opinions2/5D03-1906.op.html

It also has a lot of interesting comments regarding Expert Opinion of the Medical Examiners in the case.... it would be an excellent reference for us laypersons, the next time someone thinks there is a weakness in the fact that a Pathologist does not state with 100% certainty that something happened... this is very enlightening as to why that is not possible, and not done.

here is a link to Huck and some info from my earlier post. hope that helps.

 

[Phumi]

I think the answer to that is "not having to give up the defense strategy" I think it is legal. They are not required to say anything. They are not required to prove anything. It is the states burden to prove what happened. So, they probably have the right to present it as an accident at trial. As far as taxpayer money goes, anyone is welcome to write their congressman and try to get the constitution changed. If anyone feels we have too many rights as citizens, they should write to their congressman, start a grass roots movement.

I myself am perfectly happy with the rights that we have. IMO

Actually the state only needs to prove to the jury beyond a reasonable doubt that KC did it. They do not have to prove HOW she did it. Not nit-picking. I think that is a very important difference.

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

Oh flourish, I think they were agreeing with me. At least that is the way I took it. Some people just want 100%. I want to be J Lo....not going to happen. Not in a real world. LOL

Oh no, LambChop; not J Lo. We love you! You're one of the best dancers here! :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance:

 

[notthatsmart]

Well since KC left home WITHOUT the blanket but with Caylee that would be a little more difficult for a perp to do. Leaves home at 1pm, child gone by 7pm. So why would KC not tell someone, alert the police, she was on her phone 24/7. KC is still responsible and we can speculate all we want KC never alerted the police of her child being in potential danger because she was already dead by 7pm. No need. Does anyone think the perp said to KC, "Hey, Cas, throw me your house keys so I can grab some duct tape, bags and Cays blanket from the house so she'll be comfortable in the trunk while we party"? Ah, I don't think so. JMO

Wait a sec, how do we know Kc left home without the blanket?
How do we know Kc left home without the duct tape?
How do we know Kc left home without the Laundry bag?
How do we know Kc left home without the trash bags?

I think all these things are normal to be in someones car. I think the blanket and the tshirt were at Ricardo's at one point. These things were probably transferred often. It would not surprise me if Kc took the other laundry bag because she was planning on staying at Tony's more often. She could have taken the duct tape because she was transferring gas cans. It does not surprise me to see things at a crime scene that originated at a house. IMO

 

[LambChop]

Not sure these perps use common sense while they commit these crimes. They are probably in a different state of mind than most. Something clicks in their mind that most of us don't understand. Some of these perps are married and have children at home of their own. It wouldn't surprise me at all if a perp abducted a child with blanket.

I saw a video a few years ago of a guy abducting a girl at a carwash. Security cam caught it on tape. I couldn't believe it. He just grabbed her by the wrist and wisked her away. He had family at home himself. They found her dead in the woods less than 2 miles from the carwash. I believe they go into a trance or seizure or some state of mind, and when they awake from it, they kill the victim to eliminate the evidence of any wrong doing.

When I look at this crime scene, It does not look like an accident occurred at all. It looks more like an abduction thing to me. There is a blanket, duct tape and she is naked other than her tshirt. I know I know I know, the 31 day thing. Yup , I get it. But just to look at the crime scene itself, it does not look like an accident to me. IMO

Oh, I agree with you here. Sort of like, looking up chloroform on the computer, neck breaking, household weapons and then suddenly on your watch your child goes missing and you just can't bring yourself to report it to police. Sounds more like the actions of a perp, doesn't it. Yep, exactly what I was thinking. In order to abduct a child who is glued to the side of her mother without the mother reporting it leads one to believe the mother is in on the crime. What an honorable woman KC is, to be willing to go to her death for someone she can't even identify. Let's put her up for "Woman of the Year". I believe KC has already been bestowed with "Mother of the Year" by her own mother. Yep, yep when you can't figure out who to blame for the crime just keep making up stories because eventually you'll hit one that flies. That's our Cas all right. JMO

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

Bolded by me:

I believe there is a case there in Florida (within 4 miles of the Athony's) where a guy broke into a house and took the little girl into the garage and placed her on a blanket and used duct tape from the house. He went back into the house to get shoes or something and the little girl got the duct tape off and started screaming. this awoke the father and the father chased the intruder away. Later the police found him. Clearly he intended to harm her.

I do believe a perp would use a blanket and duct tape from the house if it were available to him. IMO

Well since KC left home WITHOUT the blanket but with Caylee that would be a little more difficult for a perp to do. Leaves home at 1pm, child gone by 7pm. So why would KC not tell someone, alert the police, she was on her phone 24/7. KC is still responsible and we can speculate all we want KC never alerted the police of her child being in potential danger because she was already dead by 7pm. No need. Does anyone think the perp said to KC, "Hey, Cas, throw me your house keys so I can grab some duct tape, bags and Cays blanket from the house so she'll be comfortable in the trunk while we party"? Ah, I don't think so. JMO

Wait a sec, how do we know Kc left home without the blanket?
How do we know Kc left home without the duct tape?
How do we know Kc left home without the Laundry bag?
How do we know Kc left home without the trash bags?

I think all these things are normal to be in someones car. I think the blanket and the tshirt were at Ricardo's at one point. These things were probably transferred often. It would not surprise me if Kc took the other laundry bag because she was planning on staying at Tony's more often. She could have taken the duct tape because she was transferring gas cans. It does not surprise me to see things at a crime scene that originated at a house. IMO

I am having a difficult time following what you're trying to say, nts. At first I thought you were saying that a stranger could have done it because they could have had access to the other objects. But now you're saying that Casey had access to all of them. Or are you thinking Casey set all those things up, just real handy in the car, so a 3rd party could come along and use them all to murder/dispose of Caylee? :waitasec:

 

[nort]

To listen to some on this thread sounds like it will be a slam dunk for the prosecutor, there just is'nt one other possiblity. Some seem to know the why, how and method, its amazing.

 

[LambChop]

Wait a sec, how do we know Kc left home without the blanket?
How do we know Kc left home without the duct tape?
How do we know Kc left home without the Laundry bag?
How do we know Kc left home without the trash bags?

I think all these things are normal to be in someones car. I think the blanket and the tshirt were at Ricardo's at one point. These things were probably transferred often. It would not surprise me if Kc took the other laundry bag because she was planning on staying at Tony's more often. She could have taken the duct tape because she was transferring gas cans. It does not surprise me to see things at a crime scene that originated at a house. IMO

Exactly, right in the trunk where KC would have access to them. Great point, NTS. Now we are making sense here. That would explain why KC had no problems making it to her date with TL that night. Oh but wait CA did say the blanket was missing from the bed. Babies usually like their blanket with them when they sleep. And it was June not January. GA also never described Caylee carrying the blanket just the backpack. Everything else though could have been in the trunk and the tape being returned to the home because it was not in the trunk when the car was recovered, nor were there trash bags so obviously KC found a use for them. We do know all these things were in the trunk but some of us believe they were in there because Caylee was in those bags, wrapped in duct tape. This would probably not be a good argument for defense as it puts KC right smack in the middle of responsibility.....JMO

 

[Astraea]

What would be the benefit of covering up an accident? If Casey has admitted an accident and called 911 immediately she would have been facing no charges and not sitting in jail for the last two years. But instead, she or someone (she hasn't been convicted yet) chose to bind Caylee's face with duct tape very shortly after her death. Remember, the experts say this was applied pre-decomp and to a layperson like me that means pretty darn quickly after the child died.

Even if she had admitted it when the LE were questioning her at her place of "work" the charges would probably have been lessor or minor. Casey has had many opportunities to declare this an accident, but if it was - she has instead chosen to sit in PC for two years waiting for a trial that may very well cost her her life.

Does that make sense to anyone? Covering up an Accident?

BBM Yes they inferred it was pre decomp not pre death. Why did the cadaver dogs hit in the yard and why the flurry of calls? If she killed her by suffocating her with duct tape why would she take her body to the yard?

 

[logicalgirl]

Not sure these perps use common sense while they commit these crimes. They are probably in a different state of mind than most. Something clicks in their mind that most of us don't understand. Some of these perps are married and have children at home of their own. It wouldn't surprise me at all if a perp abducted a child with blanket.

I saw a video a few years ago of a guy abducting a girl at a carwash. Security cam caught it on tape. I couldn't believe it. He just grabbed her by the wrist and wisked her away. He had family at home himself. They found her dead in the woods less than 2 miles from the carwash. I believe they go into a trance or seizure or some state of mind, and when they awake from it, they kill the victim to eliminate the evidence of any wrong doing.

When I look at this crime scene, It does not look like an accident occurred at all. It looks more like an abduction thing to me. There is a blanket, duct tape and she is naked other than her tshirt. I know I know I know, the 31 day thing. Yup , I get it. But just to look at the crime scene itself, it does not look like an accident to me. IMO

You have hit the nail on the head NTS - to look at the crime scene itself - it doesn't look like an accident. At least where the body was found six months after death, exposed to the elements. But we don't know where the actual death occurred, because of the time lapse in reporting the death, and the somewhat cleanup of the car by Cindy and/or George. The decomp in the trunk is a problem also. I just cannot come up with a scenario that works for me.
I agree about the video of the abduction - the guy just grabbed her and walked with no thought of security cameras or anything else. But Casey would have had to be somewhat calm and coherent to find and apply the duct tape and think up the kidnapping story. Ackkkk - my head hurts!

 

[Astraea]

Oh, I agree with you here. Sort of like, looking up chloroform on the computer, neck breaking, household weapons and then suddenly on your watch your child goes missing and you just can't bring yourself to report it to police. Sounds more like the actions of a perp, doesn't it. Yep, exactly what I was thinking. In order to abduct a child who is glued to the side of her mother without the mother reporting it leads one to believe the mother is in on the crime. What an honorable woman KC is, to be willing to go to her death for someone she can't even identify. Let's put her up for "Woman of the Year". I believe KC has already been bestowed with "Mother of the Year" by her own mother. Yep, yep when you can't figure out who to blame for the crime just keep making up stories because eventually you'll hit one that flies. That's our Cas all right. JMO

I dont think we KNOW who looked up those terms, nor do I find the relevance as they dont match the with the prosecutors inference that she killed her with duct tape. JMO

 

[logicalgirl]

Wait a sec, how do we know Kc left home without the blanket?
How do we know Kc left home without the duct tape?
How do we know Kc left home without the Laundry bag?
How do we know Kc left home without the trash bags?

I think all these things are normal to be in someones car. I think the blanket and the tshirt were at Ricardo's at one point. These things were probably transferred often. It would not surprise me if Kc took the other laundry bag because she was planning on staying at Tony's more often. She could have taken the duct tape because she was transferring gas cans. It does not surprise me to see things at a crime scene that originated at a house. IMO

Casey may not have taken those things when she left the first time with Caylee, but she certainly had ample opportunity to return for them over the next day or so.

 

[LambChop]

BBM Yes they inferred it was pre decomp not pre death. Why did the cadaver dogs hit in the yard and why the flurry of calls? If she killed her by suffocating her with duct tape why would she take her body to the yard?

My guess is her car was seen backed into the garage on the 18th. If KC planned on burying Caylee she may have started to dig a hole (which was found in the back yard near the foundation) and left Caylee lying on the ground. When KC could not dig the hole deep enough she may have decided it would be better to dump the body down the street. Or, decomposition fluids got onto the gas cans or something else in the trunk and because of the smell KC may have tried to wash it off in the backyard with the pool water. That would explain the ladder being moved. Just a guess.

 

[Astraea]

They will select a Jury that will be able to implement the DP though... since that is the punishment that is deemed appropriate for her crime.

Both sides select a jury as far as I am aware and I would assume that most jurors WOULD be able to apply the death penalty if they believe that she did this intentionally and with premeditation and beyond a reasonable doubt. The evidence does not point to this for me.

 

[Astraea]

My guess is her car was seen backed into the garage on the 18th. If KC planned on burying Caylee she may have started to dig a hole (which was found in the back yard near the foundation) and left Caylee lying on the ground. When KC could not dig the hole deep enough she may have decided it would be better to dump the body down the street. Or, decomposition fluids got onto the gas cans or something else in the trunk and because of the smell KC may have tried to wash it off in the backyard with the pool water. That would explain the ladder being moved. Just a guess.

But the dogs hit beside the pool correct? I dont see how that fits, why take her body over there whilst digging the hole?