Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #1

[SophieRose]

Here's a recent case in Canada where two doctors wanted to disconnect the vent on a man whose diagnosis was “minimally conscious,” originally vegetative, severely brain-damaged but not brain dead. A Shia Muslim, his wife said not only was he getting better but that their religion says life ends when the heart beat stops. In Oct 2013 the Canadian court ruled that the family had the final decision. In Canada a single night in the ICU costs about $2500, a year is $1 million.

http://www.torontolife.com/informer/features/2012/11/27/a-life-interrupted/

Court Ruling
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/...today_rules_if_doctors_can_pull_the_plug.html

 

[otto]

The fact is though this is really no different than someone who has died of a heart attack, cancer or any other condition. The only difference is this child is technically dead and it's an illusion, because a oxygen machine is able to keep her "appear" to be still alive. Modern day medicine
..it's a machine...she is dead..

Medical ethics always seems to be really on the border. Doctors are either aborting 24 week old fetuses, or using incubators to keep premature 22 week fetuses alive. They're either doing everything they can with quadruple bypasses on octogenarians, or declaring children dead because the brain no longer functions. Presumably the broken heart is easier to fix.

I'd like to know if she can breath on her own.

 

[otto]

Here's a recent case in Canada where two doctors wanted to disconnect the vent on a man whose diagnosis was “minimally conscious,” originally vegetative, severely brain-damaged but not brain dead. A Shia Muslim, his wife said not only was he getting better but that their religion says life ends when the heart beat stops. In Oct 2013 the Canadian court ruled that the family had the final decision. In Canada a single night in the ICU costs about $2500, a year is $1 million.

http://www.torontolife.com/informer/features/2012/11/27/a-life-interrupted/

Court Ruling
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/...today_rules_if_doctors_can_pull_the_plug.html

That would be the benefit of national health care system. I wonder if the new US system will work as well.

 

[SwampMama]

I'm a little suprised that there's not more religious discussion showing up on the net about this. It can't change the medical and legal stand points, but I personally want to know when the soul is released from all connections to the body. Is it when the brain ceases to support bodily functions or when the heart ceases to pump blood. I'm coming around to it being when that last breath was taken just as the brain function ceased to support life.

Does the Catholic Church believe that the soul could leave the body prior to imminent death? http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?number=582037
"It depends on what you mean by death. Biologically it is the irreversable cessation of certain bodily processes, traditionally heart function and respiration, and more recently, brain death (BBM). If it is reversible through CPR or shock or other means, then the person is not biologically dead. They may be clinically dead (meaning, by measurement no life is detected), but the very fact they revive shows that sufficient biological processes remain to permit life.

Metaphysically, the person is dead when the soul separates from the body. That is likely to be at or shortly after the time of biological death, but the Church does not assume that it occurs imemdiately after biological death. While the body remains warm, even if biological death has occured, sacraments such as anointing may be given conditionally "IF you are present I anoint you etc."

So, the soul both cannot and does not leave the body prior to metaphysical death, which comes no sooner than, and perhaps after, the irreversible cessation of biological life."

When declared brain death, when does the soul leave the body?
http://ph.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110109053010AAfNevj

Even among people who believe that a soul survives death, there is no consensus concerning the moment at which it leaves, and indeed, it is possible that the time of departure varies from one individual to another.

Some souls leave at the first opportunity, as soon as heart or brain activity stops. Others may linger for a considerable time, still attached to mortal life, before finally giving up and leaving. In the case of near-death experiences, the soul apparently leaves for a while, but then decides to come back before the body has completely stopped functioning.

When does the soul leave the body?
http://carm.org/soul-leave-body

This next one has some good info that Christians should NOT attempt to cling to artificial life with technological means, saying that
"The Bible gives no instructions that Christians are to do everything possible to extend life. Instead Christians are to accept that life contains adversity (Job 2:10). ". Also particularly informative is the statement "Medical life support procedures being utilized to keep blood flowing to organs donated to transplant services does not change the fact that once brain activity has ceased death has been medically certified. Given the scenario presented above it is reasonable to conclude that the soul has gone on to be with the Lord."

But in the end, it really is a matter of personal belief. My religion is actually Quaker and we are noted for having a strong sense that many of our beliefs are best decided by us and we don't preach a particular ideology as being the only way to think. We respect others views and feel that those matters are between an individual and God. It is not our job to tell them how to believe or show faith. Our tolerance and respect for individuals beliefs is quite unique.

Although Quakers are usually a majority Christian, there are actually Buddhist Quakers, Jewish Quakers, even atheists Quakers. Their relationship with God is their business, we respect it and we learn from our different experiences with God. We don't get caught up in rituals, fancy churches, etc.

Our churches are usually known as meeting houses and many services have no preacher and are just quiet unless a member feels compelled to share something that he feels may be relevant to others, or just feels was relevant to him. (This was my simplistic, informal summary of Quakers. There are some who could probably give you a much more formal summary)

 

[SophieRose]

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking...es-have-normal-holiday-celebration?source=pkg

In hopes of having as normal a holiday celebration as possible, the entire family of Jahi McMath spent Christmas Day in the waiting room together at Children's Hospital Oakland.

About 15 family members had gathered by Wednesday afternoon, and a tree had been put together, said Omari Sealey, the uncle of 13-year-old Jahi, who suffered cardiac arrest and other complications after a Dec. 9 tonsil surgery that left her brain-dead. She has been on a ventilator since Dec. 12.

There were presents under the tree for Jahi and her siblings, and the family planned to carry on with some of its holiday traditions such as board games, dominoes and playing cards, Sealey said.

 

[pukasonqo2]

i found this link, from the australian government re: definitions of brain death and cardiac death:
http://intensivecare.hsnet.nsw.gov.au/brain-death

i am a parent and in all honesty i can understand why the family wants to keep the child in life support, there is always the "if"s...as a nursing student, i think this child should be allowed to go in peace. families see ventilators raising chests and assume that the patient is actually breathing when he is not. it might be difficult for the family to accept that their daughter is dead but it seems, to me, that this is more about them not accepting her death.

 

[SwampMama]

Medical ethics always seems to be really on the border. Doctors are either aborting 24 week old fetuses, or using incubators to keep premature 22 week fetuses alive. They're either doing everything they can with quadruple bypasses on octogenarians, or declaring children dead because the brain no longer functions. Presumably the broken heart is easier to fix.

I'd like to know if she can breath on her own.

BBM. No she cannot breathe on her own. One of the tests when assessing brain death is whether the person breathes or attempts to breathe when removed from ventilation. If she could breathe on her own, then she could not be considered brain dead . (If I understand that correctly, and I think I do, but I am NOT a medical professional).

 

[txsvicki]

The answer to that seems rather obvious. In theory, the soul is unconnected to the body. It is an entity that dropped into the body.

My mother had a brain tumor about 20 years ago. She had always been a very religious woman, wanted to be a theologian when it was not really allowed for women. After she recovered from her brain tumor, she said that there was no soul because her reasoning and perceptions changed according to her physical self, the brain disease of a tumor ... that there was no soul that existed and remained constant while her brain malfunctioned.

I would think that the changes she felt or didn't feel were due to the spirit, which is different than the soul. The concept of body, spirit, and soul is probably another theological debate though.

 

[otto]

Does the Catholic Church believe that the soul could leave the body prior to imminent death?

<snipped>

Not sure, but I think the reason that there isn't religious discussion on the forum is because it's not really allowed. Maybe check the TOS to be on the safe side.

 

[otto]

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking...es-have-normal-holiday-celebration?source=pkg

From your link:
"She has been on a ventilator since Dec. 12."

Has anyone tried turning off the machine to see if she can breath on her own? If not, isn't it a no brainer. If someone is unconscious to the extent of absent brain function, and cannot breath independently, what is the upside of keeping that person alive? That person is never going to walk, talk, or perform any brain function that is more evolved than breathing ... and breathing isn't even possible.

 

[jjenny]

From your link:
"She has been on a ventilator since Dec. 12."

Has anyone tried turning off the machine to see if she can breath on her own? If not, isn't it a no brainer. If someone is unconscious to the extent of absent brain function, and cannot breath independently, what is the upside of keeping that person alive?

She can not breathe on her own. She has been declared brain dead by numerous people.
Brain dead person can not breathe on her own.
And yes, they did try to turn off the machine and she couldn't breathe on her own.
I am not sure what the point is, but apparently family knows all that and still want to keep her on the machine.

 

[jjenny]

What happened to Terry Schiavo? She died after being starved for 13 days. That doesn't seem right. Not being able to feed oneself is not equal to brain dead. It's severely brain damaged, but not dead.

Terry Schiavo was NOT brain dead.
She only had a feeding tube.
She was not attached to a ventillator. She could breathe on her own. Her brain stem was functioning.
It's a completely different story.

 

[otto]

Prince Friso was brain dead and kept alive. Eight months later, having had the best possible care in the world:

"The Dutch royal house says that Prince Johan Friso, the brother of King Willem-Alexander, has died of complications after the 2012 skiing accident that left him with grave brain damage.

In a statement, the royal house said that the 44-year-old Friso had never regained more than "minimal consciousness" after the accident, in which he was buried by an avalanche."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/12/prince-friso-dead_n_3743226.html

 

[otto]

Terry Schiavo was NOT brain dead.
She only had a feeding tube.
She was not attached to a ventillator. She could breathe on her own. Her brain stem was functioning.
It's a completely different story.

So she was more like the Toronto man whose family benefits greatly from a health care system that sees preserving life as part of the right to life ... only in Canada, I suppose. I wonder what the systems are like Lebanon, Egypt and Syria. Northern European countries have national health care systems ... not sure about Eastern Europe. I would hope that communism has this built into the system by the people for the people. China, Japan, what is the health care situation there? Is the US a bit of a stand alone in not ensuring that everyone had health care? Sorry for the tangent, but now I'm curious whether coverage makes a difference in decision making.

 

[SophieRose]

http://www.sfgate.com/health/article/Brain-dead-Oakland-teen-could-be-moved-to-new-5093069.php

Christopher Dolan, the attorney for the family of Jahi McMath, said Wednesday that loved ones have received offers to help move Jahi out of Children's Hospital Oakland by Monday evening when a legal order to continue her care expires.

 

[otto]

http://www.sfgate.com/health/article/Brain-dead-Oakland-teen-could-be-moved-to-new-5093069.php

Where are they going to move her too? If health care agencies no longer bare the responsibility of maintaining her breathing, will she become an experiment? If so, she will fare no better than Prince Friso ... maybe a couple of months longer because she is younger, but eventually her other organs will similarly begin to fail. Prince Friso died of pneumonia eight months after he was declared brain dead even though he had an artificial breathing machine.

 

[wendiesan]

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2013/12/25/2nd-opinion-planned-for-teen-declared-brain-dead/
"Arthur L. Caplan, who leads the Division of Medical Ethics at NYU Langone Medical Center and is not involved in Jahi's case, told the Associated Press that keeping Jahi on a ventilator is also likely to cost thousands of dollars a day, he continued, and because she has been declared brain dead, is unlikely to be covered by health insurance."

This is so sad. In the same article, Dr. David Durand, Chief of Pediatrics at Children's, reiterated that the surgery was much more complex than a routine tonsillectomy. He expressed deep sympathy for the family but made clear that a ventilator cannot reverse brain death.

 

[Isabelle]

I would be interested in knowing what caused Jahi to bleed out and why she wasn't rushed back to the OR. Would also be interested in what facts were given to her mother or whoever her guardian is. A major reason for lawsuits related to medicine is patients/families want to know what happened and all to often everything is kept hush hush.

 

[SophieRose]

Where are they going to move her too? If health care agencies no longer bare the responsibility of maintaining her breathing, will she become an experiment? If so, she will fare no better than Prince Friso ... maybe a couple of months longer because she is younger, but eventually her other organs will similarly begin to fail. Prince Friso died of pneumonia eight months after he was declared brain dead even though he had an artificial breathing machine.

I'm wondering where the facilities are located that have offered. If out of the area or even out of state, would the close-knit family relocate?

 

[otto]

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2013/12/25/2nd-opinion-planned-for-teen-declared-brain-dead/
"Arthur L. Caplan, who leads the Division of Medical Ethics at NYU Langone Medical Center and is not involved in Jahi's case, told the Associated Press that keeping Jahi on a ventilator is also likely to cost thousands of dollars a day, he continued, and because she has been declared brain dead, is unlikely to be covered by health insurance."

This is so sad. In the same article, Dr. David Durand, Chief of Pediatrics at Children's, reiterated that the surgery was much more complex than a routine tonsillectomy. He expressed deep sympathy for the family but made clear that a ventilator cannot reverse brain death.

"Jahi's family says the girl bled profusely after a tonsillectomy and then went into cardiac arrest before being declared brain dead.

Outside the courtroom, Dr. David Durand, chief of pediatrics at Children's, said that staff have the "deepest sympathy" for the family, but that Jahi is brain dead.

"The ventilator cannot reverse the brain death that has occurred and it would be wrong to give false hope that Jahi will ever come back to life," he said.

Durand said Jahi's surgery was "very complex," not simply a tonsillectomy."

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2013/12/25/2nd-opinion-planned-for-teen-declared-brain-dead/

That seems to explain the situation. It was not a simple tonsillectomy and there were compounding complications. What was her health prior to the routine procedure of tonsillectomy?