Excluding the Ramseys, Profile of the Killer.

[James50]

Enjoying reading your posts. Please keep it up.

I've seen similarities in other crimes for sure:

Garrote and headbash: actor Bob Crane (Hogan's Heroes)

"You're not the only fat cat around so don't think that killing will be difficult" is an ideological equivalent to 'Death to Pigs' from Manson killings.

Holdon, what's your opinion of the Zodiac link? Keep in mind, by the way, that I'm not saying that he 's trying to be the Zodiac killer, but only that he has borrowed from him and other such killers. I think Roy read rather more into my post than I intended.

Take a look at the RN, for example. The ZoOdiac killer wrote long RNs on which he didn't collect.

 

[James50]

And people, don't bite off the hand that feeds you. If there's a link with the Zodiac killings, that pretty much eliminates the Rs, because it would then point to the profile of someone who doesn't just watch a few movies some of which include stories about people who abduct and kill, but someone who is pretty much into the whole murder thing.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

And people, don't bite off the hand that feeds you. If there's a link with the Zodiac killings, that pretty much eliminates the Rs, because it would then point to the profile of someone who doesn't just watch a few movies some of which include stories about people who abduct and kill, but someone who is pretty much into the whole murder thing.

Thanks you reminded me of a profile thing I need to add to the profile thread. They said back in 1997 that the ransom note author was obsessed with crime movies.

"JonBenet's killer appears to be obsessed with techno-crime movies and phrases from them," the Ramseys say in the ad.

BTW, question for RDI: Did anybody besides the R's place full page ads or offer large rewards for information? Because I've been reading here a lot that the R's did nothing when really they did more than anybody. Developing and publishing a profile of the killer was more than anybody else did. JMO.

 

[James50]

Going back now over the Zodiac cases (it's been years since I even looked at them), I take back what I said about the RN being similar to anything the perp wrote. The Zodiac perp wrote letters, not RNs. Roy, you were right after all. I don't even know what I was thinking. About the only similarity is that both wrote long notes.

 

[Ravyn]

You know,would be nice if for once all key players forget about their freaking EGO'S and work together.(cops,JR,all the rest)That should have happened in the first place.Maybe it's too late.And that's something that I will NEVER ever get.I can understand the cops behaviour,not that I agree with it.But the R's??Why all the EGO fights.This wasn't about THEM,it was about JB.If they're innocent why was it about THEM all the time???There are signs that someone was abusing your child and you just ignore it because that evidence might point to you at first?SO WHAT???!!!That's why you hired top lawyers!So they can make sure you're not accused for something you didn't do.Why ignore the obvious then?Why is L,Smit saying it was a sadistic pedo if you on the other hand IGNORE abuse and assault?Why do you say there's no evidence of sexual assault?



I will never get it.Never.Sorry.

I feel the same...The thing that gets to me with the intruder there was times the R's knock the idea down...And if the intruder is there makes me wonder why, could they might had known them.... But no matter how anyone looks at this the intruder(s) had access to the house and with no fighting from JB she knew this person....

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Holdon, what's your opinion of the Zodiac link? Keep in mind, by the way, that I'm not saying that he 's trying to be the Zodiac killer, but only that he has borrowed from him and other such killers. I think Roy read rather more into my post than I intended.

If he borrowed from him it may have been involuntary. The ransom note, with the beheading a child remark, is strikingly similar to the Zodiac's rantings. Its as if they are warning people of how $#%#ed up they are.

Thanks for the comparison, though and I borrowed this:

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/notorious/zodiac/look_10.html

The FBI's Crime Classification Manual describes three forms of offender behavior at the crime scene. "Modus Operandi" is defined as the actions necessary to commit a crime and ensure a successful escape. The two Vallejo attacks, for instance, show a consistent blitz-style MO using a handgun and followed by a quick, controlled retreat. The MO at Lake Berryessa is superficially closer in style to the Riverside attack, which was executed with a knife and preceded by some kind of verbal interchange between killer and victim, but the differences are apparent on examination: Bates' killer was ill-prepared for his attack, using only a small pocketknife on a young woman who fought back vigorously, whereas the Zodiac went to great lengths to immobilize his victims at the lake. In fact, it seems that the man who killed Cheri Jo Bates wasn't even sure that he would kill her, having conversed with her for over an hour before he lost control and stabbed her -- at Lake Berryessa, there can be little doubt as to the Zodiac's intentions. Modus Operandi is learned, pragmatic behavior, and can be improved upon with experience, as shown by the foresight evinced by the killer when he foiled a potential call-back from the Napa police switchboard by leaving the phone off the hook. The Zodiac also became more audacious in attacking at dusk in an open area, though he was careful to choose one that was fairly isolated. Willful alteration of the crime scene in order to confuse or mislead investigators is called "staging," and is usually seen in cases where the killer and victim are acquainted with one another: oftentimes, the offender will attempt to make the crime appear to be a random rape or robbery gone wrong. This phenomenon does not seem present in the Zodiac case, unless one counts the letters as a form of staging, having been deliberately crafted to give an impression of their author as a dyslexic Gilbert and Sullivan fan. Any action taken by the offender that is unnecessary to the crime's completion, or is performed solely to gratify his own psychological needs, is called "personation." The elaborate hood, the jailbreak lie and the demand for money and car keys are examples of personation. Repeated examples of the same personation by the same offender are called a "signature," and this occurred both clinically and literally on the car door: the crossed-circle design appeared at the foot of every letter from the Zodiac between 1969 and 1971. The phone call was another aspect of the signature, mirroring calls made to police in Riverside and Vallejo, and totally unnecessary to his escape.

 

[Maikai]

If he borrowed from him it may have been involuntary. The ransom note, with the beheading a child remark, is strikingly similar to the Zodiac's rantings. Its as if they are warning people of how $#%#ed up they are.

The movie "Seven" with Kevin Spacey also had a reference to beheading--Brad Pitt's wife in the movie--Gwynth Paltrow--was beheaded at the end, with the last deadly sin being Spacey coveted Pitt's life. There is also a reference to "proper burial" in the film. If the ransom note is based on multiple movies--perhaps to be clever---then the beheading and proper burial could be a reference to that movie.

 

[Roy23]

Going back now over the Zodiac cases (it's been years since I even looked at them), I take back what I said about the RN being similar to anything the perp wrote. The Zodiac perp wrote letters, not RNs. Roy, you were right after all. I don't even know what I was thinking. About the only similarity is that both wrote long notes.

No problem, James.

It is funny that Zodiac comes up, though, because JBR and Zodiac cases are now the two most important cases that I would like to see solved. For a long time, the Green River Killer held that distinction as well as BTK. But now, it is these two that would love to see resolved.

 

[coco puff]

I’m going to take a stab at this.

If IDI then:

They have to be on the smaller side to get in the window but big enough to carry JBR around while she was not conscious.

They would have had to know the Ramsey’s holiday schedule, or really have been lucky because:
*What if they were to have had friends or family stay with them and needed a spare bedroom down stairs?
*What if sleeping habits and routines change during the holidays and JBR slept with her parents or in her brothers room that night
*What if the family stayed up late Christmas night admiring/playing with their new toys
*What if the Ramsey’s went to visit their family for a few days, like a lot of us do at Christmas and just never came home that night at all
*What if they had come home very late but got up very early? No time to do the deed.
*What if JBR had stayed overnight with her cousins that night?

They would have to know the materials available to them to write the ransom note and also to know that the house alarm system was not in use. They would have also know that they would have had time to compose it. This may indicate a irrational, spur of the moment, crime of opportunity.

They had to have been very alert and coherent to enter and move around the dark house without creating noise, being detected, or leaving evidence. This indicates that drugs were probably not in use by the intruder at the time. If they did the crime because they were high or drunk, they were in the house long enough before the Ramsey’s came home to come off the high, in which case they would probably abort their plan of attack.

They weren’t likely pedophiles because there was no trace of semen or saliva. What’s left? Even if you masturbate in your pants while killing the child, it would have left fibers around her body. The is really a lot of work to go through to commit vaginal penetration of part of a paintbrush (that you didn’t even know would be available to you) or digital penetration that was not even aggressive enough to leave skin cells. It would seem that the intruder wanted her dead more then they wanted to have sex with her, otherwise they would have exited the house with her in their arms and to leave the intruder free to offend her without the risk of getting caught.

IMO

 

[BBB167893]

Same to ya, Holdon:crazy:

Oh, I don't know. I can think of a similarity to another case on my side of it.

Allow me to quote from chapter three:

In short, the note seems to be an attempt to play on popular fears, much the way Susan Smith tried to play on popular fears of young black men in the South when she described the man who supposedly carjacked her and took off with her sons as little more than a racist caricature of a jive-talking gangsta. Patsy Ramsey, during the New Years Day CNN plea, tried to play on those same fears when she told all mothers across America to "hold your babies close. There's a killer out there."

 

[BBB167893]

BTW, question for RDI: Did anybody besides the R's place full page ads or offer large rewards for information?

Let's see. The Whites petitioned the governor.

Because I've been reading here a lot that the R's did nothing when really they did more than anybody. Developing and publishing a profile of the killer was more than anybody else did. JMO.

Don't fool yourself, HOTYH. Parents who had a LOT less than they did have done a lot more. Want me to name some of them?

Moreover, let's take a look at some of those things they did:

Probably the lowest point came in 2000 when the Ramseys announced that they were starting a foundation dedicated to helping children. Not just the ones victimized by violence, but children whose parents wished for them to have a "proper spiritual upbringing." They called it the SHOES Foundation. They were probably inspired by Lou Smit's favorite saying, "Who will stand in the victim's shoes?" Not only did it not pull in anywhere near the level of money it would have needed just to stay in operation, but according to the Internal Revenue Service documents, cheerfully provided us by www.thesmokinggun.com, the Ramseys themselves contributed almost none of their own money to it. Worst of all, they used the proceeds from their book, in which they promised all proceeds would go toward the foundation, to fund more of their legal defense and public relations functions, much of which took the form of a flyer campaign maligning the police. How low can you get?

 

[BBB167893]

My pleasure! I'm not the first person who has said that the parts I highlighted (JR's and yours) almost sound like JR was describing himself.



Problem is, it's not just "those with a predisposition to RDI."

Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

While I'm waiting on that, let me just say that the Zodiac case was probably as well-known in 1996 as it is right now. Wouldn't be too hard for someone to know the rudiments of it.

 

[Roy23]

Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

While I'm waiting on that, let me just say that the Zodiac case was probably as well-known in 1996 as it is right now. Wouldn't be too hard for someone to know the rudiments of it.

Many suspects have come and gone since 1996. The same could be said about BTK and the Green River Killer as well.

 

[BBB167893]

Many suspects have come and gone since 1996. The same could be said about BTK and the Green River Killer as well.

Let's not go too far afield.

 

[James50]

Let's see. The Whites petitioned the governor.



Don't fool yourself, HOTYH. Parents who had a LOT less than they did have done a lot more. Want me to name some of them?

Moreover, let's take a look at some of those things they did:

Probably the lowest point came in 2000 when the Ramseys announced that they were starting a foundation dedicated to helping children. Not just the ones victimized by violence, but children whose parents wished for them to have a "proper spiritual upbringing." They called it the SHOES Foundation. They were probably inspired by Lou Smit's favorite saying, "Who will stand in the victim's shoes?" Not only did it not pull in anywhere near the level of money it would have needed just to stay in operation, but according to the Internal Revenue Service documents, cheerfully provided us by www.thesmokinggun.com, the Ramseys themselves contributed almost none of their own money to it. Worst of all, they used the proceeds from their book, in which they promised all proceeds would go toward the foundation, to fund more of their legal defense and public relations functions, much of which took the form of a flyer campaign maligning the police. How low can you get?

I don't think any of that proves very much.

 

[James50]

I’m going to take a stab at this. If IDI then:They have to be on the smaller side to get in the window but big enough to carry JBR around while she was not conscious.

True, unless he didn't plan to kidnap her. I don't believe this was a kidnapping, but a straight murder staged as a botched kidnapping.

They would have had to know the Ramsey’s holiday schedule, or really have been lucky because:
*What if they were to have had friends or family stay with them and needed a spare bedroom down stairs?

Someone who makes B&E a profession will have watched the family for weeks and even months before making a move. Details like that are easy enough for him to find out in advance, eg: from phone taps, keeping in mind that he claimed to be "familiar with police counter-measures", and there's no reason to believe that wasn't true. In the case of a B&E with a view to commit murder, a professional will have thoroughly done his homework beforehand.

Then again, those are the risks they take.

*What if sleeping habits and routines change during the holidays and JBR slept with her parents or in her brothers room that night

A pro can enter your bedroom in the dead of night and walk off with just about everything in it without you knowing a thing about it 'til sunrise

*What if the family stayed up late Christmas night admiring/playing with their new toys

A family with young kids? Highly doubtful the kids would have been able to keep their eyes open much past midnight. And again that's the kind of risk an intruder will take. If something had gone wrong with his plan the first night, he would have simply gone home and tried again another night.

*What if the Ramsey’s went to visit their family for a few days, like a lot of us do at Christmas and just never came home that night at all

Boxing Day is a good day to choose for that precise reason. Xmas is over and everyone's tired. Not likely they're about to take off on a trip right away and at night. Also the perp could have been watching from a stake-out position and watched to see if the family took suitcases etc to the car. Otherwise, as above. This is really just another planning detail. And assuming months of planning went into this as is highly likely, that's hardly a detail they would have overlooked.

*What if they had come home very late but got up very early? No time to do the deed.

A family with young kids is hardly likely to come home very late. Midnight would be really pushing it. No perp will strike much before the so-called witching hours (1.30 a.m. - 4.30 a.m), when most people are sound asleep.

As for the chance that the Rs might get up early. They did get up early (or at least Patsy did), and the perp would have planned for that. And indeed, I believe the RN was written precisely to slow down the Rs in case they woke up early, went to JB's room, saw her missing, searched the house and called the police too soon before he had a chance to do the deed and make his getawar. By tricking them into thinkine she had been kidnapped, no one was likely to search the basement right away, and indeed no one did or else they didnt do a thorough search at first.

The note was also a way to discourage them from calling the police too fast. They would see a low asking figure ($118, 000) and maybe figure it was just worthwhile paying it without calling the cops so as to be sure to get JB back. The perp would already have known they could afford it from his knowledge of theirr finances. Using that precise figure was also a way to signal to the Rs that he had knowledge of their affairs that he might use against them if they didn't co-operate (i.e. not call the cops). The RN goes on at length to try to scare them into not calling the police. Making them think there was a group of them and not just one actor, was another scare tactic. Highly unlikely that Patsy was thinking about all of this just to cover up a mistake.

*What if JBR had stayed overnight with her cousins that night?

As above. Just another planning detail.

They would have to know the materials available to them to write the ransom note and also to know that the house alarm system was not in use.[They would have also know that they would have had time to compose it. This may indicate a irrational, spur of the moment, crime of opportunity

Almost every home has paper and pens lying around and the perp had hours to find some. But just in case, he might have brought his own. Or the RN might have been something he only thought about when he was in the house and saw the pad. As this was not a kidnap as such, the RN was not an indispensible part of his plan.

They had to have been very alert and coherent to enter and move around the dark house without creating noise, being detected, or leaving evidence.

First of all, in most cases a pro won't make a move until the witching hours (between 1.30 a.m. and 4. 30 a.m.) when most householders will be in deep R.E.M. sleep. Secondly, it's their job to move around soundlessly. That's all part of what a professional criminal does. As for evidence, they did leave evidence.

This indicates that drugs were probably not in use by the intruder at the time.If they did the crime because they were high or drunk, they were in the house long enough before the Ramsey’s came home to come off the high, in which case they would probably abort their plan of attack.

I don't think this crime was committed because the perp was either high or drunk.

They weren’t likely pedophiles because there was no trace of semen or saliva. What’s left? Even if you masturbate in your pants while killing the child, it would have left fibers around her body. The is really a lot of work to go through to commit vaginal penetration of part of a paintbrush (that you didn’t even know would be available to you) or digital penetration that was not even aggressive enough to leave skin cells.

IMO, this was not a sex killing as such, but a murder with gratuitous sex elements thrown in. A pro would have used gloves.

It would seem that the intruder wanted her dead more then they wanted to have sex with her, otherwise they would have exited the house with her in their arms and to leave the intruder free to offend her without the risk of getting caught.

Exactly. You got it.

 

[James50]

Another point that is overlooked is that Xmas is a time when many crimes are committed especially B&E. For many reasons it was the perfect day for a murder, if I could be so crude. The police would have been overstretched. People generally would have been in a holiday mood, relaxed and filled with alcohol. I don't think there was a better day for an intruder to have done this. Which strongly suggests that this was no random accident. Yet the Rs had nothing to gain by planning it for that day, whereas an intruder certainly did.

 

[coco puff]

Another point that is overlooked is that Xmas is a time when many crimes are committed especially B&E. For many reasons it was the perfect day for a murder, if I could be so crude. The police would have been overstretched. People generally would have been in a holiday mood, relaxed and filled with alcohol. I don't think there was a better day for an intruder to have done this. Which strongly suggests that this was no random accident. Yet the Rs had nothing to gain by planning it for that day, whereas an intruder certainly did.

You have some good points James. However, in my house around the holidays, we'd have stacks of family in and out all night. Kids were playing in basements (with no alcohol involved), aunts and uncles were dropping presents and food off in the downstairs refrig. Grandma came and stayed with us. There is no way anyone would have gone undetected in a house full of kids getting into every nook and cranny by playing hide and seek and seeing who can stay up the lastest. I just can't see it. I just dont think the crime was planned for this day.

Also, you say that they would have used gloves. Why the DNA then? Anyway, you have some good thoughts James.

 

[Sophie]

Thing about Christmas is that it is a quiet time of year with people at home with family. Could an intruder really expect to gain access to a house without neighbours seeing him and without next door's dog barking to the high heavens? Could an intruder really expect to find JBR's room, feed her pineapple, write a ransom note, bash her head in (which, I'm told by an A&E doctor could conceivably have been almost as loud as a gunshot), strangle her, molest her, re-dress her and exit the house without being heard by a single person in the house? The Ramsey house was (by all accounts) much smaller than the mansion it is typically described as being.

Breaking and entering when people are at parties etc may be common at Christmas but also common are family snits escalating into violence when stressed people who aren't used to drinking get tipsy on a thimbleful of sherry and just snap. In fact, the alcohol question was one which ST and TT probably mishandled during the interview: the fact that PR didn't drink much that day doesn't matter, what matters is the effect that a small amount of alcohol would have on a normally abstemious person.

 

[coco puff]

You can case the house for months to get an idea of what the normal activities of the family are so you can B & E to do whatever, but nothing is normal about Christmas day/evening activities. All of the surveillance in the world would not have helped to understand what people and their families do on the holidays.