Evidence

[Userid]

^ Couple things:

Where does DJ ever definitively say that both AH and TH left his house? In one report, he says he's not quite sure; in the other, he says he's "90 % sure TH left alone" and "was gone for a while." http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/d_jacoby_declaration.html: numbers 9 and 10.

Second, now I'm just confused. If you're implying that TH came home to simply return home for the night with AH, then ran into SB while there, are you saying that the murder was premeditated? He let him and the boys go, then pretended to look for them (knowing where they were), then dropped AH off again at DJ's, then committed the murders. It would have to be premeditated for this somewhat muddled scenario to occur, correct?

Nothing about this murder suggests premeditation of any sort, in my view.

I think you're now trying to conjure a scenario where AH isn't in TH's possession during the initial phase of the attack. This is your right, but in my view it's better to let the evidence and logic speak for itself, as opposed to trying to make a square peg fit into a round hole.

 

[zencompass]

I don't think T.H. had a premeditated murder plot in mind at all. He sure would have had a "I'll show them boys what happens when I call them and they ignore me" justice lesson that was "coming to them". They would have been scared and stayed in the woods, their clubhouse or whatever you want to call it to wait until T.H. "simmered down" which obviously does not happen with him as his temper just "amps up". So no I don't think it was premeditated but I do feel he whacked someone so bad then all hell broke loose. JMO

 

[zencompass]

The sightings of the boys make sense to me because it looks as if they went into the woods around 5:30 - 6 p.m. then came back maybe for S.B. to get something to eat (green beans) and T.H. showed up. Maybe they weren't going to take off again but seeing T.H. getting into a rage would likely have terrified them all. That is when the Ballard sighting occurred around 6:30 p.m. T.H. took A.H. back to D.J.'s and went to find the boys in the woods to teach them a lesson and then the horrid violence occurred. T.H. went back later to move the bodies in the early hours of the next morning. JMO

 

[Userid]

I don't think T.H. had a premeditated murder plot in mind at all. He sure would have had a "I'll show them boys what happens when I call them and they ignore me" justice lesson that was "coming to them". They would have been scared and stayed in the woods, their clubhouse or whatever you want to call it to wait until T.H. "simmered down" which obviously does not happen with him as his temper just "amps up". So no I don't think it was premeditated but I do feel he whacked someone so bad then all hell broke loose. JMO

I don't know, it just seems like the more I read posts by other people, the more I get confused -- and I don't know if it's just me or if people are simply twisting things to fit their narrative. I thought, according to the JCB sighting, the boys were actually headed in TH's direction once they were called upon. Where are you getting the idea that they "ignored" TH's call?

Also, it definitely would have to be premeditated: the premeditation would have occurred with "I'll show them boys what happens when they don't call to me," dropping off AH at DJ's, and "searching" with DJ. It would have been premeditated for at least an hour, and moreover, it would have been better planned on top of it, within that hour of premeditation. Shoelaces wouldn't have been used and a farther dump site/murder site would have been utilized (other side of the highway).

 

[Lethalmatthew]

I thought it would be a good idea to list again what has been said about AH's location between 6 PM and 9 PM:

DJ WMPD interview 2007 http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/d_jacoby_int.html
Q: now when Terry left (...) did he take his little girl with him or did she stay there or
A: I honestly can't remember. My wife watch that kid so many times while they you know went places and I really, I'm thinking she went with him I you know I just couldn't swear to it man it's just been so long.

DJ Pasdar declaration 2009 http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/d_jacoby_declaration.html
'I am 90% sure that Terry left Amanda at my house for me and my wife to watch and that Terry left my house alone'

PH Pasdar declaration 2009 http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/p_hobbs_declaration1.html
'Terry had told me that he had Amanda with him from the time that I went to work until the time Terry came to pick me up. However, David and Bobbie Jacoby told me that Terry took Amanda to their home, that they played guitars for a while and that Terry left their house without Amanda and that the Jacobys watched Amanda for a while. Amanda also told me that Terry had dropped her off at the Jacobys and they watched Amanda while Terry was gone. I did not ever find out where Terry went when he left Amanda with David and Bobbie Jacoby.'

So we have AH's, DJ's, and BJ's words that AH was with DJ and BJ during the evening. IMO, that contradicts JCB's statement. I just don't see any reason to suspect that TH took AH with him, and then 15 minutes later dropping her off at DJ's house. I don't say it's impossible, it's just not what I make of the above sources.
Also, this is what JCB says wrt TH with the boys:
'While I was out in the front yard in the evening of May 5 1993, TH hollered at SB, MM and CB to get back down to the Hobbs' house (...) It looked like Terry was telling the boys to get back down to the Hobbs' house, because TH was watching SB's sister play and wanted all the kids together'
And then later:
'I am absolutely, completely and totally positive that I saw SB, MM and CB in my backyard and headed back to TH's house on the evening on May 5 1993'
JCB doesn't mention that the boys were disobeying TH, or that they were driving away from him (unless 'hollering' is meant in a negative way?)

 

[Cher Lockhomes]

DJ made two statements, one in 2007, one in 2009. He also made contradicting statements on FB as far as I have read. He didn't even know if he'd eventually dreamt certain things. What he his sure about is that he played guitars with TH for a length of time. In West of Memphis, he said the song they were playing, was from Roy Orbison. The guitar part is the only part I believe.

I don't think DJ had anything to do with the murders. I think he is a decent guy, and I think he is easily overwhelmed in stress situations. TH got DJ into a stress situation by telling the whole world a "pile of crap" in his 2007 police interview, and his Pasdar depositions.TH is a pathological liar.

PH had to believe what a confused DJ, and a storytelling TH Told her, and a four year old child. BJ said, TH is a dangerous man, and she didn't want anything to do with him. Why are statements which are all over the place, with descriptions like, 90%, maybe, I'm not sure, that are totally contradicting in some points, believed, on the other hand a statement that is clearly founded, very logical, and backed up by two other people dismissed ? Can't figure the logic out.

I am a great believer that TH did it at home, that AH may not have been at the Jacoby's at the time, and that it was possibly premeditated, if not consciously, then subconsciously. TH is a pathological liar in a conscious state of mind, but his subconscious does not lie. JMO.

 

[Userid]

^ This is half-true. DJ implied that he may have dreamt the following scenario: that he saw the boys riding by on bikes in the background as TH and AH were at DJ's doorway. He never implied that he "dreamt" any other elements, as far as I can recall.

Not only do you have DJ "90%" certain that TH left AH at the house, but you also have his wife BJ confirming it, in addition to AH. BJ is key here: she was an adult and she had no reason to lie. So, you have 2 adults (who everyone assumes weren't in on it) in DJ and BJ, and one child (AH), all disputing the JCB sighting of AH with TH. There really is no other way around this. If you want to believe the JCB sighting, that's fine I guess (even though I don't), but at least admit that this portion of the sighting (AH) is most likely false.

 

[Cher Lockhomes]

Another interesting story surrounding a piece of evidence, is the story of SB's friendship bracelet.

Evidence submission list 5/7/93. It was supposed to be sent to the crime lab by Peretti here:
http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/img/ascl_cloth_bracelet.html

photo of bracelet in evidence bag:
http://callahan.8k.com/images2/bracelet.JPG

Mentioned in Peretti autopsy report: (End of first paragraph)
http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/autsb.html

Here is the analysis report from 6/29/93, note no bracelet:
http://callahan.8k.com/images/ascl/ASCL_Trace_0629_01Steve.JPG

At the Echols/Baldwin trial, Peretti says the bracelet was buried with SB:
http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/abstract/peretti1.html

Rumours say, SB got this friendship bracelet off DM, can't find anything to confirm this.
Rumours also say, the bracelet is still among the evidence at the wmpd.
Considering, the three boys were completely naked except for this friendship bracelet, could it tell us something about the perp. ? Why was it not tested for trace evidence?

 

[Compassionate Reader]

I will agree that it is possible that AH never left DJ's house until TH left to get Pam, but why I doubt that is that I see no reason for TH to leave AH at DJ's when he was apparently returning home. Why would he leave AH at DJ's? As I've stated before, I believe that TH was trying to confuse the issue of who was where when. I believe (as others have said) that he found SB (and possibly the other two) at his house when he returned (with or without AH is really immaterial, and it is possible that JCB mistook the child in the driveway for another neighborhood child, but that, IMO, doesn't invalidate her affidavit as the most important players were TH and the three victims). I don't think he left DJ's thinking, "I'm gonna go kill SB." I think, again as others have suggested, that he became enraged when SB and the other two disobeyed his order to return to him. As to JCB stating that the boys were headed toward TH, the boys could have simply breezed past him en route to the woods, maybe even reversing direction when out of sight.

I think premeditation was involved in the deaths of CB and MM, but I think the initial attack was on SB, when TH wanted to punish (maybe even humiliate) SB for disobedience. This "discipline" simply went too far, and TH, believing he had killed SB, thought it best to silence the witnesses. Premeditation doesn't mean an involved plan. It can be a spur of the moment decision. IMO, that's what happened in this case.

As to the friendship bracelet, that's interesting on several counts. First, I've recently been examining the evidence submission lists on Cally's. When the bracelet is first listed, a note on the submission form states, "send to Inv. agency" which I interpret to mean "send this to an investigating agency." I have never seen any additional official information on this piece of evidence. It did not show up on any reports from the ASCL (Sakevicius or Channell) or on the Alabama Department of Forensic Sciences reports, or on Genetic Design reports or even in the post-conviction testing done by the Bode and SERI labs. I do remember hearing a rumor that someone who went to the wmpd evidence room saw it there and took a picture of it. I don't remember where I heard that, and it's been years ago. However, it is interesting.

 

[Lethalmatthew]

I will agree that it is possible that AH never left DJ's house until TH left to get Pam, but why I doubt that is that I see no reason for TH to leave AH at DJ's when he was apparently returning home. Why would he leave AH at DJ's? As I've stated before, I believe that TH was trying to confuse the issue of who was where when. I believe (as others have said) that he found SB (and possibly the other two) at his house when he returned (with or without AH is really immaterial, and it is possible that JCB mistook the child in the driveway for another neighborhood child, but that, IMO, doesn't invalidate her affidavit as the most important players were TH and the three victims). I don't think he left DJ's thinking, "I'm gonna go kill SB." I think, again as others have suggested, that he became enraged when SB and the other two disobeyed his order to return to him. As to JCB stating that the boys were headed toward TH, the boys could have simply breezed past him en route to the woods, maybe even reversing direction when out of sight.

I think we know too little about TH's habbits to be able to say whether it was out of the ordinary that he would leave AH at DJ's place. PH said that AH would play with DJ's little son ('I'd go over there and drink coffee and Amanda would play with her little son, cause they were about the same age and stuff'), so maybe that's a reason for TH to leave her at the Jacobys. And he would pick her up at about 9, which is just about 2,5 hours after he left the Jacobys. I could imagine that TH wanted to have a few hours to himself and asked BJ to watch her until he came back to pick up PH.
The bracelet is indeed interesting. I don't think it would have been a good idea to bury the bracelet with SB, without examining it first, so I hope they did that. But since there is no record of it, I don't think they did

 

[Compassionate Reader]

It was received by the wmpd and listed on an evidence submission form, so I don't think it was buried w/SB. As to TH's habits, I just don't see why he would leave AH w/DJ after the guitar session. Had TH and AH eaten dinner? There seems to be confusion on this, too. However, as I said before, it is really immaterial in the long run as to whether AH returned with TH or not. The much more important "players" in the JCB sighting are the victims and TH. IMO, at the time JCB saw what she (and her sister, BTW) saw, it is entirely possible that SB and AH had had time to eat a bit (IMO, SB was eating when TH and AH arrived home) before the confrontation that JCB witnessed. Of course, it's also possible that TH and AH ate before they went to DJ's for the guitar-playing session. Again, the question of when AH and TH ate their dinner is unclear. Did PH, TH and AH eat before PH was taken to work? We simply don't know. Since PH told SB to return home by 4:30, I'm assuming that it was so that all four could eat together before she went to work. However, as a mother, I don't think PH would have been able to eat w/SB missing. So, it's all very confusing, to say the least! This conundrum adds to the mystery of this whole case!

 

[Userid]

I will agree that it is possible that AH never left DJ's house until TH left to get Pam, but why I doubt that is that I see no reason for TH to leave AH at DJ's when he was apparently returning home. Why would he leave AH at DJ's? As I've stated before, I believe that TH was trying to confuse the issue of who was where when. I believe (as others have said) that he found SB (and possibly the other two) at his house when he returned (with or without AH is really immaterial, and it is possible that JCB mistook the child in the driveway for another neighborhood child, but that, IMO, doesn't invalidate her affidavit as the most important players were TH and the three victims). I don't think he left DJ's thinking, "I'm gonna go kill SB." I think, again as others have suggested, that he became enraged when SB and the other two disobeyed his order to return to him. As to JCB stating that the boys were headed toward TH, the boys could have simply breezed past him en route to the woods, maybe even reversing direction when out of sight.

I think premeditation was involved in the deaths of CB and MM, but I think the initial attack was on SB, when TH wanted to punish (maybe even humiliate) SB for disobedience. This "discipline" simply went too far, and TH, believing he had killed SB, thought it best to silence the witnesses. Premeditation doesn't mean an involved plan. It can be a spur of the moment decision. IMO, that's what happened in this case.

As to the friendship bracelet, that's interesting on several counts. First, I've recently been examining the evidence submission lists on Cally's. When the bracelet is first listed, a note on the submission form states, "send to Inv. agency" which I interpret to mean "send this to an investigating agency." I have never seen any additional official information on this piece of evidence. It did not show up on any reports from the ASCL (Sakevicius or Channell) or on the Alabama Department of Forensic Sciences reports, or on Genetic Design reports or even in the post-conviction testing done by the Bode and SERI labs. I do remember hearing a rumor that someone who went to the wmpd evidence room saw it there and took a picture of it. I don't remember where I heard that, and it's been years ago. However, it is interesting.

He would leave her there because it would obviously be easier to locate the boys without her in his possession. He went home to simply "check in" to see if SB was there; he wasn't going home for the night.

I like how the argument keeps morphing. First, the boys didn't return to TH at all in the JCB sighting. Now, they returned in his direction, but rode past him (again, completely unsubstantiated). I just wish we could focus on what we know, as opposed to always throwing crap at the walls and seeing what sticks. We "know" (I use this word lightly because, as I've stated, I think the JCB sighting is utter BS, but I digress) that the boys were riding in the direction of TH after being summoned by him. That is what we "know" and that's as far as we know. Period.
________________________________

In regards to the friendship bracelet, I think it's important to note that it is widely believed that CB was wearing his medical bracelet (JMB stated that he would have been, as he wore it everyday) -- yet this bracelet was never recovered (if I remember correctly). It's peculiar in that, the friendship bracelet remained on one victim, but not the medical bracelet on another. Why was it taken off? Did it get in the way of the bindings? Was it a trophy? Was it because the killer didn't want to boy to be identified (perhaps he was banking on them not being found right away and that the remains would be severely deteriorated past the point of identification over time)?

 

[Compassionate Reader]

I believe the JCB sighting to be useful. Period. We will simply have to agree to disagree on this one. I have stated my reasons ad nauseum. Yes, I try to explain possibilities in differing ways, but the "story" isn't "morphing." JCB saw the boys with or near TH very close to 6:30 pm on May 5, 1993. TH was yelling at them to return to him. This is the actual quote of the portion in question:

"While I was out in the front yard in the evening of May 5, 1993, Terry Hobbs hollered at Stevie, Michael and Christopher to get back down to the Hobbs' house. I recall that Stevie was on a bike. I could see that Stevie's much younger sibling, a little girl, was playing down at the Hobbs' house in their driveway. It looked like Terry was telling the boys to get back down to the Hobbs' house because Terry Hobbs was watching Stevie's sister play and wanted all the kids together. Then, I got in the car and went to church."

I see no mention here, or elsewhere, that JCB stated that boys were moving in TH's direction. If you can find such, please enlighten me.


As to CB's medical bracelet, I've thought about that before and, IMO, the clasp must have come open, possible during the initial attack, which, IMO, did not occur in the spot where the bodies were found. If the police had located that bracelet, IMO, they would have found the crime scene. Of course, this is my opinion.

 

[Userid]

I see no mention here, or elsewhere, that JCB stated that boys were moving in TH's direction. If you can find such, please enlighten me.

Ask and you shall receive: 55 second mark to 1:00 to be exact:

[video=youtube;ewMLDqYgd3Q]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewMLDqYgd3Q[/video]

 

[Compassionate Reader]

As I've said before, if AH wasn't in the driveway, IMO, it doesn't negate the sighting of the victims and TH interacting. Period.

BTW, that "spin" in the youtube video is so typical of those who don't want to see the truth! If you looked up "cherry picking" in the dictionary, you could possibly see this video.

 

[Userid]

Oh God, as if I picked the video because it's anti-WM3....I picked it because you asked directly where and if JCB ever said the boys were heading in TH's direction. It was the first video I found when I typed in "JCB West Memphis Three." West of Memphis isn't on Youtube, like the PL docs. You have to pay to watch it on Youtube, and this is the only clip I could find that had WofM footage for free. I really don't appreciate such an ignorant accusation.

How is it cherry picking?!? The answer to your previous question is literally, word for word, from the horse's mouth (55 seconds to the 1 minute mark)! She saw the boys riding in the direction of TH. I know you'll just dismiss this, just like you dismiss her saying she saw AH in the driveway; and just like you dismissed the bull about seeing CB's brother the next day at school. So I might as well not bother, but I can't seem to help myself.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

Nor can I. I'm just a bit obsessed w/this case. I wasn't accusing you of "spinning" or "cherry picking" but the maker of the video, unless you made it! However, I will admit that JCB's sister did say that in her affidavit. I just don't see it as a reason to doubt the sighting, as I've explained previously.

 

[Userid]

No way, I don't make videos. What did JCB's sister say, now?

 

[Compassionate Reader]

She made an affidavit when JCB did.

http://callahan.8k.com/pdf/affidavit_brandy_clark_williams.pdf

 

[Userid]

Ok, by "that" you meant that JCB's sister said she saw them going in TH's direction also. Got it. That's one thing we can put to rest now.