Evidence That is Incompatible With an Accident Theory

[Lavanda Dolce]

I may be mistaken but in order to pursue an accident as a defense JB would have to put KC on the stand, that would never happen as her credibility is already shattered by her previously exposed lies to LE. Also, I don't think her own defense team could guard what comes out of her mouth as hers stories change at will. I don't see it happening, I think they will stick with "the nanny did it defense", absud as it is.

I positively agree. I think their method of operation will be to point the finger at someone else...anyone else...as a possible thought in the minds of the jury as opposed to any plea bargain or "accidental" arguments. However, this is going to be what will burn them. I believe she will be found guilty eventually...but I also believe there will be mistrials after mistrials. Just too many people aware of the case and someone somewhere is going to know the jurors and it is going to be a fiasco with one juror banned after another. I can see this coming.

 

[Lanie]

Nothing irks me more than when people call in on the shows and say well eh I think it was an accident.
Drugging your child to party and then ooops they die is not an accident.
Everyone on the face of this earth knows you dont drug a 2 year old!
Add in the net searches and duct tape, not reporting your child missing, etc etc etc and you have even more of a NO accident.

True enough, but would the sentence be lighter because the intent was not to kill?

I agree 100% with Short Stuff, and to KenoshaKid, I would certainly hope not.
One of my children did not sleep through the night until she was three and a half years old. My doctor wanted to hospitalize me a couple of times because of severe sleep deprivation. Another of my children had allergies, so I always had stuff like Benadryl in the house. Not once in those three and a half years did I ever give my child medication to make her sleep, even in my worst zombie state. The worst I did was give her some very watered-down chamomile tea a few times, and felt guilty about that. If you give a child medication for anything other than what the medication is for, it is a deliberate act, period.
Lanie

 

[BetsyB]

It's no secret that I believe Casey Anthony to be among the most brazen sociopaths of our time. There was no accident. Evidence to refute the "accident theory" -- a theory that has not yet even been posited by the defense, which seems to think sticking to a ridiculous Nanny Defense is the best bet....

1. Failure to call 911. I don't care how scared you are of your parents, if your child is hurt, you call 911. Good lord, the woman called 911 when people with picket signs on her parents' front lawn bothered her! If an accident occurred, she would have been so eager to deflect blame from herself and---and this is the important part---garner sympathy and revel in the Victim Role that she would have been talking the ear off the 911 operator.

2. The infamous 31 days--kicked off with the Blockbuster visit the evening following what is believed to be Caylee's death (when, in all likelihood, her dead toddler was lying in the trunk of her car as she canoodled with her beau in the front seat, while en route to watch movies that echoed her actions. The video and photographic evidence amassed during this time shows a woman who is not grieving.

Sure, grief manifests in many different ways--behavior can be seemingly inappropriate, but in actuality be quite normal.

There is NOTHING about Casey Anthony's behavior that shows even a dysfunctional grief. There is no grief, period.

3. The method of disposal of Caylee's body. Again, if an accidental death occurs, the normal response is to notify authorities. There is no prosecution for accident--there is no need to triple-bag your daughter,wrap her head in duct tape, give her a final "kiss" with scrapbooking stickers, and toss her like garbage. Might CPS have investigated whether an accident was due to negligence? It's possible. But the consequences for that would have been far less than those she's now facing.

Quite simply, Casey Anthony chose to dispose of her daughter. Once done, she was relieved. Problem solved. Unfortunately, the rest of the world did not share her nonchalance---she did not anticipate that others would not view the disappearance in the same way she does. Why? Because she is not capable of experiencing the full spectrum of human emotion--and therefore cannot anticipate the appropriate responses of others.

4. A lengthy history of antisocial (not in the "doesn't go to parties" sense, but in the sociopath sense) behavior. The family has since rescinded many of its statements, but early on, readily admitted she was an habitual liar, thief, and unfit mother, among other things. Cindy Anthony even used the word "sociopath" to describe her. I have 2 family sociopaths--I can't begin to tell you how hard it is to admit to others that this problem exists. It's not something people toss around for effect--when you call a person you love a sociopath, it's usually pretty meaningful, and sufficient attention should be paid. Even if you ultimately wish you'd never said it because, for some perverse reason you can't even begin to understand, you still love that monster and don't want her to lose her life to lethal injection.

5. There has been no evidence of an accident, but much evidence to the contrary--duct tape, decomp in a car, garbage bags and a discarded child, la bella vida being lived by the defendant post-death, the very bizarre circling of the Anthony wagons once it became apparent that Caylee was dead, and let's not forget the LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES and LIES.

6. Re: lies. Let's talk Zenaida Fernandez-Gonzalez. Does a woman whose child meets with accident concoct such a story, and steadfastly adhere to it for months on end? No. A scared woman might lie at first, but that quickly gives way to the truth.

And I have to reiterate: accidents are not punished in the same way as the callous murder of a baby--at most, she might have faced a CPS investigation and far, far lesser charges. Now, she's facing life without parole or a lethal injection. If it were an accident, do you really not think that she would admit that an accident occurred? Even if it was the result of gross negligence?!

7. 8. 9. 10. 11. 12.---I could go on and on and on. There simply was not an accident.

No one wants to believe that a mother could murder their child like she did and then go about her life as if nothing happened. It's is incomprehensable, so even though the jury might suspect otherwise, IMO, they will not be able to commit to the murder 1 theory.

The fact that people "don't want to believe" that a mother can harm her child in the manner in which Casey Anthony brutally murdered and discarded her precious baby will NOT earn Casey Anthony her freedom. She may have fooled people in her life when the stakes were lower, but the whole game has changed---no one is going to buy it now. (I hate to keep bringing up the sociopath in the family thing--but from experience I know that there is sort of a tipping point; you can deny it and maintain appearances up to a point. Beyond that point, it becomes impossible. Even if you continue to present a united front publicly.)

We may not want to believe it, but even less do we want to permit her the freedom to do it again.

Let me turn the question around--what evidence is there that an accident did occur?

Let's make NO mistake. She's done it once--and her subsequent behavior makes it crystal-clear she'd do it again if given the opportunity. I have confidence the SA can make this very clear to a jury.

Not that I feel strongly about it or anything. (My vehemence is NOT directed at any other poster--I just happen to feel rather strongly...)

 

[BetsyB]

True enough, but would the sentence be lighter because the intent was not to kill?

No. If death occurs as the result of another crime, it's felony murder whether there was intent or not.

 

[Lavanda Dolce]

I fully understand what you are stating. However, wouldn't this point of view also apply to all of the posts/threads here on Websleuths. A defense atty could read any thread to get an idea of what the general public may think or how a potential jury pool may interpret any particular piece of evidence or theory. No matter how much we may pick apart and interpret things here, facts are facts, evidence is evidence.
Respectfully, moo

Yes. Absolutely. I'm just a little bothered that it is neatly laid out in one forum. If they want to search and read...then let them do their homework. No sense handing it over on a silver platter. Know what I mean?

 

[BetsyB]

Yes. Absolutely. I'm just a little bothered that it is neatly laid out in one forum. If they want to search and read...then let them do their homework. No sense handing it over on a silver platter. Know what I mean?

It's really not something you need to be overly concerned about. They have shown, time and again, their unwillingness to do their homework. They're not going to pore over WS posts for their defense (if they were, they'd've been singing a far different tune by now!)--they won't even bother picking up and reading documents the SA prepares for them.

Much like others in Casey's thrall, it almost seems as though they don't want the evidence, lest their Lady and the Tramp fantasy be burst.

 

[Lavanda Dolce]

It's no secret that I believe Casey Anthony to be among the most brazen sociopaths of our time. There was no accident. Evidence to refute the "accident theory" -- a theory that has not yet even been posited by the defense, which seems to think sticking to a ridiculous Nanny Defense is the best bet....

1. Failure to call 911. I don't care how scared you are of your parents, if your child is hurt, you call 911. Good lord, the woman called 911 when people with picket signs on her parents' front lawn bothered her! If an accident occurred, she would have been so eager to deflect blame from herself and---and this is the important part---garner sympathy and revel in the Victim Role that she would have been talking the ear off the 911 operator.

2. The infamous 31 days--kicked off with the Blockbuster visit the evening following what is believed to be Caylee's death (when, in all likelihood, her dead toddler was lying in the trunk of her car as she canoodled with her beau in the front seat, while en route to watch movies that echoed her actions. The video and photographic evidence amassed during this time shows a woman who is not grieving.

Sure, grief manifests in many different ways--behavior can be seemingly inappropriate, but in actuality be quite normal.

There is NOTHING about Casey Anthony's behavior that shows even a dysfunctional grief. There is no grief, period.

3. The method of disposal of Caylee's body. Again, if an accidental death occurs, the normal response is to notify authorities. There is no prosecution for accident--there is no need to triple-bag your daughter,wrap her head in duct tape, give her a final "kiss" with scrapbooking stickers, and toss her like garbage. Might CPS have investigated whether an accident was due to negligence? It's possible. But the consequences for that would have been far less than those she's now facing.

Quite simply, Casey Anthony chose to dispose of her daughter. Once done, she was relieved. Problem solved. Unfortunately, the rest of the world did not share her nonchalance---she did not anticipate that others would not view the disappearance in the same way she does. Why? Because she is not capable of experiencing the full spectrum of human emotion--and therefore cannot anticipate the appropriate responses of others.

4. A lengthy history of antisocial (not in the "doesn't go to parties" sense, but in the sociopath sense) behavior. The family has since rescinded many of its statements, but early on, readily admitted she was an habitual liar, thief, and unfit mother, among other things. Cindy Anthony even used the word "sociopath" to describe her. I have 2 family sociopaths--I can't begin to tell you how hard it is to admit to others that this problem exists. It's not something people toss around for effect--when you call a person you love a sociopath, it's usually pretty meaningful, and sufficient attention should be paid. Even if you ultimately wish you'd never said it because, for some perverse reason you can't even begin to understand, you still love that monster and don't want her to lose her life to lethal injection.

5. There has been no evidence of an accident, but much evidence to the contrary--duct tape, decomp in a car, garbage bags and a discarded child, la bella vida being lived by the defendant post-death, the very bizarre circling of the Anthony wagons once it became apparent that Caylee was dead, and let's not forget the LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES and LIES.

6. Re: lies. Let's talk Zenaida Fernandez-Gonzalez. Does a woman whose child meets with accident concoct such a story, and steadfastly adhere to it for months on end? No. A scared woman might lie at first, but that quickly gives way to the truth.

And I have to reiterate: accidents are not punished in the same way as the callous murder of a baby--at most, she might have faced a CPS investigation and far, far lesser charges. Now, she's facing life without parole or a lethal injection. If it were an accident, do you really not think that she would admit that an accident occurred? Even if it was the result of gross negligence?!

7. 8. 9. 10. 11. 12.---I could go on and on and on. There simply was not an accident.



The fact that people "don't want to believe" that a mother can harm her child in the manner in which Casey Anthony brutally murdered and discarded her precious baby will NOT earn Casey Anthony her freedom. She may have fooled people in her life when the stakes were lower, but the whole game has changed---no one is going to buy it now. (I hate to keep bringing up the sociopath in the family thing--but from experience I know that there is sort of a tipping point; you can deny it and maintain appearances up to a point. Beyond that point, it becomes impossible. Even if you continue to present a united front publicly.)

We may not want to believe it, but even less do we want to permit her the freedom to do it again.

Let me turn the question around--what evidence is there that an accident did occur?

Let's make NO mistake. She's done it once--and her subsequent behavior makes it crystal-clear she'd do it again if given the opportunity. I have confidence the SA can make this very clear to a jury.

Not that I feel strongly about it or anything. (My vehemence is NOT directed at any other poster--I just happen to feel rather strongly...)

And I happen to agree with you, 100%. Albeit, what's fair in life doesn't always transpire in a courtroom. There are so many loopholes in the law that can have so many things "thrown out of court", not too mention...implications that a witness has ulterior motives (and of course bringing out all the skeletons in a closet of a witness)...and then we can toss in the fact that "mistakes" will be pointed out that the law enforcement may have made, the investigators, etc.

I too agree it does appear to be a rock solid tight case against Casey, however, what concerns me is the amount of evidence that has been presented to the media for the common people. Never before have I seen a case that all the evidence and chain of custody documents released. THAT is part of what scares me. OJ got off on murder charges for two simple reasons, #1 Furman lied under oath about racist comments and #2 they presented well that the evidence could have been tampered. Personally, both those reasons were ridiculous in comparison to what they had as evidence to show him guilty....and he got off.

I just hope history does not repeat itself.

 

[Lavanda Dolce]

It's really not something you need to be overly concerned about. They have shown, time and again, their unwillingness to do their homework. They're not going to pore over WS posts for their defense (if they were, they'd've been singing a far different tune by now!)--they won't even bother picking up and reading documents the SA prepares for them.

Much like others in Casey's thrall, it almost seems as though they don't want the evidence, lest their Lady and the Tramp fantasy be burst.

Which is EXACTLY my point Their unwillingness to do their homework to go through all the posts and read and gather what they feel could help them. Instead it is all neatly pasted in one thread. Not a lot of homework here, eh?

 

[ks1]

Some news program mentioned that KC could be "manic" along with being a sociopath. I know several people that are manic and the tales they tell and the webs they weave are incredible, when they are not on their medication. They are totally out of touch with reality. I can see how if she is, she would and could be able to do the things that she did immediately after Caylee died. I know there are other threads on this, but I just heard it recently again and am wondering now, if that will be the direction her defense is going to take. If so, and they claim it was an accident, we better hope that no jurors are picked that have friends or family that are manic as they would be more understanding of her behaviour.

 

[TallyHo]

If they can prove the June 21 diary entry was written in 2008 as opposed to 2003, that would be huge.

 

[Theonly1]

In all the document dumps, we read about laundry bags, stickers, etc. at the burial site that match those at the Anthony home. And other evidence, such as Casey's car trunk, linking Casey to a Caylee that was no longer alive. But this evidence really serves to suggest that Casey BURIED Caylee and defense could still argue, "it was an accident". Below are 2 posts of mine that flesh this issue out. What I'd like to do is keep this thread for discussing events, evidence, etc. that are INCOMPATIBLE with the theory that Caylee's death was an accident. Especially since the addition of TM as Casey's new attorney, I think keeping on eye on such evidence will be important.

Here are the 2 posts:
***********************
Sounds like defense may try to go with an "accident" theory. But I don't think it would attempt such a defense without Casey testifying that it was an accident. Jurors aren't going to be sympathetic to some lawyer showing jurors how it "could" have been an accident when Casey has NEVER said it's an accident and is sitting right there in the courtroom watching the "accident reenactment" without saying whether it's accurate. Even though Casey doesn't HAVE to testify at trial, for the "accident" theory to work I think her testimony would be needed.

In that regard, I think it would be easier than one thinks. Casey testifies that an accident happened (drowning, whatever) and that she became distraught and scared, calling her parents at every number for over an hour straight. She throws in a sob story about how she held her dead baby crying for the rest of the afternoon. After that, she's in shock and denial and comes up with the "kidnapping" story b/c she's ashamed of what happened and feels guilty about the accident and doesn't want anyone to know Caylee is dead, for fear of breaking everyone's heart (and for getting in trouble herself). Instead, she goes on acting like she is still alive for the sake of those who love Caylee and also b/c she is in denial herself about it. When she disposed of Caylee's body, her mouth was leaking nasty fluids and there were flies in it and it broke her heart to see it. Or maybe Caylee's lip was torn off at this point - who knows. So she covered her daughter's mouth with duct tape and put a heart on it. She buried her close to home b/c she wanted 2 be able 2 visit her easily. As for the rest - she lied to everyone about everything (Zanny; etc.) simply b/c she didn't want anyone to know Caylee was dead because (1) she didn't want to get in trouble and thought it was "too late" to report it; and (2) she didn't want the Anthonys to know their poor grandbaby was dead. Arguably, none of the "evidence" (decomp in the car, same laundry bag at the burial site) contradicts this story. Casey - "Yes, she was with me when she died (accident) and yes, I buried her and yes I lied to everyone b/c I didn't want anyone to know. And there was nothing I could do to bring her back so I went back to living my life and tried not to think about it. Part of me was in denial."

I'm concerned that a jury could "buy" the above. That's why I'm interested to know when Casey wrote the journal entry saying "I'm happy with the decision I made. I hope the end justifies the means." If she wrote that a few days after Caylee's death, I think it goes against an accident theory. Maybe doesn't disprove it, but really calls it into question. Presumably, she wasn't talking about some innocuous decision, like changing the color of her hair highlights. Also, I hope they are able to tell whether the duct tape was placed on Caylee before or after her death. If prosecutors can show duct tape was placed on Caylee's mouth while she was still alive (Dear Lord Help Us All), then the accident theory goes out the window.

***********************
I hope and pray evidence will show whether the duct tape was placed there pre or post mortem. And I've many times noted that there could be evidence of tears on the duct tape which would point to the tape being placed there while she was alive (but it breaks my heart to think of this). As if we don't have enough tragedies in this case, it would be terrible if persons who murder could (successfully) wait it out long enough for the body to decay so that cause of death is not determinable and then at the last minute in a murder trial, trot out an "accident" defense. At this point, I'm only interested in reading about evidence that is incompatible with an "accident" theory. Everytime I read about clothing and laundry bags at the burial scene matching those at the Anthony house, I think, "So what? She can still say it was an accident and all those things only show that Casey BURIED Caylee, not murdered her on purpose." Of course, events before and after Caylee's death can be viewed as arguably conflicting with an "accident" theory, so prosecutors have that as well. But I am really keeping my eye out for things such as the duct tape and that diary entry.

Evidence supporting Non-Accident Theory:

1. Searches for neckbreaking, chloroform, deadly household chemicals (paraphrased on the last one as I don't recall the exact search request) [premeditation]

2. Mentions of "Zani" to people via text and in conversation BEFORE Caylee went missing. [premeditation]

3. Mention to George on July 16th that she would not be home with Caylee that night. [premeditation]

4. No call to 911 on date of alleged accident (or EVER).

5. No confirmed distressed calls to family and friends.

6. No evidence of distress on July 16th seen in Blockbuster Video with TonE (or EVER).

7. Manner of Caylee's disposal in TRASH BAG--not a "loving" burial.

8. Evidence of Casey "living it up" after Caylee's death.

9. POSSIBLE evidence in Gatorade bottle with white sediment and alleged syringe found near remains of Caylee.

10. Duct tape wrapped firmly on head over the mouth and even into the hair on both sides of Caylee's skull.

11. Other duct tape found on the scene (which possibly could have been on Caylee's other limbs)...

12. The State allegedly had the "accident" offer on the table when the charges were initially filed (and before Caylee was found) and it was declined, remember?

13. CHLOROFORM was wafting out of Casey's trunk for God's sake.

14. Casey's DIARY OF DAYS on Myspace in response to Cindy's My Caylee is Missing..."What is given can be TAKEN AWAY..."

15. Casey's photobucket picture about "Why do people kill people who kill people". Goes to consciousness of guilt.

16. Cindy's "What did YOU DO?" and Casey's, "I"m a spiteful b*tch."

17. The Police were unable to "break her" and even get her to admit to an accident because THERE WAS NOT AN ACCIDENT. Casey even says so herself.
I could go on...

 

[NJ Lawyer]

And probably the most damning - to this day there has been no plea for Caylees safe return, no outcry for justice, no demand to find a murderer. And it is too late now, the public realilzed this a long time ago. The defense cannot spin this issue either, it is what it is. The story is right out of the Twilight Zone.

I think Casey's failure to demand a safe return of Caylee could actually be consistent with a "I didn't kill her intentionally" theory. If it was an "accident", Casey knew Caylee was dead and why would she make pleas for her return? She'd say "I didn't mean to kill her. I lied to everyone b/c I didn't want anyone to know what happened. I didn't make a plea for her return b/c I knew she was dead." Of course, there is plenty of stuff out there that does go against the "accident" theory and I'm looking to keep track of it on this thread in case we get blindsided with an "accident" defense.

 

[maryaok]

It's no secret that I believe Casey Anthony to be among the most brazen sociopaths of our time. There was no accident. Evidence to refute the "accident theory" -- a theory that has not yet even been posited by the defense, which seems to think sticking to a ridiculous Nanny Defense is the best bet....

1. Failure to call 911. I don't care how scared you are of your parents, if your child is hurt, you call 911. Good lord, the woman called 911 when people with picket signs on her parents' front lawn bothered her! If an accident occurred, she would have been so eager to deflect blame from herself and---and this is the important part---garner sympathy and revel in the Victim Role that she would have been talking the ear off the 911 operator.

2. The infamous 31 days--kicked off with the Blockbuster visit the evening following what is believed to be Caylee's death (when, in all likelihood, her dead toddler was lying in the trunk of her car as she canoodled with her beau in the front seat, while en route to watch movies that echoed her actions. The video and photographic evidence amassed during this time shows a woman who is not grieving.

Sure, grief manifests in many different ways--behavior can be seemingly inappropriate, but in actuality be quite normal.

There is NOTHING about Casey Anthony's behavior that shows even a dysfunctional grief. There is no grief, period.

3. The method of disposal of Caylee's body. Again, if an accidental death occurs, the normal response is to notify authorities. There is no prosecution for accident--there is no need to triple-bag your daughter,wrap her head in duct tape, give her a final "kiss" with scrapbooking stickers, and toss her like garbage. Might CPS have investigated whether an accident was due to negligence? It's possible. But the consequences for that would have been far less than those she's now facing.

Quite simply, Casey Anthony chose to dispose of her daughter. Once done, she was relieved. Problem solved. Unfortunately, the rest of the world did not share her nonchalance---she did not anticipate that others would not view the disappearance in the same way she does. Why? Because she is not capable of experiencing the full spectrum of human emotion--and therefore cannot anticipate the appropriate responses of others.

4. A lengthy history of antisocial (not in the "doesn't go to parties" sense, but in the sociopath sense) behavior. The family has since rescinded many of its statements, but early on, readily admitted she was an habitual liar, thief, and unfit mother, among other things. Cindy Anthony even used the word "sociopath" to describe her. I have 2 family sociopaths--I can't begin to tell you how hard it is to admit to others that this problem exists. It's not something people toss around for effect--when you call a person you love a sociopath, it's usually pretty meaningful, and sufficient attention should be paid. Even if you ultimately wish you'd never said it because, for some perverse reason you can't even begin to understand, you still love that monster and don't want her to lose her life to lethal injection.

5. There has been no evidence of an accident, but much evidence to the contrary--duct tape, decomp in a car, garbage bags and a discarded child, la bella vida being lived by the defendant post-death, the very bizarre circling of the Anthony wagons once it became apparent that Caylee was dead, and let's not forget the LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES and LIES.

6. Re: lies. Let's talk Zenaida Fernandez-Gonzalez. Does a woman whose child meets with accident concoct such a story, and steadfastly adhere to it for months on end? No. A scared woman might lie at first, but that quickly gives way to the truth.

And I have to reiterate: accidents are not punished in the same way as the callous murder of a baby--at most, she might have faced a CPS investigation and far, far lesser charges. Now, she's facing life without parole or a lethal injection. If it were an accident, do you really not think that she would admit that an accident occurred? Even if it was the result of gross negligence?!

7. 8. 9. 10. 11. 12.---I could go on and on and on. There simply was not an accident.



The fact that people "don't want to believe" that a mother can harm her child in the manner in which Casey Anthony brutally murdered and discarded her precious baby will NOT earn Casey Anthony her freedom. She may have fooled people in her life when the stakes were lower, but the whole game has changed---no one is going to buy it now. (I hate to keep bringing up the sociopath in the family thing--but from experience I know that there is sort of a tipping point; you can deny it and maintain appearances up to a point. Beyond that point, it becomes impossible. Even if you continue to present a united front publicly.)

We may not want to believe it, but even less do we want to permit her the freedom to do it again.

Let me turn the question around--what evidence is there that an accident did occur?

Let's make NO mistake. She's done it once--and her subsequent behavior makes it crystal-clear she'd do it again if given the opportunity. I have confidence the SA can make this very clear to a jury.

Not that I feel strongly about it or anything. (My vehemence is NOT directed at any other poster--I just happen to feel rather strongly...)

Excellent theory. I hope they get someone like you to lead the jury. Unfortunately, did you know, the average American in this country is educated to the eigth grade level? Who knows what it is in Florida. I hope the jurors can formulate such an argument and debate it with all seriousness, but I doubt it.

Just listen to the same ridiculous dribble that keeps coming in as live calls to NG and all the rest on this case. You really think the average person is going to reason like you do? Let's keep our fingers crossed.

 

[maryaok]

I mean how about that woman who wondered if they body could have floated there from the airport?

 

[LambChop]

If it were an accident it would have been after 1pm on June 16th. She has a dead child on her hands, what to do. Ah, tell Mom and Dad it was an accident but they won't answer their cell phones and it is getting late...I have to meet TonE and I am running out of time....okay, here is what I should do just bag the baby up, keep her hidden and I will deal with it tomorrow, because tomorrow is another day. She is way too cold.

Also, in the August 14th jailhouse visit with her parents, CA is crying and KC is laughing at her and says something like, "Why is she crying already?" How cold is that?

 

[LCoastMom]

Inconsistent with accident is a specific myspace entry of KC's:

On July 3, Cindy posted on her myspace the entry where she says, among other things, that Caylee is missing.

Approx. 7 days later, KC replied to that entry with the "everyone lies, everyone dies" 'poem'. A part of that was:

“What is given, can be taken away"

"taken away" clearly implies a deliberate act, the deliberate removal of Caylee from Cindy.

I believe this shows consciousness of guilt.

I am in complete agreement with this.

 

[LCoastMom]

Yes. Absolutely. I'm just a little bothered that it is neatly laid out in one forum. If they want to search and read...then let them do their homework. No sense handing it over on a silver platter. Know what I mean?

I agree we don't want to help the defense but:

If JB and crew can't (on their own) come up with everything we have and more due to having evidence we haven't heard, KC is in more trouble then we suspect and her only hope is to throw herself on the mercy of the court.

Anything the defense can read the state can also read so I believe this evens the stakes if they are gathering plausible excuses written here.

 

[DiDi]

Excellent theory. I hope they get someone like you to lead the jury. Unfortunately, did you know, the average American in this country is educated to the eigth grade level? Who knows what it is in Florida. I hope the jurors can formulate such an argument and debate it with all seriousness, but I doubt it.

Just listen to the same ridiculous dribble that keeps coming in as live calls to NG and all the rest on this case. You really think the average person is going to reason like you do? Let's keep our fingers crossed.

You hit the nail on the head. The only thing I disagree with is that I don't think education level means anything. It's all about how people think, or who they are. I have a friend who went to college to be a teacher, decided she picked wrong and continued on to become a nurse and went the whole nine yard. She is the most gullible person I've ever met, it's beyond belief what she believes. Another good friend, a lawyer, extremely booksmart, has no common sense what so ever. Another very educated person I know, never, ever says or even seems to think a negative word about someone, and if you do, always responds with a positive reason of why they may be that way, or did that.

I think if they stick with someone else killed Caylee, it's probably, as it should be, a slam dunk. She'll be in jail forever. If JB can convince Casey to switch over to the accident theory, I don't know. They are going to need more proof, which I hope they have and just haven't released yet. Because quite honestly, when I look at everything that has been mentioned here (and keep a completely open mind), only 3 or 4 things, if proven, would convince me beyond a reasonable doubt of premeditated murder, or an absolute intent to kill.

 

[cecybeans]

Let's face it, in the absence of an eye-witness ALL of the evidence is circumstantial, even the forensics. I suspected that before the body was found that the best the forensics could prove would be felony manslaughter (accidental death of a child under 12 in FL is automatically felony manslaughter). Unfortunately the autopsy could not prove cause of death, although the official ME label of homicide is helpful. All of the evidence found with the body (unless they can prove antemortem application of the duct tape) just as easily indicates a cover up to look like a kidnapping as it does premeditated murder.

To me the important parts in determining if this was an accident lie in her behavior both before and after the event and some of the decisions she made about how to handle the situation.

Even in October, TL basically ignored the nanny defense as unsupportable by suggesting PPD or a possible overdose. His appearance on NG the other night also suggests that they may be going for a bipolar defense. If they thought that so early on, they should have put her on meds right away (and maybe that is why she is gaining weight). But if that is the case she still behaves inappropriately in court, laughing and acting social as if the situation has no gravity whatsoever. Her body language speaks volumes. And while a personality disorder may explain behavior, it is not an insanity defense.

There are indications however that her behavior is reasonably organized and calculated when it comes to the cover up. Staging a kidnapping with duct tape and creating not one but two detailed stories about how her child disappeared suggests the ability and thought patterns of a person who would commit premeditated murder. Having a few feelings after the fact, crying over a video, does not mean she cared for the child enough not to kill her. It certainly does not bespeak the grief of a mother who accidentally killed a child she loved to a jury. The defense may try to explain all that away using some dissociative disorder theory but for all intents and purposes this girl acted relieved to be free of caring for this child. All of the excuses she made for the smell in her car both objectify and diminish this child to simple rodent roadkill.

Her insistence on preserving her own appearance of innocence, and refusal to ever admit accidental death despite many, many opportunities, also suggests to me that her own instincts are completely self-serving and without remorse, and as TheOnly1 (with her adorable Rhoda Penmark portrait) says above, it indicates she does not believe it was an accident. She is willing to go all out and risk the death penalty to pin the crime on others.

Her behavior before the crime also indicates she is methodically deceptive when it comes to planning - planting fake emails, doing searches for neckbreaking, chloroform and household weapons (none of which are needed to kill a child but could certainly indicate an interest in the demise of an adult).

I don't understand how people think that an accidental death theory will make her walk. It's still felony manslaughter in FL if there was medication involved. Unless she is willing to resurrect the pool theory or testify to Caylee falling and hitting her head, I just think the jury will want more detail to counteract all of the other evidence that shows she either didn't care or was spiteful. If that's the case and she testifies, I think the SA has a great chance of reducing everything she says to a bunch of lies. And regardless of what little tidbits or ideas the defense might get on this or other blogs, it is all pretty useless ultimately because it's all about the jury.

A jury might want to believe it is an accident, they may have to rule it is due to lack of other evidence, and she may not get a life sentence, but I'll bet she gets whatever maximum sentence there is for voluntary manslaughter due to the mounds of circumstantial evidence. And if we are relying on jurors with an eighth grade education, let's hope they at least have street smarts and will be bored to death with a lot of forensics experts trying to mitigate the science and that their hinky meters are just as good as any of ours. As much as I disliked the ugly protestors outside the Ant house, they were an indication that the general public felt there was something rotten in Denmark with this case and the behavior of not only KC but her entire family.

 

[TxLady2]

The thing that bothers me is that I have listened to a few TH lawyers on various news shows saying that all this evidence we have seen so far do not point to Casey herself doing this, that it could just as easily point to someone else. Unless her fingerprints or some other identifying DNA was on the duct tape, then it's going to be hard to prove it was Casey, but almost impossible to prove premeditation. I don't know... this case just doesn't look like a slam dunk to me. I hope I'm wrong, but some of these TH's seem to know what they are talking about. What do I know?