Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #2

[jjenny]

Who gets to set standards?
The standards have changed before.
Parents should have legal standing and rights in decisions for their children.

Doctors oath is to DO NO HARM. If they believe she's DEAD, what's the HARM?
They are harming her family.
I have no doubt they were as rude to this family as the family has claimed. Listening to the hospitals spokesman has convinced me of that!



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HARM would be having to spend enourmous resources on keeping brain dead patients attached to ventillators when there is zero chance of recovery. Resources that will be better spend on patients that actually have a chance of recovery. We don't have unlimited resources.

 

[SwampMama]

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-girls-mom-hospitals-feeding/story?id=21381684

The mother of Jahi McMath said today the hospital where the 13-year-old girl is being kept on life support is not feeding her and has been insensitive in referring to the brain-dead teen as "the body."

"To watch my daughter just sit there and not have food ... I'm just so happy that she is kind of a thick girl so she still looks good," Latasha Winkfield said today. "I tell her every day, 'Jahi, you losin' weight girl, but you still look good.' I just think it's inhumane to not feed my child, to not refer to her by her name, and stop us in our tracks."

Unfortunately, this is just the beginning if the rapid decline that Jahi will go thru. Jahi's mom would do well to read up on brain death, how it affects those who are kept on machines and how Jahi will undergo physical changes (weight, muscle tone, etc), That way she won't be so shocked by the way Jahi changes as slips farther away each day.

 

[Linda7NJ]

HARM would be having to spend enourmous resources on keeping brain dead patients attached to ventillators when there is zero chance of recovery. Resources that will be better spend on patients that actually have a chance of recovery. We don't have unlimited resources.

Back to the all mighty dollar again huh?

Plenty of other people who aren't deemed brain dead are kept on ventilators at astronomical expense with no hope of ever recovering fully or even partially.

<modsnip>

 

[Donjeta]

http://robertaconnor.blogspot.com/2011/02/shewmon-brain-or-no-brain-person-is.html

Okay so here's a brain dead boy who got puberty (Transcript of Dr Shewmon speaking

So the whole idea of neocortical death had to go out the window, and I reverted to a variation on the theme of whole brain death, which I presented at the Pontifical Academy of Sciences in 1989, and continued to write accordingly up until 1992, when I came across a case of a 14-year-old boy on whom I was consulted in California.

He had jumped onto the hood of a slowly moving car, fallen off, hit his head against the concrete, and within four days was brain dead, certified by a full neuro exam and an apnea test. Parents refused to accept that this was death and insisted with the doctors to continue life support.

Well, since they knew that there is imminent cardiac arrest in this condition of brain death, they thought, "Okay, we'll humor the parents for a few days, and then nature will take its course, and then we don't have to have this ugly confrontation with them."

So they continued for a few days and finally made an agreement with the parents that they would withdraw all support except for the ventilator and basic fluids for 48 hours and if the child passed away, then that was an indication of what God's will was. And if the child survived, then that would be an indication of what God's will was, because the parents were very deeply religious and insisted on doing what they considered to be God's will. But nobody could agree on what God's will was.

So the doctors thought this would be a good way to come to a closure on this. Well, he survived the 48 hours of simple fluids and ventilator support, and now they were in an awkward position to continue support, and they actually transferred him to a skilled nursing facility with the diagnosis of brain death.

And in California, of course, he was legally dead, and the nursing facility was very confused by this. They had never received a patient who was legally a corpse. And they consulted me about this, and I came up. I examined the boy, and lo and behold, I concurred with the diagnosis of brain death. He had no brain functions, and the records supported the apnea test. So he, while in this condition, began pubertal changes and passed away at 63 days from an untreated pneumonia.

If he survived for only two months and if Shewmon met him only once it is not clear to me how he could verify that pubertal changes began during the brain dead state.

But this was in California so it might be worth asking Shewmon if this facility still exists.

 

[Donjeta]

I'm not a doctor, more specially ...I'm not a neurosurgeon or a neurologist and I'm not a god. ( don't tell my dog)

I'm not going to pretend to be. While many of you are willing to put 100% faith in doctors you've never met and believe every word the hired <modsnip> spews...I am not.

I am in total 100% agreement with the families lawyer.

The person that loves her the most in the entire world deserves to have her voice heard and respected.




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Should mothers sign all death certificates?

 

[Linda7NJ]

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-girls-mom-hospitals-feeding/story?id=21381684

The mother of Jahi McMath said today the hospital where the 13-year-old girl is being kept on life support is not feeding her and has been insensitive in referring to the brain-dead teen as "the body."

"To watch my daughter just sit there and not have food ... I'm just so happy that she is kind of a thick girl so she still looks good," Latasha Winkfield said today. "I tell her every day, 'Jahi, you losin' weight girl, but you still look good.' I just think it's inhumane to not feed my child, to not refer to her by her name, and stop us in our tracks."

Unfortunately, this is just the beginning if the rapid decline that Jahi will go thru. Jahi's mom would do well to read up on brain death, how it affects those who are kept on machines and how Jahi will undergo physical changes (weight, muscle tone, etc), That way she won't be so shocked by the way Jahi changes as slips farther away each day.

They keep referring to this child as "the body" WTH?

I needed a minute for that to simply sink in.....

Have the <modsnip> tell us all again just how wonderful Children's Hospital is....how they've been so considerate

 

[Donjeta]

They keep referring to this child as "the body" WTH?

I needed a minute for that to simply sink in.....

Have the <modsnip> tell us all again just how wonderful Children's Hospital is....how they've been so considerate

I think they're doing it on purpose. Not to be considerate but to remind people that she is legally deceased despite the assurances of the family that she will wake up if people just wait long enough.

 

[katydid23]

There is or was a picture of a letter posted on his twitter page. IIRC, it didn't say anything about them having a doctor that was wanting to operate.

this was an interview today, with a radio station where he said this about the doctor.

 

[Steft50]

According to the above article there is a court order forbidding CHO from giving Jahi the trach or the feeding tube.

That article is full of information about what and who is allowed or being allowed to do anything.

On Tuesday, Jahi family attorney Christopher Dolan filed a second brief with the appeals court, asking the judge to reverse earlier orders forbidding the hospital from giving Jahi a tracheotomy for breathing and inserting a gastric tube for feeding. However, a judge denied that request a short time later.

Hospital officials have refused to perform any medical procedure on Jahi since she was declared brain dead, saying it is unethical to do so. The hospital also will not allow an outside doctor to perform the procedures at Children's Hospital, according to spokesman Sam Singer.

"We want Children's Hospital to help us or get out of the way," Jahi's uncle, Omari Sealey, said.

Other facilities have said they will not accept her without the tracheotomy and the feeding tube.

So apparently the courts have forbidden the hospital to do these surgeries, and that was upheld in todays ruling.

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking...cmath-hospital-fights-court-remove-brain-dead

 

[jjenny]

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-girls-mom-hospitals-feeding/story?id=21381684



"To watch my daughter just sit there and not have food ... I'm just so happy that she is kind of a thick girl so she still looks good," Latasha Winkfield said today. "I tell her every day, 'Jahi, you losin' weight girl, but you still look good.' I just think it's inhumane to not feed my child, to not refer to her by her name, and stop us in our tracks."

When mother is talking about food, it sounds to me like she expects someone to sit Jahi up and start feeding her.

 

[CCmakes3]

also...if the brain was totally dead, there would be no involuntary movement either...and there reportedly is.

I could be wrong, but I think certain reflexive movements are mediated exclusively through the spinal cord, without any involvement of the brain or brain stem.

 

[Donjeta]

I would hope someone (namely the grandma that is a nurse) is helping and reminding the mom to move the limbs so they are not atrophying.

I don't think that passive movement would work for very long. The mother is saying she's losing weight from inadequate nutrition so that would eventually cause her to lose muscle mass too and it doesn't help that her brain does not send any electrical impulses to the muscles. Hemiplegic stroke patients who get physical therapy and skilled nursing care may develop muscle atrophy from disuse anyway despite attempts to move the limbs and they are more active than a brain dead patient.

 

[SwampMama]

They keep referring to this child as "the body" WTH?

I needed a minute for that to simply sink in.....

Have the spinmaster tell us all again just how wonderful Children's Hospital is....how they've been so considerate

Please don't take it wrong because i respect your opinion and you and I have often posted on the same threads and never had any issues. But the source of this is Jahi's mom, who sees things only as she wants to see them and disregards facts of the matter. I am sure that a lot of the hospital staff comments have been taken out of context, events exaggerated along with reporting of things that simply are not true or not possible.

 

[MLO]

Didn't the hospital admit there was in fact "involuntary" movement of her limbs?
Can't be brain dead...it would be best for the hospital if it was...

Oh my gosh! I can't believe what I am reading:facepalm:

Is human biology not taught over there in school? What an absolute shame. This is why science MUST be compulsory and MUST be better funded.

Can you imagine how different situation would be if the mother had even a basic understanding of biology of this situation?

 

[SwampMama]

I could be wrong, but I think certain reflexive movements are mediated exclusively through the spinal cord, without any involvement of the brain or brain stem.

http://sleepdisorders.about.com/b/2013/12/31/jahi-mcmath-died-and-what-followed-has-been-tragic.htm
By a neurologist:

People with severe brain damage or even brain death may still have reflexive movements that are mediated not by the brain or brainstem, but by the spinal cord.

One example is called the triple flexion response. In squeezing the big toe, for example, the foot at the ankle, leg at the knee, and leg at the hip may all draw up. This is a reflex, similar to testing the stretch reflex of the patellar tendon at the knee. It is an action of the muscle, peripheral nerves, and spinal cord, and doesn't involve the brain.

To sort out purposeful movements, rather than reflexive ones, the painful stimulus is often applied to the top of the foot. If the person is conscious, they will move the foot away from the stimulus to escape the pain. The reflex will draw the foot towards it. These subtleties, and there are many, require the expertise of the neurologist to differentiate

 

[Donjeta]

Please don't take it wrong because i respect your opinion and you and I have often posted on the same threads and never had any issues. But the source of this is Jahi's mom, who sees things only as she wants to see them and disregards facts of the matter. I am sure that a lot of the hospital staff comments have been taken out of context, events exaggerated along with reporting of things that simply are not true or not possible.

The hospital's public statements have been pretty consistent in referring to her body (when talking about things happening after she was declared braindead and legally deceased). I think they're trying to make a point.

 

[mck16]

HAPPY NEW YEAR EAST COAST

:loveyou: :loveyou: :loveyou:​

 

[SwampMama]

From Jahi's family's facebook page an hour ago

"We Are Asking A Brave Doctor To Step Up & Agree To Do The Tracheotomy Procedure"

I thought they said they had a pediatrician to be with Jahi as she flew to the facility. So is their pediatrician not skilled enough (or not courageous enough) to do the trach procedure?

 

[BeginnersLuck]

From Jahi's family's facebook page an hour ago

"We Are Asking A Brave Doctor To Step Up & Agree To Do The Tracheotomy Procedure"

I thought they said they had a pediatrician to be with Jahi as she flew to the facility. So is their pediatrician not skilled enough (or not courageous enough) to do the trach procedure?

To do it in flight?

They can't do it at the hospital.

 

[MsSeal]

and following this incredible story.

I know this post is too long so I will try to post as I go and break it up a bit but I feel like I have to weigh in.

Correct me if I am wrong but has this been the first case where a brain dead person has been ordered by the courts to keep the ventilator support going?

I am trying to be objective and see both sides. I work in a hospital in medical records so I read and transcribe medical reports all day so I have an idea what is going but only enough knowledge to be dangerous. :scared:

My first question (I am not sure if we will ever know) is did this surgeon spell out the risks to Jani's mother verbally in language she could understand. In other words informed consent. I think it is required for the surgeon or a member of their staff to do this. I do believe I saw the name of the surgeon on some site but I can't locate it. I know that informed consent does not cover negligence if that happened but surely the mother knew with a complicated surgery that her daughter could possibly have an unforseen outcome and have it clearly explained to her what those risks were.

I do hope that there is a thorough investigation of what took place from the time she showed up at the hospital to OR, Recovery Room and PICU of how it all went down. Hospitals have quality assurance and if someone dropped the ball I would think they want to figure out how to prevent in the future and let anyone on the staff who displayed incompetence or negligence that day be called on the carpet. Was it one thing or a series of events that went wrong?

If it were circumstances beyond anyone's control (like she had clotting problem that was not picked up on her preop labs) and they did their best and followed all their protocols I would want to know that also. I believe that no hospital wants to lose a patient or is deliberate in messing up. But they are human and mistakes can happen. They just need to find out if was negligence or a situation they could not get under control.

I am trying to figure out why the nurses would let the family members suction a patient after such a surgery with numerous stitches and cauterization in the throat which is hello - the airway of a patient right from the OR. Or did the family take it upon themselves to do this. Were the nurses in attendance or were they leaving the room. So many questions.

What saddens me is when I get on twitter or the CNN site, etc. and read how they are trying to "kill Jani" and they are heartless. I agree the Singer dude is callous in his communication and he is the worst mouthpiece the hospital could have. He does them no favors. But I don't believe for one minute they are trying to kill this child. I don't think they thought that way on the day of her surgery. Something went terribly wrong yes, but deliberate, I don't think so.

Now Jani's mother is saying the hospital is cruel for not feeding her. Have their been cases of feeding a brain dead patient in a hospital or even in long term care. I can only imagine it is frought with problems and complications but I would think at some point if they continue to keep her systems going with vent they will have to look at nutrition?

I feel the mother is taking a very strong stance insisting they to ignore their ethical standards and consider her child as very much alive with all services that can be provided to her. I also imagine she is aksing for the hospital to eat those costs because of their screw-up and will sue for them for Jani's long term care on the vent if she does make it to the New York facility. I don't think it is for personal gain, though. More like she has a cause, a noble one at that and people will get behind her because this is a child and devoted mother and you cannot put a price on a precious child's life. And I completely understand her if she truly feels Jani is alive and God will spark her brain, miracles, faith and all that.

We also need to have a word for those who are brain dead on ventilators. It is insulting to Jani's mother to call her deceased or the body. Is there such a word?

When she says that she would be a horrible mother if she let them pull the plug I can sense that for her a good mother would never agree to it no matter what the experts say about her baby being gone. It says something about all those mom who made that painful decision to let go, I guess they are awful moms who did not fight hard enough and agreed to turn off the vent. Jahi's mom may became a national hero and an inspiration for other mothers to do the same.