Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #1

[jjenny]

I'm not Swamp Mama, but I used the same phrase/ term in my post above.

What I meant by "die" is permanent and irreversible cardiac arrest. I used a colloquial phrase in that post, rather than a medical one.

At some point, her heart will stop even if she is on the ventilator.

At what point? My understanding that could take years. She is brain dead. No function whatsoever in the brain. Ventillator is pumping oxygen into her heart.
But as long as ventillator is on, why would her heart stop?

 

[concernedmother]

http://www.14news.com/story/2429424...r&utm_content=bufferef55e&utm_medium=facebook
A judge on Tuesday ruled that a 13-year-old Northern California girl declared brain dead after suffering complications following a tonsillectomy can be taken off life support.

But Alameda County Superior Court Judge Evelio Grillo gave Jahi McMath's family until 5 p.m. Dec. 30 to file an appeal. She will stay on life support until then.

Relatives said the family has not decided if they would keep fighting.

"It's Christmas Eve, there is still time for a miracle," said Omari Sealey, the girl's uncle. He said the family would discuss and decide later whether to appeal or to allow the hospital to remove the girl from the ventilator.


This family had one hell of a shock thrown at them. I dont blame them for wanting second opinions or whatever they need before they pull the plug. I would want to know I did everything I could for my child. They need this last Christmas with their child. Im glad the judge gave them some time. Maybe after Christmas they will decide to let go. This is their child and really it should be their decision.

 

[gitana1]

http://www.14news.com/story/2429424...r&utm_content=bufferef55e&utm_medium=facebook
A judge on Tuesday ruled that a 13-year-old Northern California girl declared brain dead after suffering complications following a tonsillectomy can be taken off life support.

But Alameda County Superior Court Judge Evelio Grillo gave Jahi McMath's family until 5 p.m. Dec. 30 to file an appeal. She will stay on life support until then.

Relatives said the family has not decided if they would keep fighting.

"It's Christmas Eve, there is still time for a miracle," said Omari Sealey, the girl's uncle. He said the family would discuss and decide later whether to appeal or to allow the hospital to remove the girl from the ventilator.


This family had one hell of a shock thrown at them. I dont blame them for wanting second opinions or whatever they need before they pull the plug. I would want to know I did everything I could for my child. They need this last Christmas with their child. Im glad the judge gave them some time. Maybe after Christmas they will decide to let go. This is their child and really it should be their decision.

That's all I'm saying. I'm very logical. You don't get far in law without being logical. But you don't get far in life, IMO, without empathy. I don't know how many on here weighing in have experienced the sudden death of a child or someone super super close who was too young to die. But it can make a person feel and think and do things they never thought they would. I guess I feel very protective of the extreme vulnerability of people in the throes of such catastrophic grief. Leave them alone. Let them figure it out. We are all humans and should support one another. Sometimes there is more to life than dollar signs and cold science.

 

[SwampMama]

She is already legally dead. Her brain has no function.
Machine is pumping for her.
So I am not sure what you mean by "she will die soon."

I'm not Swamp Mama, but I used the same phrase/ term in my post above.


Thanks, K_Z, I figured that what I meant was obvious. You explained it simply and easily.

What I meant by "die" is permanent and irreversible cardiac arrest. I used a colloquial phrase in that post, rather than a medical one.

At some point, her heart will stop even if she is on the ventilator.

Obviously wording here is hard but I think that most people understand what I meant. Her parents do not consider her "dead so I meant that soon enough, her health will fail to a point where even her family acknowledges her "death".

I believe that she is already essentially and legally "dead". So it is tricky for me to come up with the proper phrasing to describe the fact that her organs will fail and that life support will soon no longer be enough to keep her breathing.

That is what I meant by "she will die soon". Her organs will die, the heart will fail, the vent will be of no use. Soon enough, even if her family gets the right to keep her ventilator on, her organs will fail, she will go into cardiac arrest , get an infection or some other crisis and will cease to have a heart beat. Soon enough she will be "even deader or dead enough" for her family to finally realize that she is dead and irretrievably gone and that need to accept it.

 

[SophieRose]

Just so incredibly sad.
http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking...t-divisive-battle-over-jahi-mcmath-is-mothers

"Everyone says it's not my fault," Winkfield said on Monday, in her most extensive interview so far about the events that have propelled her and her family into a highly publicized, bitterly divisive battle with Children's Hospital Oakland. "But I drove her here. I made the appointment. I got the second opinion.

"It was me. It was all me," Winkfield said, wiping away tears that have been flowing for two weeks. "She didn't do it. She just followed what I said. So I feel like it would be so wrong of me to let them pull that plug on her."

 

[Cherry]

When my father died at a very young age of 42; he was kept alive for a week brain dead. I was against it then; as I had to watch this; and I'm against it now. Brain dead means NOT COMPATIBLE WITH LIFE. That is the best description; there are no miracles, you can't all of a sudden become Un brain dead. So while I feel horrible for the family; they need to be humane. Watching my father lie there for a week until his organs failed, and pneumonia set in was a really horrifying thing esp for a young girl. I advise anyone to be humane...to do the right thing and let your loved one go instead of the option my mother chose. No one wants to remember their loved one that way. And of course, that is what I remember most.

For the courts to step in I feel is completely Wrong, for the parents not to do the right thing; I also feel is inhumane. I guess that's the best way I can put it. Brain dead is flat line in the brain, no coming back, vegetative state, for ever. It's no way to be "kept" alive. I believe that it's inhumane to do this to anyone. We do more for our animals than we do for our loved ones. Sadly. This family seems to be in as much denial as my own mother was. And it's sad to watch it play out. xxoo

 

[shana]

Just so incredibly sad.
http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-...ath-is-mothers

Incredibly sad...and moving as well. This is a must-read article, imo. I've been following this situation for several days but never knew the details about Mrs. Winkfield's feelings, her livelihood, and more.

Thank you for linking to it, SophieRose

My wish is that someone can help Jahi's mother find a way to pardon herself and let her child go. Surely there is a person within her circle who could artfully do this, and give Mrs. Winkfield permission to accept the truth with grace and dignity.

 

[Isabelle]

Okay, so they didn't move more quickly than protocol. It changes little to me. The family began seeking help before the 5 days. I don't get the impatience in this case on the part of people not related to this heartbroken family. Walk a mile. See how you react if it's your little girl. Five days may just not be enough for you to accept that the child you assured everything would be okay, the child that was breathing, talking, living, scared, just days before, is now suddenly gone forever, despite the fact that her body remains warm and she looks like she's sleeping. What stake do any of us have in this? It's like this angry determination that they accept this death and move on. Walk a mile.

From my experience, they way I see the push to get the child off the ventilator and out of the building as soon as possible is to prevent the truth from making its way to the family. As an RN, I would believe something went terribly wrong and rapid action was not taken to correct the problem that resulted in this child's death.

 

[Herat]

I agree with the poster upthread that she needs to be moved out of the ICU and into a more private floor and setting. The hospital has been exceedingly accommodating in providing resources for this family, but this all needs to start to be cut back- fewer family members allowed in the room, only a few key people allowed 24/7 access.

I also feel enormously for the nurses, physicians, respiratory therapists, physical therapists who have to care for her in the midst of this all. It is not an easy situation for any of them.

 

[Herat]

Isabelle, I strongly disagree with you.

As an RN, you should understand the concept of criteria for treatment and care. This child does not need ICU care, she needs to be in a long-term acute care center (LTAC) for ventilator support, after a tracheostomy. She does not need acute inpatient care.

I don't see that the hospital has in any way tried to obfusticate the events. They have not in any way attempted to hide the issues. The cause of her post-surgical event can only be determined by an autopsy. The coroner's office will take jurisdiction, when her lungs and heart finally fail.

This family is only prolonging their pain and making an even bigger mess of this.

 

[SwampMama]

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking...t-divisive-battle-over-jahi-mcmath-is-mothers

.....the lobby has been a chaotic and sometimes unscrupulous place, where throngs of well-wishers bring cards and flowers, pastors pray and bring Bible verses and strangers show up offering incense and oils and demand to lay their healing hands on Jahi. They speak in tongues on the sidewalk. Some say they're the girl's uncle or grandmother and somehow get into the hallways of hospital's third floor. One woman waited in the corridor for 10 hours. "I want to see your daughter and touch her," the woman told Winkfield. When Winkfield said no, the woman replied, "Then I want to be close to you." She watched Winkfield sleep.

Finally, the family created a secret password

"I can't go down for fresh air. There are so many prayer rugs and statues and incense and all these directions of how to wake her," she said earlier this week. "We're dealing with a lot of unsavory people."

Ok, this is a problem. I'm sorry but there are other patient's at the hospital and their rights are no less important than Jahi's. A hospital should be a quiet, UNchaotic place for patients and family. For there to be 12 people sleeping in the waiting room at night for 2 weeks is a bit much. For there to be crowds of people lounging around in and outside the hospital offering their miracle cures and relics, speaking in tongues and lying to get upstairs is outrageous. That is a security nightmare and a HUGE liability and problem for the hospital.

It seems Jahi's family doesn't like the situation but THEY created this atmosphere when they put out a public call for people and they marched on the hospital. They brought people to a place that should be a quiet and private place for patients and their families. Their march should have been at the courthouse. They asked for people to come and show their presence at the hospital as a way to pressure them to keep Jahi on life support. (No, they didn't state it that way but it is clear)

I can't feel too badly that Jahi's family doesn't like it? They need to consider that there are other families with critically ill children or dying children there too who are just as plagued with the odd crowd who had NOTHING to do with why those people are there but are having to deal with it nevertheless.

 

[SophieRose]

http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/24/health/jahi-mcmath-girl-brain-dead/

The judge has ruled that Jahi will remain on life support at least until December 30. Family members said they planned to spend Christmas in her hospital room, opening gifts and sipping hot chocolate.

snip

Attorney Christopher Dolan said family members need to evaluate what the judge said on Tuesday before they decide on their next move.

"This involves some very serious religious beliefs about life and death," he said.

But he said he hoped the judge's decision sends a message to hospitals everywhere: "The parents come first."

"What this case represents legally is that parents can say no when a hospital says, 'We're pulling the plug.' They thought that a hospital shouldn't tell them their child was going to be removed from a ventilator," Dolan told reporters.

 

[Linda7NJ]

When my father died at a very young age of 42; he was kept alive for a week brain dead. I was against it then; as I had to watch this; and I'm against it now. Brain dead means NOT COMPATIBLE WITH LIFE. That is the best description; there are no miracles, you can't all of a sudden become Un brain dead. So while I feel horrible for the family; they need to be humane. Watching my father lie there for a week until his organs failed, and pneumonia set in was a really horrifying thing esp for a young girl. I advise anyone to be humane...to do the right thing and let your loved one go instead of the option my mother chose. No one wants to remember their loved one that way. And of course, that is what I remember most.

For the courts to step in I feel is completely Wrong, for the parents not to do the right thing; I also feel is inhumane. I guess that's the best way I can put it. Brain dead is flat line in the brain, no coming back, vegetative state, for ever. It's no way to be "kept" alive. I believe that it's inhumane to do this to anyone. We do more for our animals than we do for our loved ones. Sadly. This family seems to be in as much denial as my own mother was. And it's sad to watch it play out. xxoo

I feel as you do. I don't fear death. I accept it as a inevitable part of life. I've been quite open in discussions with my family growing up and now that I'm married. I'm all about quality of life too.

That said... I still have nothing but compassion for this family. I respect their pain and their need to see it through. IMO their daughter is already gone. This about them being able to find some measure of peace and the strength to move on. If they need time, let them have it. Allow them to accept and grieve their way.


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[BeginnersLuck]

I just got done reading a great deal of information, including the lengthy discussion the physicians were having on how to handle these types of situations where family members don't want to let loved ones go, that have been declared brain dead.

I thought of a friend, who committed suicide with a gunshot to her head. She was brain dead but her heart was still beating. The injuries were obvious though, because they could be seen. When a loved one is lying there and looks peaceful, has a heart beat and feels warm, the approach a medical provider uses when addressing the family can certainly make a big difference on how they may react. Because of the appearance of the body, if the family is given the decision on withdrawal of the ventilator, they may feel as though they are making the choice to end the persons life. This is why, IMO, it is better for medical providers to tell families they have such & such amount of time to say goodbye.

Reading the physicians discussion, most seem to state that they have no problems with families objecting to withdrawal of the ventilator. One physician did say that they encountered objections from family members once or twice a month at their hospital and they had no choice but to withdraw the ventilator against the families wishes.

There seems to also be an issue of ethics in the medical community and the responsibility that medical providers have toward the care of the now dead patient. A issue of dignity for the deceased but also compassion for the family.

This is the only form of true death, that can appear to be life due to artificial means.

I've found the discussion quite informative. I'm also very sad to see, a great deal of misinformation on the internet that deters organ donations that can save the lives of others. Now I think I understand where some of the misconceptions have come from, in other cases that I have read about.

I agree with other posters about the hospital moving Jahi to another more peaceful area, out of ICU, where her family can have some privacy.

 

[shana]

{snip}

I don't see that the hospital has in any way tried to obfusticate the events. They have not in any way attempted to hide the issues. The cause of her post-surgical event can only be determined by an autopsy. The coroner's office will take jurisdiction, when her lungs and heart finally fail.
{snip}

Not only has the hospital NOT tried to obfuscate the events but it is barred from stating its case until and if the family gives permission. I find this significant, knowing that only one side of the story has been revealed to the public.

I had thought as well that prolonging her "death" would make it increasingly more difficult at autopsy to determine its cause.

 

[SwampMama]

From my experience, they way I see the push to get the child off the ventilator and out of the building as soon as possible is to prevent the truth from making its way to the family. As an RN, I would believe something went terribly wrong and rapid action was not taken to correct the problem that resulted in this child's death.

I totally respect your opinion, especially based as your experiences as an RN. But to me, it seemed that removing the vent and allowing the inevitable to take place was done according to protocol as there is NO hope.

But I saw it differently. I thought that if they were trying to cover up something, wouldn't giving Jahi extra time on the vent give her throat and such time to heal or somehow deteriorate the fresh injuries that could be clearly seen and documented in an autopsy?

That extra time... could it also mean that Jahi could be classified with another contributory/secondaty cause of death (pneumonia, infection, heartfailure, etc) rather than as a very direct immediate result of surgery?

So I can kind of see it both ways but I would think if they knew there was a blatant negligent malpractice suit that they would hardly be in a rush to push it to the legal arena.

I guess we will have to wait until the hospital is allowed to release her records- and right now her family refuses to do so.

 

[shana]

{snip}

I guess we will have to wait until the hospital is allowed to release her records- and right now her family refuses to do so.

And WHY is that?

I find it highly troubling.

 

[Boytwnmom]

but I cannot demand it of this mother. I cannot criticize her for whatever pleas she has issued publicly or privately, even if they bring people to the hospital and annoy others. I can only hope that I never have to experience what she is experiencing and the fact that I haven't had to precludes me from pontificating about what she should do. Part of this is medical-we can extend "life", even when "life" is lifeless. How can anyone imagine this is easily comprehensible to grieving and guilt ridden parents.

All I had to do was read this line:

She doesn't want to believe the hospital officials who say her daughter is medically and legally dead. They are the same people who said her daughter would emerge out of surgery just fine and go home the next day.

to understand that this mother should not just be dismissed. The same medicine that screwed up routine surgery cannot be easily trusted to indisputably proclaim that this child with a still beating heart is truly dead. Do we all accept she is dead? Sure. We have no stake. But I find empathy comes easily here. Does this mean I think she should be kept alive indefinitely? No. But this family has needs that deserve to be met by this hospital. There are ways to deal with grieving people in such a situation and those methods should be brought to bear.
http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_24791005/lost-divisive-battle-over-jahi-mcmath-is-mothers

That's all I'm saying. I'm very logical. You don't get far in law without being logical. But you don't get far in life, IMO, without empathy. I don't know how many on here weighing in have experienced the sudden death of a child or someone super super close who was too young to die. But it can make a person feel and think and do things they never thought they would. I guess I feel very protective of the extreme vulnerability of people in the throes of such catastrophic grief. Leave them alone. Let them figure it out. We are all humans and should support one another. Sometimes there is more to life than dollar signs and cold science.

 

[Trino]

I'm trying to logicial...

From news stories I've noted the mother works at Home Depot; there are, including Jahi, 4 children; there is a step-father. Most likely, they have insurance, but what will happen when the insurance will no longer pay? Is the insurance still paying?

It seems Jahi, if the mother refuses to accept a court decision, will need to be moved to another facility, and we are talking expensive. It's sad when it comes down to dollars and cents, but this may do so. There are 3 other children to financially consider, as well as the family unit.

I think we can anticipate a law suit, which should afford the family some compensation, but I would doubt the hospital would be required to pay to keep Jahi on life support forever.

 

[SwampMama]

My post about the crowds in the hospital was not so much criticizing the family, because I believe my extensive and well researched post reflect that I have a lot of empathy and obviously do care.

My point was meant more to mean that I was also extending my empathy and concern to OTHER families who are facing a terminally or chronically ill or gravely injured, or even dying child at the hospital. Those such families are facing many of the same issues but they receive no such attention, sympathy or special requests. No one is fighting for their kids, holding rallies or considering THEIR situation. those families and children deserve no less sympathy that Jahi.

My heart goes out to those families as well and I do find it somewhat disrespectful for there to be banners and signs promoting Jahi and how important she is, and nothing about the hundreds of other patients and families except for the trouble they must deal with from the crowds.

Small children who are dealing with potentially life threatening conditions are being affected by this! They see what is going on. Do they need to know what happened to Jahi? They do not, they have enough to worry about dealing with their illness or injuries.

Those children and their loved ones matter as well. I understand they have different situations but their parents ache no less than Jahi's mom over the inevitable death or disability that many of those children face. At the very least, the deserve respect and having the hospital turned into a media circus with people offering oils and touches as miracles that they say will save Jahi (or anyone else) is NOT respectful. No parent needs to deal with that.