Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #2

[Charlie09]

Her brain is not recieving any blood, it is not functioning, I never said she was decomposing...But there have been changes in her brain.....I know what my father looked like, I know what he endured, I was there everyday....As part of his therapy they sat him in a chair and tied him to it.....No one and I mean no one deserves to live like that.......Those are involuntary movements, she has no controlof that, just as she is not holding anyones hands....My fathers hands were bent like that, I would place rolled wash cloths in them to straighten them....When you are desperate you will say and believe anything....

Didn't the hospital admit there was in fact "involuntary" movement of her limbs?
Can't be brain dead...it would be best for the hospital if it was...

 

[mck16]

Her brain is not recieving any blood, it is not functioning, I never said she was decomposing...But there have been changes in her brain.....I know what my father looked like, I know what he endured, I was there everyday....As part of his therapy they sat him in a chair and tied him to it.....No one and I mean no one deserves to live like that.......Those are involuntary movements, she has no controlof that, just as she is not holding anyones hands....My fathers hands were bent like that, I would place rolled wash cloths in them to straighten them....When you are desperate you will say and believe anything....

I would think that her hands and feet are drawn. She has to have lost weight and have muscle atrophy. There are changes other than decomposition. I wouldn't expect that at this point, but other neurological changes are inevitable. jmo

 

[kytty]

Different scenario....
My brother lost a lot of weight too (He was never thick to begin with) and was on a vent for 75 days...so I know people change, but to suggest she's just decomposing is incorrect.


also...if the brain was totally dead, there would be no involuntary movement either...and there reportedly is.

This is actually untrue. Involuntary muscle movement after brain death is possible due to the movement being a function of nerves in the spinal cord. There has been discussion of this upstream.

 

[jjenny]

The hospital benefits if she dies. If she continues to exist, they cost for them will be far greater. On comparison the payout for a dead child is far less than the cost of maintaining her long term.

If everyone is so damn sure she'll succumb in mere weeks... Ask yourself, why not let nature takes it course?

Everyone seems so concerned the families motive is money. The money won in any lawsuit would be placed in a special needs trust for the child. The family would get very little in comparison.

If she dies, the family would get all of any lawsuit money.

The only one benefitting from her death is those fighting so hard for it. I have to say. The hospital is the one with motive.... If anyone motives are shady...it's theirs.


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Who is damn sure she will succumb in mere weeks? Apparently some brain dead guy lasted 20 years.

 

[Charlie09]

That's not true. Brain dead pesons can have involuntary movements.

“We found that these movements are more common than has been reported or believed,” said neurologist and study author José Bueri, MD, of J. M. Ramos Mejia Hospital in Buenos Aires, Argentina. “People need to know that these movements are spinal reflexes that do not involve any brain activity.”
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/01/000113080008.htm

I believe there is spirited debate on that....

 

[jjenny]

Didn't the hospital admit there was in fact "involuntary" movement of her limbs?
Can't be brain dead...it would be best for the hospital if it was...

You are wrong.
Involuntary movements frequently occur in brain dead patients due to spinal cord reflexes.

 

[jjenny]

I believe there is spirited debate on that....

What debate? A scientific study showed these movement frequently occur in brain dead patients without any activity in the brain.
Because of spinal cord reflexes.

 

[Charlie09]

I would think that her hands and feet are drawn. She has to have lost weight and have muscle atrophy. There are changes other than decomposition. I wouldn't expect that at this point, but other neurological changes are inevitable. jmo

I would hope someone (namely the grandma that is a nurse) is helping and reminding the mom to move the limbs so they are not atrophying.

 

[meme4]

Didn't the hospital admit there was in fact "involuntary" movement of her limbs?
Can't be brain dead...it would be best for the hospital if it was...

Yes they did, along with others.....No brain waves, no blood flow to the brain she does not respond to stimuli, she did not breath when they took her off the vent as part of the test.....No vent, no heartbeat,she exist because of a machine.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

i heard an interview with the uncle today on KCBS radio, a SF station. I was in the car so I don't have a copy of it. But according to the uncle, they have a doctor who wants to do the procedures, but the hospital was not going to allow this doctor to have hospital privileges for some reason. Now keep in mind this is the uncles version of events, so i dont know what the full story is.

There is or was a picture of a letter posted on his twitter page. IIRC, it didn't say anything about them having a doctor that was wanting to operate.

 

[momrids6]

Didn't the hospital admit there was in fact "involuntary" movement of her limbs?
Can't be brain dead...it would be best for the hospital if it was...

Being on a vent is not the same thing as being brain dead. There can be involuntary movements in brain dead patients for various reasons- links on the thread and many more on the internet.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Who is damn sure she will succumb in mere weeks? Apparently some brain dead guy lasted 20 years.

Yeah I know...I've read posters repeatedly state she wouldn't last long. Iirc you were one of them on the last thread. I may be wrong about that, if so,.please accept my apology in advance


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[Charlie09]

Yes they did, along with others.....No brain waves, no blood flow to the brain she does not respond to stimuli, she did not breath when they took her off the vent as part of the test.....No vent, no heartbeat,she exist because of a machine.

Then why the rush to unplug?
If she's really dead, she'll stay brain dead.
If there's any chance that she's not, that should be given to both daughter and mother!

I don't think the mother wants her child to be kept alive forever on a machine...but I think she wants a chance if she's in there.

 

[jjenny]

Yeah I know...I've read posters repeatedly state she wouldn't last long. Iirc you were one of them on the last thread. I may be wrong about that, if so,.please accept my apology in advance


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My understanding is most brain dead patients don't last long. But apparently there are exceptions, like this guy who supposedly lasted 20 years.

 

[jjenny]

Then why the rush to unplug?
If she's really dead, she'll stay brain dead.
If there's any chance that she's not, that should be given to both daughter and mother!

I don't think the mother wants her child to be kept alive forever on a machine...but I think she wants a chance if she's in there.

Because hospital is for the living. And by the standards of brain death, she is no longer living.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I'm not a doctor, more specially ...I'm not a neurosurgeon or a neurologist and I'm not a god. ( don't tell my dog)

I'm not going to pretend to be. While many of you are willing to put 100% faith in doctors you've never met and believe every word the hired <modsnip> spews...I am not.

I am in total 100% agreement with the families lawyer.

The person that loves her the most in the entire world deserves to have her voice heard and respected.




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[jjenny]

There is or was a picture of a letter posted on his twitter page. IIRC, it didn't say anything about them having a doctor that was wanting to operate.

Yep, they want the doctors from the hospital to perform these procedures.
Which the hospital refuses to do because by their standard she is no longer living and they don't believe it's ethical to do surgeries on her.

 

[Cubby]

"Nutrition is essential to continued physiological processes," said Nutik Zitter. " A body can't go for much more than two to three to four weeks without nutrition. A young person may be on the longer end."

However, the doctor added, brain death would likely lead to total organ failure, regardless of whether nutrition is provided to the girl or not.

"Brain death doesn't usually go on for several weeks," she said. "The brain is responsible for autonomic processes and if the brain is not alive, certain autonomic processes will cease and result in eventual death."

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking...cmath-hospital-fights-court-remove-brain-dead

According to the above article there is a court order forbidding CHO from giving Jahi the trach or the feeding tube.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Because hospital is for the living. And by the standards of brain death, she is no longer living.

Who gets to set standards?
The standards have changed before.
Parents should have legal standing and rights in decisions for their children.

Doctors oath is to DO NO HARM. If they believe she's DEAD, what's the HARM?
They are harming her family.
I have no doubt they were as rude to this family as the family has claimed. Listening to the hospitals spokesman has convinced me of that!



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[momrids6]

Who gets to set standards?
The standards have changed before.
Parents should have legal standing and rights in decisions for their children.

Doctors oath is to DO NO HARM. If they believe she's DEAD, what's the HARM?
They are harming her family.
I have no doubt they were as rude to this family as the family has claimed. Listening to the hospitals spokesman has convinced me of that!



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California law is setting the standards. The hospital is following them