Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #2

[missy_g]

I don't.
But she is not my child.
I wouldn't want to be a quadriplegic either, I would want to live with dementia either...that's ME.
This is about her and those that love her.


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I have to agree with this. My FIL has (had) cancer. He has been on chemo for FOUR years. Every two weeks for FOUR years. My husband has questioned his quality of life and he just keeps saying he'll die without the chemo without ever giving it up.
On the other side, I have an aunt who went 3 round of chemo, decided to give it up (when told she would need a fourth) and has been free of her disease ever since. That's their decision.

This case has really bothered me. I had to ask my mom what she would have done if the same thing had happened to me when I had my tonsils removed at 4. She said she would just have to let me go because she wouldn't have wanted to see me in pain anymore.

I have a 10 month old and I think I would have to make the same decision as my mom. I see NO quality of life with living on a ventilator with no chance of ever "waking up".

Like I said in the last thread...this is the families decision. No medical facility is obligated in caring for a legally brain dead body. This may sound harsh, but what insurance company will pay for a dead person to stay on a vent and appear to be alive? Is there any indication that she is decomposing?

 

[Linda7NJ]

Link please. ty

It was posted in the last thread. Iirc the hospital paid out 4.5 million for the child's lifetime of care.


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[otto]

"More than 530,000 procedures are performed annually in children younger than 15 years in the United States. The current tonsillectomy "rate" is 0.53 per thousand children and 1.46 per thousand children for combined tonsillectomy and adenoidectomy."

"The morbidity rate associated with tonsillectomy is 2% to 4% due to post-operative bleeding; the mortality rate is 1 in 15,000, due to bleeding, airway obstruction, or anesthesia complications."

Tonsillectomy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Linda7NJ]

Her heart does not beat on her own. Machine is pumping oxygen into it. Stop the machine and the heart will stop. This has been explained over and over again.

The point is... IMO.. If that were the criteria for determine life or death... One would only need to stroll thought the ICU shutting off ventilators and letting the chips fall where they may. Surely, that's not what you're suggesting.



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[Linda7NJ]

Her heart DOES not beat on it's own. LinasK.

Her heart beats because oxygenated air is pumped into her lungs.

One of the tests of brainstem function it to shut off the ventilator and see if there are spontaneous respirations. When the 6 board certified Neurologist did this, she did not have spontaneous respirations. 1-2 minutes without respirations and her heart stops beating.

I don't think you are qualified to apportion "blame". Have you seen the medical records? Have your read the operative report, the ICU care sheets? Have you talked to any of the physicians or nurses who cared for her? Have you read the autopsy report? Please show us the objective data.

One doesn't need to be qualified to have an opinion on the topic.


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[Zuri]

No, I think it just means the hospital doesn't have to assist with the transfer...in other words, once the hospital removes their equipment, the family and whomever they've chosen to transfer her will be liable to attach their own equipment, feeding tubes, etc..the hospital will not be performing procedures on a, basically, dead person leaving the hospital at that point. I could be wrong, but that's how I see it.

Someone from the medical profession can help me here...but the hospital, usually, has to make sure you make it safely out of the hospital once released..."you're good to go"...released. Without this order from the Judge, the hospital would be hard pressed to say "good to go" in Jahi's case. Totally JMO

This is the part that is fascinating to me on a medical level. You are correct about the standard of care regarding discharge. JCAHO, I think either sets these standards or oversees these standards or both. When I gave discharge instructions, I gave them verbally, asked patients if they had any questions, had them sign the discharge instructions. They left with a slew of papers and contact phone numbers for their physicians.
I have never heard of a brain dead patient being discharged, so I have no idea what the standard of care would be, since the medical standard is that they are no longer alive. This has raised a very interesting discussion from a medical POV as well as spiritual POVs, and what human beings interpret death to be. Good points that you made. IMO, JMO, IMPO, JMV etc.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I thought about that, but if it is pushed at all I have a feeling the hospital would then be accused of wanting to shut off the machine to harvest her organs.

Which would be really silly because they can't simply harvest organs willy nilly and no way is this family gonna sign.


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[shana]

It was posted in the last thread. Iirc the hospital paid out 4.5 million for the child's lifetime of care.


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No, it did not. I posted a clip from the URL provided by another poster, recently upthread.

This was a SETTLEMENT for medical negligence, NOT a win for the plaintiffs; furthermore, the final amount has not been publicly disclosed.

This same info is included in the other article posted, here:

http://www.contracostatimes.com/new...contracostatimes.com-www.contracostatimes.com

Also to add (bolding mine):

Part of the money has been placed into a trust to pay for 24-hour-a-day care for Rebecca, 11, who, unlike Jahi, shows some brain activity.

~jmo~

 

[Linda7NJ]

She's not living. She has a machine stuffed down her lungs pouring oxygen in to keep her heart beating so that she doesn't decompose. The sad fact is that NOW she's gone. She isn't going to recover and her body is going to be in limbo, hooked up to machines until her heart finally has enough. I can't not fathom why this family won't give her peace and dignity. Celebrate the life she had, lay her to rest surrounded by her friends with colors and music she loved.


IMO, the family should save the finger pointing and legal issue of perceived malpractice until later. Right now they need some major support and therapy because I can't imagine anyone (no matter their religion or beliefs) doing this to their child. Enough is enough.

No need to imagine. It's happening.




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[MyBelle]

No, I think it just means the hospital doesn't have to assist with the transfer...in other words, once the hospital removes their equipment, the family and whomever they've chosen to transfer her will be liable to attach their own equipment, feeding tubes, etc..the hospital will not be performing procedures on a, basically, dead person leaving the hospital at that point. I could be wrong, but that's how I see it.

Someone from the medical profession can help me here...but the hospital, usually, has to make sure you make it safely out of the hospital once released..."you're good to go"...released. Without this order from the Judge, the hospital would be hard pressed to say "good to go" in Jahi's case. Totally JMO

We don't disagree.

 

[jandkmom]

I imagine since their child had the complications in that hospital that they are not believing anything that anyone inside the hospital is saying whether they are independent or not. I am hoping that she does get transfered to another facility so that the family can get closure of some kind. If they get her to a different facility then they can get doctors that they trust to give them an answer whether it is the same answer or not. Once trust is lost it is gone and I understand their distrust. I can't imagine bringing your child into a hospital and having to go home without them. My daughter, who is 22, and I have discussed this case and she has said she would never want to live like that and I respect her wishes, but it would be so hard to let a child go and I would rather a facility different than the one that I trusted the life of my child to give me an answer even if was the same answer.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I have to agree with this. My FIL has (had) cancer. He has been on chemo for FOUR years. Every two weeks for FOUR years. My husband has questioned his quality of life and he just keeps saying he'll die without the chemo without ever giving it up.
On the other side, I have an aunt who went 3 round of chemo, decided to give it up (when told she would need a fourth) and has been free of her disease ever since. That's their decision.

This case has really bothered me. I had to ask my mom what she would have done if the same thing had happened to me when I had my tonsils removed at 4. She said she would just have to let me go because she wouldn't have wanted to see me in pain anymore.

I have a 10 month old and I think I would have to make the same decision as my mom. I see NO quality of life with living on a ventilator with no chance of ever "waking up".

Like I said in the last thread...this is the families decision. No medical facility is obligated in caring for a legally brain dead body. This may sound harsh, but what insurance company will pay for a dead person to stay on a vent and appear to be alive? Is there any indication that she is decomposing?

IMO every day we live, we are "decomposing" and one day closer to death.


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[Linda7NJ]

This is the part that is fascinating to me on a medical level. You are correct about the standard of care regarding discharge. JCAHO, I think either sets these standards or oversees these standards or both. When I gave discharge instructions, I gave them verbally, asked patients if they had any questions, had them sign the discharge instructions. They left with a slew of papers and contact phone numbers for their physicians.
I have never heard of a brain dead patient being discharged, so I have no idea what the standard of care would be, since the medical standard is that they are no longer alive. This has raised a very interesting discussion from a medical POV as well as spiritual POVs, and what human beings interpret death to be. Good points that you made. IMO, JMO, IMPO, JMV etc.

Just wondering... As an adult, I once signed myself out against medical advice. Why can't the parents do the same for their minor children?


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[shana]

Somewhat O/T but I would like to offer the following about End of Life provisions:

An Advanced Health Care Directive has been recommended but it is different from a DNR. Both are advisable. Each applies to a different situation.

The Advanced Directive (sometimes called a Living Will) has to do with Life Support among other instructions. The DNR (Do Not Resuscitate) is for instant decisions, whether or not to resuscitate a person in an incident of cardio/respiratory failure.

Two different directives, each for a separate purpose.

I do not claim to know the current law even in my state, but back in 2003, all that was necessary for a DNR was to advise my parents' health care providers and to post a notice at their bedsides; example, DNR or NO DNR.

~jmo~

 

[Herat]

The point is... IMO.. If that were the criteria for determine life or death... One would only need to stroll thought the ICU shutting off ventilators and letting the chips fall where they may. Surely, that's not what you're suggesting.

Of course that is not the only criteria for brainstem death, but it is a required component.

The report of the Chief of Neurology at Stanford is grim and unequivocal. She has a severely abnormal brain CT scan with essentially no cerebral vascular flow. There is no electrical brain or brainstem activity on EEG. She fails each and every diagnostic test he performs for any CNS activity.

At this stage, her brain does not even exist in a state you would recognize. It is decomposing and becoming semi-liquid.

This is a dead body kept alive by electronics.

 

[Leilei]

No need to imagine. It's happening.

I wish that it weren't. But, she isn't my child, and honestly I don't know how the heck I would react if I were in the same situation. I'd like to think that I would be able to let them go peacefully, but you don't really know unless you are smacked in the face with it.

I have zero doubt that this family loves Jahi to the moon and back. They want her alive, and seem to be willing to do whatever it takes via faith or ventilators or long term care facilities to keep her with them. But I hope and pray that something clicks, and they realize that all of the medicine and machinery in the world aren't going to bring her back, and that they can lay her to rest in peace and with some comfort. Her story has touched A LOT of people, I hope they can find some healing through the support that has been offered to them.

 

[Zuri]

To me this is about letting go. So many of us on WS have lost loved ones. Suddenly, violently, unexpectedly, through disease both of long and short duration. If Jahi had been in a car accident or accidentally shot by a sibling or friend, or had taken her own life, resulting in brain death, what would the debate look like? What would change? These agonizing decisions are made every single day. I have knelt with families, cried with families, cried in the break room, hugged family members when it was obvious their loved one had no chance of survival. Heartbreaking. There is nothing like a mother's wail of grief. It sears the heart and soul of everyone present. Please don't think we, as medical professionals in general don't care. For me, personally, this is crystal clear. I have had to take my 20 year old brother off the vent in 1982 and my father in 2010. Earth shattering grief. A lot of us have been where Jahi's mom is, however we let go. We mourn. JMO, JMV, JMO

 

[jandkmom]

Of course that is not the only criteria for brainstem death, but it is a required component.

The report of the Chief of Neurology at Stanford is grim and unequivocal. She has a severely abnormal brain CT scan with essentially no cerebral vascular flow. There is no electrical brain or brainstem activity on EEG. She fails each and every diagnostic test he performs for any CNS activity.

At this stage, her brain does not even exist in a state you would recognize. It is decomposing and becoming semi-liquid.

This is a dead body kept alive by electronics.

A doctor can look at the scientific side and see a body with no life. Her parents are looking and seeing their daughter. How awful for them. I pray they get peace.

 

[MyBelle]

I imagine since their child had the complications in that hospital that they are not believing anything that anyone inside the hospital is saying whether they are independent or not. I am hoping that she does get transfered to another facility so that the family can get closure of some kind. If they get her to a different facility then they can get doctors that they trust to give them an answer whether it is the same answer or not. Once trust is lost it is gone and I understand their distrust. I can't imagine bringing your child into a hospital and having to go home without them. My daughter, who is 22, and I have discussed this case and she has said she would never want to live like that and I respect her wishes, but it would be so hard to let a child go and I would rather a facility different than the one that I trusted the life of my child to give me an answer even if was the same answer.

If I had a doctor yell at me that my child is dead, dead, dead! and weeks later she is responding to my touch, I'd certainly not trust the hospital.
And if indeed there is new evidence that shows the brain death was misdiagnosed then she isn't a corpse and the hospital has now deprived the child of nourishment for several weeks. I have no problem whatsoever throwing my full support to the Mother in this case.

 

[Linda7NJ]

No, it did not. I posted a clip from the URL provided by another poster, recently upthread.

This was a SETTLEMENT for medical negligence, NOT a win for the plaintiffs; furthermore, the final amount has not been publicly disclosed.

This same info is included in the other article posted, here:

http://www.contracostatimes.com/new...contracostatimes.com-www.contracostatimes.com

Also to add (bolding mine):

Part of the money has been placed into a trust to pay for 24-hour-a-day care for Rebecca, 11, who, unlike Jahi, shows some brain activity.

~jmo~

Sorry, the employees of the hospital shelled out 4.4 million. The final payout from the hospital itself increased the grand total but we do not know the amount.
I did state it was for the child's lifetime of care.


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