Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #2

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Won't the heart stop in about 3 weeks if no nutrients are administered? It's already been two weeks.
 
SwampMama said:
From December 17. In this account Jahi's uncle, who has been serving as a spokesperson, states that Jahis' brain is 100% brain damaged and medically dead and that he knows this and accepts it. He also mentions clotting medications.

http://www.kcci.com/news/health/tee...gery/-/9356934/23523864/-/tn1o0f/-/index.html

But Jahi went into cardiac arrest. The medical staff performed chest compressions to revive her and gave her clotting medications, but nothing worked.
On Tuesday, a CT scan revealed that two-thirds of Jahi's brain was swollen.
Sealey said that Jahi's brain had been deprived of oxygen. "Now she is 100% brain damaged," he said. "Medically dead."
When told that his niece was brain dead, Sealey said the entire family went into "complete devastation."

"We pray over her daily," Sealey said. "We kiss her. I charge her iPod and make sure it is in her ears every night when I sleep next to her."

But he said he had accepted that she was legally dead.

Some have questioned why Jahi was not brought back to surgery immedicately but IF she was having a serious clotting issue, would they have brought her back to surgery, OR attempted to first counteract the bleeding with transfusions (which they were doing) and clotting meds (which uncle states they did)?

From what I have already read many times (besides this account) she was getting blood transfusions already so she was being treated for the blood loss. Perhaps she also lost a lot of blood during surgery as well.

At any rate, she was sent to the ICU so it is not like the hospital did surgery and just sent her home. They admitted her to ICU from the recovery room. From what I understand, it was in ICU that they bleeding became out of control.

Could it have just been a freak bleeding/clotting disorder like DIC?
(Not saying it IS DIC, just saying there may have been another factor that accounted for her massive bleeding, after all, she seemed fine at first.)
DIC summary: http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000573.htm
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her family stated she was spitting blood clots into a cup ; I wonder if that negates DIC? Also, that reduction of nasal obstruction involves packing - I wonder if the packing was dislodged
 
momrids6 said:
her family stated she was spitting blood clots into a cup ; I wonder if that negates DIC? Also, that reduction of nasal obstruction involves packing - I wonder if the packing was dislodged
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DIC - http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/health-topics/topics/dic/printall-index.html

"Disseminated intravascular coagulation (ko-ag-u-LA-shun), or DIC, is a condition in which blood clots form throughout the body's small blood vessels. These blood clots can reduce or block blood flow through the blood vessels, which can damage the body's organs.........

With fewer platelets and clotting factors in the blood, serious bleeding can occur. DIC can cause internal and external bleeding.



What are the symptoms? http://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/disseminated-intravascular-coagulation-dic-topic-overview

When DIC causes the blood's platelets and clotting factors to become depleted, excessive bleeding (hemorrhage) occurs throughout the body. The severity of bleeding can range from small red dots and bruises under the skin to heavy bleeding from surgical wounds or body openings, such as the mouth, nose,

How is DIC diagnosed?

DIC is a very complex condition that can be hard to diagnose. There is no single test that is used to diagnose DIC. In some cases, several different tests given over a period of time may be needed for an accurate diagnosis.

A doctor may suspect DIC in a person who has symptoms of excessive bleeding or clotting. Blood tests to measure the amount of platelets and other substances (such as prothrombin and fibrinogen) that affect clotting can help confirm the diagnosis.


Just to be clear to everyone, I am not saying she had this. I am not looking to debate anyone over this. I am not a doctor. I have no evidence of this. I simply wanted to say that a rare medical problem, such as this, could have been a problem that contributed to the catastrophic events that claimed Jahi's life. I have known people who had this, almost died and took months to recover. Sometime freak medical catastrophes happen.
 
SwampMama said:
DIC - http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/health-topics/topics/dic/printall-index.html

"Disseminated intravascular coagulation (ko-ag-u-LA-shun), or DIC, is a condition in which blood clots form throughout the body's small blood vessels. These blood clots can reduce or block blood flow through the blood vessels, which can damage the body's organs.........

With fewer platelets and clotting factors in the blood, serious bleeding can occur. DIC can cause internal and external bleeding.



What are the symptoms? http://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/disseminated-intravascular-coagulation-dic-topic-overview

When DIC causes the blood's platelets and clotting factors to become depleted, excessive bleeding (hemorrhage) occurs throughout the body. The severity of bleeding can range from small red dots and bruises under the skin to heavy bleeding from surgical wounds or body openings, such as the mouth, nose,

How is DIC diagnosed?

DIC is a very complex condition that can be hard to diagnose. There is no single test that is used to diagnose DIC. In some cases, several different tests given over a period of time may be needed for an accurate diagnosis.

A doctor may suspect DIC in a person who has symptoms of excessive bleeding or clotting. Blood tests to measure the amount of platelets and other substances (such as prothrombin and fibrinogen) that affect clotting can help confirm the diagnosis.


Just to be clear to everyone, I am not saying she had this. I am not looking to debate anyone over this. I am not a doctor. I have no evidence of this. I simply wanted to say that a rare medical problem, such as this, could have been a problem that contributed to the catastrophic events that claimed Jahi's life. I have known people who had this, almost died and took months to recover. Sometime freak medical catastrophes happen.
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The thought came to my mind also, however I have only witnessed it post-partum.
Anything is possible here.
UNTIL we hear the other side of the story.
Moo

Sent from my SGH-T679 using Tapatalk 2
 
DIC. happens when the body hemorrages and clots simultaneously. The blood goes heywire.
Quote: "Nor is it well understood why the clotting and bleeding seem to happen at the same time in these patients (I prefer to think that the clotting happens first, and that uses up all the platelets and coagulation factors, leading to bleeding…but it seems to happen in more of a simultaneous fashion, which doesn’t make sense). "
http://www.pathologystudent.com/?p=2337
moo

She was given clotting drugs..

QUOTE:" Jahi went into cardiac arrest and was resuscitated. She was given clotting medication to stop the hemorrhaging, but to no avail" - See more at: http://www.coloradonewsday.com/nati...r-from-life-support.html#sthash.NNmhTBGN.dpuf
Sent from my SGH-T679 using Tapatalk 2
 
vlpate said:
I'm sure they were asked, that's why I stated "pushed" the issue. I have no idea if they would still be viable at this stage...especially major organs...but there is much that can be donated to give quality of life, or even life, to a living person in need.
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I doubt it was ever an option. We don't know how healthy her organs were to begin with (she was very young but had obesity and sleep apnea and may have had some problems due to that) but we know that her heart was damaged by the heart attack, her uncle reports that blood was pumped from her lungs making them probably untransplantable too, and the longer she's been without oxygen during the heart attack and the longer she's been brain dead and on the ventilator the more damage there may be to the other organs. That ship has sailed a long ago. Time is of the essence in transplants from brain dead donors. I'm also pretty sure that it was obvious from the first discussions of brain death that the family would never consent to an organ donation even if she was a candidate at that point. I am not sure they would even have bothered asking a family that was clearly having trouble accepting the diagnosis of brain death.
 
wow, 8 WS members and 23 guests are viewing this thread now.
 
Also in regards to donating her organs. *no offense but organs from obese people are generally excluded.
There are concerns about the future of organ donation due to the % of obese people not being candidates.. Fever healthy organs are available.
IT seems the organs tend to be rejected or fail easier due to unforseen problems.
a Google search explains it better.

Fatty liver, type 2 diabetes, stressed organs from obstructive sleep apnea and continuing lack of O2 prior to transplant.
Hormone issues with the organ.
Personal research.
moo
Sent from my SGH-T679 using Tapatalk 2
 
princesspjs said:
I highly recommend that you guys read the court document that the mother filed. It's actually pretty interesting.

JAHI MCMATH COURT DOCS

I interpret this to mean that since the two doctors who reported that Jahi was brain dead were nullified, that only leaves the third doctor's opinion who examined Jahi and she apparently did NOT find that Jahi was brain dead.

12/20 Now, they needed to have a 2nd doctor to verify that 3rd doctor's findings to comply with the CA 7180 (find her brain dead) and 7181 (be the independent confirmation). They agreed to and asked 5 additional doctors who each declined to offer an opinion one way or another.

On 12/23 Paul Fisher, MD (Chief of Child Neurology for the Stanford University Medical Center) examined Jahi and on 12/24 Drs. Fisher and Shanahan gave testimony in a closed session and that's when they extended the Temp Restraining Order to 12/30/13.


From the filing:
“On December 11, 2013, Dr. Shanahan, a physician from CHO, declared that MCMATH was brain dead. Dr. Heidersbach, another CHO physician verified Dr. Shanahan’s findings.”

“In support of their position CHO submitted Declarations of Robert Heidersbach, MD, Sharon Williams, MD, and Robin Shanahan, MD. Of these three physicians, Dr. Hidersbach (sp?) and Dr. Shanahan were doctors who examined Jahi and testified by way of declaration that Jahi suffered irreversible cessation of all functions of her entire brain, including her brain stem. ” CHO argued that the two doctors meet the requirements of Health and Safety Code section 7181.

During oral arguments on December 20, 2013, over an objection by Real Party in Interest’s counsel, the court found that Drs. Heidersbach and Shanahan did not satisfy the requirements of Health and Safety Code Section 7180 and 7181”
Click to expand...


Snipped for relevance and green emphasis by me.
I can only see your quote, the document only loads a bunch of blank pages for me. Maybe I can see it on the other computer later. But I did not read your quote to say that Dr. Williams examined Jahi and found her not to be brain dead. It says that all three submitted declarations to support the hospital postition but that of these three doctors, Shanahan and Heidelbach examined Jahi and found her brain dead. To me this means that Williams did not examine Jahi and her declaration was perhaps a description of the care that Jahi has received in the ICU or something else that was supportive of the hospital's filing but not a description of her clinical findings about her brain dead state. She's the division chief of the pediatric critical care.
 
Elley Mae said:
http://www.foxnews.com/health/2013/...facility-is-last-last-hope/?intcmp=latestnews

According to the family's court filings, the New Beginnings Community Center in Medford, N.Y., is willing to provide 24-hour care for Jahi. The facility's management could not be reached for comment Monday night by KTVU-TV.

http://www.nbli.org/

New Beginnings targets August opening for long-term care facility

http://riverheadnewsreview.timesrev...r-long-term-care-facility/#.UVGVjREltoQ.email
Click to expand...


BBM: August? :scared:
 
MyBelle said:
The hospital spokesman can spin, make demands and say whatever he wants. Doesn't make it binding. It's all hot air and has been for days, imo.

In the legal filing today that has been posted upthread, it notes that Judge Grillo already ruled the Hospital does not have to assist with the transfer.

I believe legally, that means the family doesn't have to meet any of the Hospital demands at this point. It's up to them to get her out of there and I have no doubt they will do just that. The Coroner has jurisdiction over the "corpse" once it is out the door, not the Hospital imo.
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JMO but I took it to mean that the hospital does not have to assist with the transfer regarding the trach and G-tube. The family had asked the judge to require the hospital to do those procedures. They don't have to per the court.
 
wendiesan said:
In that case he will be called to serve as an expert witness, and he can explain that he completed his board certification in Pediatrics 50 years ago in 1963, and in Neonatal Medicine 38 years ago in 1975. Then, he can list his teaching, lecturing, and writing credits for the court to consider. Right now, his expert opinion about the state of a patient's brain is that of an admired neonatologist (the care of newborn infants, especially in newborn intensive care units) who doesn't believe brain death exists. His is not the opinion of an accomplished neurologist (disorders of the brain), and, IMO, it is the informed opinion of a highly qualified neurologist that is important in the diagnosis of Jahi's state.

No one has trampled on the family's religious beliefs. No one is demanding that any of Jahi's tissues or organs be taken from her body. (There are religions which oppose transplants, and the Winkfield/Mcmath family have every right to deny such surgeries on Jahi's body.) No one has demanded that a religious holiday go unobserved by the family (according to reports, they were at the hospital playing cards on Christmas since that is one of their family's Christmas traditions). So, I'm not sure why his being an expert witness in religious freedom applies in this situation given that no one had refused treatment to Jahi because of her religious beliefs.

Many doctors have served on the faculties of various medical schools. It doesn't make them experts on the condition of someone's brain, unless they are neurologists. And having served as president of the Catholic Medical Association (or Islamic Medical Association or Jewish Medical Association) doesn't make anyone qualified as an expert in every medical speciality and sub-speciality. While Dr. Byrne has undoubtedly kept up with the rapid changes within his own sphere of expertise, I question whether his understanding of the field of neurology has kept pace with that of practicing neurologists.

That Dr. Byrne is respected, personable, and devout is not under attack nor are those attributes being denied. His qualifications as a specialist in his sub-specialty are, IMO, impressive. They are just, for this particular task, irrelevant. His qualifications need to be put in context. The halo effect just isn't good enough, IMO, to make his opinion of Jahi's state obliterate those of doctors whose specialty is neurology.
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This was a good read, Thank you.
 
Elley Mae said:
http://www.foxnews.com/health/2013/...facility-is-last-last-hope/?intcmp=latestnews

According to the family's court filings, the New Beginnings Community Center in Medford, N.Y., is willing to provide 24-hour care for Jahi. The facility's management could not be reached for comment Monday night by KTVU-TV.

http://www.nbli.org/

New Beginnings targets August opening for long-term care facility

http://riverheadnewsreview.timesrev...r-long-term-care-facility/#.UVGVjREltoQ.email
Click to expand...

Well, you know, after reading that webpage I cannot blame the hospital people at all for wanting to talk personally with a physician affiliated with the place. The website says it's an outpatient rehabilitation facility run by a hair and make up artist, a real estate businessman and a mother of a TBI survivor.
Actually I'm not sure it's even a rehabilitation facility, as in a coherent organization, rather it looks like it offers office space for a variety of therapists. Not one licenced professional is named or quoted on the site.

New Beginnings Community Center provides office space specifically designated for individuals or groups committed to providing treatment to individuals with traumatic brain injury (TBI) and other physical and cognitive disabilities. This cooperative structure will allow a facility with multiple approaches to long-term rehabilitation, as well as an opportunity for professionals from all disciplines to corroborate for the good of TBI and other patients. Their combined efforts will make available the finest holistic long-term rehabilitation opportunities.
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They have a longterm group home for TBI survivors in the works but from the FB page it looks like it's not completely renovated yet and they're asking for donations.

If I was the hospital director I would absolutely want to talk personally with a physician affiliated with the place before sending any of my patients who require a ventilator there, even deceased ones.

Maybe they can let Jahi have one of the empty office spaces and get a home care nursing team there to take care of the ventilation etc. but there's no need to fly her to NY for that. There are office spaces in Oakland.

They offer support for families and maybe that will be of use but the list of services includes nothing that Jahi can take advantage of in her current state:

New Beginnings has opened its state-of-the-art center providing progressive long-term rehabilitation services for survivors of traumatic brain injury (TBI) and other cognitive and physical disorders.

The Center offers a holistic approach to these courageous survivors and special services for veterans. In addition, we will offer support to families and raise awareness of the needs of this growing population.

We are also closely affiliated with Hyperbaric Medical Solutions, a medical group located in the same building as New Beginnings that treats patients with Hyperbaric Oxygen Therapy in a comfortable and safe environment . To learn more about Hyperbaric Oxygen Therapy and the innovative medical work that HMS does, please visit their website at http://hyperbaricmedicalsolutions.com, or call 631 504-6800.

New Beginning is also hosting a support group.

Once the center opens, services will include:

Evaluation and diagnosis
Revolutionary treatment plans using first-class equipment, including the Quadriciser and the Lokomat
A wide-range of therapies
Cognitive
Hyperbaric Oxygen
Physical
Speech
Our goal is to move patients beyond traumatic brain injury management to maximum rehabilitation and recovery — in mind, body and spirit.
Click to expand...
 
Karmady said:
Well, that's new and different :facepalm:
Click to expand...

I thought I was dreaming. I have a friend, yeah I know weird. Her dad was in the hospital emergency room and her mother passed out. He was released she was admitted. Go figure.

So that happened here too. First I heard it too.
 
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