Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #2

[Herat]

Just wondering... As an adult, I once signed myself out against medical advice. Why can't the parents do the same for their minor children?


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Because they would have to take her off the ventilator, IV's and feeding tubes, and would probably have to take the guerney, too, as she has no muscle tone at all. They can't just hook the ventilator up to a battery and put it in the back of a car. The family would also likely severely damage all legal claims against the hospital if they did this. I doubt they would even get out of the hospital without her respirations ceasing and heart stopping.

I'm sure Children's Hospital wouldn't mind if she just vanished, but they do have legal responsibilities and would want to be circumspect and decent about this.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Of course that is not the only criteria for brainstem death, but it is a required component.

The report of the Chief of Neurology at Stanford is grim and unequivocal. She has a severely abnormal brain CT scan with essentially no cerebral vascular flow. There is no electrical brain or brainstem activity on EEG. She fails each and every diagnostic test he performs for any CNS activity.

At this stage, her brain does not even exist in a state you would recognize. It is decomposing and becoming semi-liquid.

This is a dead body kept alive by electronics.

I don't disagree.


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[Herat]

If I had a doctor yell at me that my child is dead, dead, dead! and weeks later she is responding to my touch, I'd certainly not trust the hospital.
And if indeed there is new evidence that shows the brain death was misdiagnosed then she isn't a corpse and the hospital has now deprived the child of nourishment for several weeks. I have no problem whatsoever throwing my full support to the Mother in this case.

This is a fabrication on the part of the mother.

The qualified physicians who have examined the child have been unanimous in their findings.

 

[shana]

Just wondering... As an adult, I once signed myself out against medical advice. Why can't the parents do the same for their minor children?


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In THIS case, the hospital views the patient as deceased...an entirely different matter.

~jmo~

 

[Herat]

A doctor can look at the scientific side and see a body with no life. Her parents are looking and seeing their daughter. How awful for them. I pray they get peace.

This happens to thousands of unfortunate parents every year who don't create a twelve ring media circus about the death of their precious child.

The grandstanding and abuse of the personnel and facilities of Children's Hospital is reprehensible.

I'm sick of these people and the media frenzy they and their lawyer are creating.

 

[MyBelle]

This is a fabrication on the part of the mother.

The qualified physicians who have examined the child have been unanimous in their findings.

That's your opinion.

I don't know that the mother has fabricated anything at all.

 

[fruity]

Also, if a parent signs a minor child out AMA they can leave themselves open to investigation by CPS, depending on the severity of the condition and what doctors were hoping to achieve with treatment.

The first example that comes to mind is parents who sign kids out AMA because of religious beliefs with regards to blood transfusions.

 

[Herat]

"More than 530,000 procedures are performed annually in children younger than 15 years in the United States. The current tonsillectomy "rate" is 0.53 per thousand children and 1.46 per thousand children for combined tonsillectomy and adenoidectomy."

"The morbidity rate associated with tonsillectomy is 2% to 4% due to post-operative bleeding; the mortality rate is 1 in 15,000, due to bleeding, airway obstruction, or anesthesia complications."

Tonsillectomy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The information you give is not for the procedure she had. Hers was far more complex and involved at least a uvulopalatopharyngoplasty and mucosal shaving of the concha or tubinates. Please find the statistics for those procedures.

I also read that the mother was not happy with the first opinion that the child should not have had this procedure, but went shopping for a second opinion that gave her what she wanted.

There are also reports that the family did not comply with the ICU instructions to completely avoid having the child talk, and were reprimanded by nurses for persisting in encouraging the child to talk.

 

[Herat]

That's your opinion.

I don't know that the mother has fabricated anything at all.

The unanimity of the physician conclusions about her brain death is fact.

 

[Leilei]

That's your opinion.

I don't know that the mother has fabricated anything at all.

The mother isn't hindered by the legalities that CHO is, so it's really impossible to determine who is fabricating anything, IF anything, at this point. IMO.

 

[Herat]

Can her parents say no to organ donations? I am sure they have a choice, which is why I really don't understand this position.

Also, are her organs even okay for donation? I can't imagine the poor stress on Jahi's body at this point. It's almost been 3-weeks (for some reason I have to keep saying it's been 3-weeks!).

She is not an organ donor candidate, and hasn't been one for nearly 3 weeks.

 

[jjenny]

The unanimity of the physician conclusions about her brain death is fact.

Exactly.
And some of these physicians are not associated with the hospital. If mother doesn't trust the hospital, that is. The court appointed one agreed the child is brain dead.

 

[Herat]

Life can not always be broken down to black and white. There are shades of grey.


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The insurance company will break it into black and white at some point soon.

 

[MyBelle]

The information you give is not for the procedure she had. Hers was far more complex and involved at least a uvulopalatopharyngoplasty and mucosal shaving of the concha or tubinates. Please find the statistics for those procedures.

I also read that the mother was not happy with the first opinion that the child should not have had this procedure, but went shopping for a second opinion that gave her what she wanted.

There are also reports that the family did not comply with the ICU instructions to completely avoid having the child talk, and were reprimanded by nurses for persisting in encouraging the child to talk.

The mother is to blame because she followed a physician's opinion? Did she force the surgeon to perform the procedure? And are you saying the gushing of blood was because the child was talking? That's all new.

Please provide links to where you heard all of this. Thanks.

 

[MyBelle]

The unanimity of the physician conclusions about her brain death is fact.

I responded to your claim that the mother is fabricating facts. That's your opinion.

And it is a fact that physicians sometimes get it wrong.....especially if they are biased toward their employer. That's my opinion.

 

[shana]

Sorry, the employees of the hospital shelled out 4.4 million. The final payout from the hospital itself increased the grand total but we do not know the amount.
I did state it was for the child's lifetime of care.


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I did not see what you are stating in the article. Settlements are typically paid for and suggested by the insurer, not hospital employees.

The fund is designated but it does not say for life. It has a cap, but we just don't know the final amount of the settlement, of which this fund is only a part.

btw, I found the plaintiff's lawyer's comments most gracious:

"I do think it's unfair to indict a whole hospital, one that is very good at what it does," he said. "It's more important to find out how it happened and prevent it from happening again."

These two cases are very different. I encourage ppl to read the article for more.

~jmo~

 

[jjenny]

I don't.
But she is not my child.
I wouldn't want to be a quadriplegic either, I would want to live with dementia either...that's ME.
This is about her and those that love her.


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I don't think it matters one bit whose child this is. There is a body with a dead brain attached to a machine. What quality of life could someone be possibly talking about?

 

[jjenny]

And it is a fact that physicians sometimes get it wrong.....especially if they are biased toward their employer.

They didn't all have the same employer. Court appointed a physician from a different hospital. Specifially to look for signs of life in her brain.

 

[Zuri]

Just wondering... As an adult, I once signed myself out against medical advice. Why can't the parents do the same for their minor children?


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IIRC, it has to do with liability once a child has been presented for medical care. In my experience, when parents tried to do that, I had to notify the resident, attending physician, my nurse manager and the hospital supervisor. Usually, it was a matter of Miscommunication and lack of comprehension. This is from an ER perspective though. Whatever calls the manager and supervisor made, no clue, but I know all kinds of high level people were notified. I let them handle it and was just supportive to my patient. That situation was above my pay grade iykwim.

 

[jjenny]

The point is... IMO.. If that were the criteria for determine life or death... One would only need to stroll thought the ICU shutting off ventilators and letting the chips fall where they may. Surely, that's not what you're suggesting.



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It's already happing if the patient is brain dead and there is no hope of recovery. Ventillator is turned off. They don't normally keep brain dead persons on ventillators forever. There is no point to it, since it's not possible to recover from brain death.