Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #2

[SwampMama]

That is incorrect.

She is a LVN, not an RN and she works in a Kaiser facility.

There is a huge difference in education, qualifications, and duties between and LVN and and RN.

She is NOT an RN.

Ok THIS is important because she has claimed to be an "RN", or a "surgical nurse" in hundreds of articles over the past few weeks and that was NEVER corrected by anyone in the family. So chalk up yet another claim from the family that doesn't hold up as complete truth. I am getting mighty tired of being fed a steady diet of exaggerations, fanciful info that flies in the face of reality and downright untruths.

On a different note, we (the posters here) have wondered about the 2 opinions that Jahi's mother got for her before surgery and we wondered did both opinions agree or did one advise against surgery while the 2nd recommended it.. Turn out that according to Jahi's mom, the both doctors she consulted agreed.

"Jahi's mother, Nailah, and stepfather, Marvin Winkfield, had a sleep study done on Jahi and got two medical opinions on her case. Both times, doctors recommended a tonsillectomy to improve her condition. "They said that she would have more energy, focus more, lose weight and the urinating would stop," Sealey said. "

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/girl-brain-dead-after-tonsil-surgery.1046034/

This above link contains a link to the story which was on CNN. But even more interesting is that this story is on a forum where med students discuss things and Jahi's story has generated 3 pages of very interesting and well educated comments.

 

[CarolinaMoon]

Good morning to all and a Happy New Year. I slept through the big event and now I'm back here, into the miasma of misunderstanding and the macabre.

I fully understand the mother's tremendous denial and belief in miracles. Unfortunately, I believe the time for miracles has long-ago passed.

Instead of a family gathering around and speaking to each other and arriving at a decision to ease the suffering, they decided to pray for a miracle that she come back to life.

Instead, they went public and drew all the nut-cases out of the woodwork to support their position. One said he had a magic machine that could read brainwaves that aren't there. Another has a state-of-the-art facility under construction where yet another can stimulate the nerves to the brain to get it working again.

The only comfort I have at this point is that Jahi hears nothing, sees nothing, and feels nothing. Her soul is no longer with her. I hope she is with the angels and not hovering over her bed watching the circus. I hope her spirit is not crying out to be let go.

I have a great deal of respect for those posters who disagree with what I said. It is your right and perhaps you are right.

I am grateful my DH and I have long ago resolved these issues for each other in form of living wills. We differ greatly, but we know what each other fervently believes. DH does not want to be kept alive if in a persistent vegetative state. Neither do I, but want more time for the plug to be pulled, so to speak. I believe in miracles, he doesn't.

 

[CarolinaMoon]

I found this at the CA.gov site.

http://www.bvnpt.ca.gov/licensing/licensed_vocational_nurses.shtml

1. What is a licensed vocational nurse (LVN)?

An entry-level health care provider who is responsible for rendering basic nursing care.

A vocational nurse practices under the direction of a physician or registered nurse.

The licensee is not an independent practitioner.

More information on the site.

 

[MLO]

That is incorrect.

She is a LVN, not an RN and she works in a Kaiser facility.

There is a huge difference in education, qualifications, and duties between and LVN and and RN.

She is NOT an RN.

Ahhh, I suspected as much, but didn't want to mention it. It explains a lot.

I'm not sure what the difference is there, but I assume it is similar to our enrolled VS registered nurses. Our registered nurses do a 3-4 year science degree. Enrolled nurses do a 2 year diploma at a vocational institute. There is a huge difference between what is covered and their responsibilities. Is your system similar?

 

[Herat]

It is rare for a tonsillectomy patient to go to ICU, and even though this girl had extensive surgery, I would bet the ICU nurses were not familiar with what is normal following that type of surgery. Instinctively, the nurses should have known the bleeding was a major emergency that needed to be acted on. .

Once again, please remember this is not a routine tonsillectomy and the patient was already scheduled to go to the PICU after the surgery.

I am quite sure the Pediatric ICU nurses at Children's Hospital are qualified to take care of these kinds of patients.

There are many kinds of work experiences and levels of competencies within the ranks of the RN degree and I think you are making unreasonable assumptions about RN's in a field you don't appear to have expertise in.

 

[Elley Mae]

Hi. Despite the tragic circumstances discussed in this thread, I'd like to extend my wishes to everyone for a joyous, prosperous and healthy 2014. Agree, disagree--every person has contributed something that helps shine more light on a subject that will sooner or later touch every one of us. Sometimes the words read like electric shocks, sometimes the posts demand deep consideration. Thanks to everyone who shared their personal stories, to those who practice medicine in various capacities for sharing such specific expertise, and to the generalists who keep putting "facts" into a broader context. Thanks mods for being present, yet invisible.

I posted earlier that NW told a reporter that she had lost consciousness while Jahi was bleeding in the ICU but did not provide a link at that time, so here is the information. The comment was made to Matthias Gafni of the San Jose Mercury News. http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_24775261/jahi-her-mom-and-13-days-at-childrens

"Unable to speak and drowsy on morphine, Jahi wrote her notes, Winkfield said, asking "Is this blood?" "Why am I bleeding so much?"

Winkfield's mother, a nurse, replaced her in the ICU, but when Winkfield heard an alert called for Room 10 -- Jahi's room -- she said she rushed back to find staff attempting to restart her daughter's heart. Then Winkfield blacked out, she said, and was admitted herself.

She found out her daughter was in a coma from her own first floor hospital bed, she said."

In the context of the discussion regarding a timeline or sequence of events in ICU, the subject of perceived rather than actual time had arisen. I mentioned this event since NW would not have been able to corroborate SC's memory of the timing of different actions as she was no longer in the ICU. The stress of something like this happening would certainly have affected a person's memory of how long it took things to happen as well as the sequence in which several activities happened.

This was not a criticism of NW. Lord knows if one of my children was hemorrhaging in the way NM describes, I'd probably have fainted too.

bbm1, Is morphine normally given after this type of surgery on a child? TIA to the ones that know and can answer.

bbm2, There is alot to be said about this paragraph. One thing it tells me is that jahi's mom evidently felt she was OK enough to leave the room. And remember 30 minutes +- went by that she was OK. Did the alarm sound because of a monitor going off or did the Gmom sound the alarm. Mom walks in the room to find the staff attempting cpr? and passes out? idk jmo

Something is missing. This puzzle is missing some pieces. idk jmo

 

[Deleted member 110058]

I'm not a doctor, more specially ...I'm not a neurosurgeon or a neurologist and I'm not a god. ( don't tell my dog)

Love your sense of humor. I am a mother of 3 (dogs).
Thank you for the laugh!:floorlaugh:

 

[Herat]

bbm1, Is morphine normally given after this type of surgery on a child? TIA to the ones that know and can answer.

bbm2, There is alot to be said about this paragraph. One thing it tells me is that jahi's mom evidently felt she was OK enough to leave the room. And remember 30 minutes +- went by that she was OK. Did the alarm sound because of a monitor going off or did the Gmom sound the alarm. Mom walks in the room to find the staff attempting cpr? and passes out? idk jmo

Something is missing. This puzzle is missing some pieces. idk jmo

I don't think you are going to get very far trying to sleuth this.

This is part of the patient's medical record and is entirely confidential by federal law. Any person could be prosecuted for releasing this information.

No one can give you specific information about her care, and you should be skeptical about statements made by the family about her care, for a variety of reasons.

 

[Donjeta]

bbm1, Is morphine normally given after this type of surgery on a child? TIA to the ones that know and can answer.

bbm2, There is alot to be said about this paragraph. One thing it tells me is that jahi's mom evidently felt she was OK enough to leave the room. And remember 30 minutes +- went by that she was OK. Did the alarm sound because of a monitor going off or did the Gmom sound the alarm. Mom walks in the room to find the staff attempting cpr? and passes out? idk jmo

Something is missing. This puzzle is missing some pieces. idk jmo

I don' t have a link handy so I could be wrong but I seem to recall an article saying that the mom left the room and called the grandmother because the bleeding was getting to be too much for her.

 

[iluvmua]

Considering Jahi was talking, laughing and eating a popcicle after surgery no wonder she started to bleed.

I'm tired of hearing about the family's side of the story. I want to hear the hospitals' side.

I'm sure we are not getting the 100% truth from the family.

JMO

and considering they (the family) will not allow the hospital to discuss this matter, is telling.

 

[Sonya610]

Instead of a family gathering around and speaking to each other and arriving at a decision to ease the suffering, they decided to pray for a miracle that she come back to life.

I don't think they actually expect a miracle anymore, this has morphed into a protest/angry lawsuit sort of thing done on the basis of some principle that most of us will never understand.

If they truly and actually expected a miracle there would be a lot more Bible quotes and religious verbage in the statements as of late.

It is the "man's" fault if no miracle comes about because the man didn't let it happen, kwim?

That is mho.

 

[SwampMama]

"After the surgery, (Jahi) was fine. She went into the recovery room. She was alert and talking, and she was asking for a Popsicle because she said her throat hurt. As part of the procedure, she was meant to spend the night in ICU," Sealey said. "When she got moved to ICU, there was a 30-minute wait until any family member could go see her. Upon entry, they saw that there was way too much blood."

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/girl-brain-dead-after-tonsil-surgery.1046034/

"She lost four pints of blood. She had to have four blood transfusions. She had two liters of blood pumped out of her lungs, not including what was in her stomach," Sealey said. "There was an enormous amount of blood, and we kept asking, 'Is this normal?' Some nurses said, 'I don't know,' and some said 'yes.' There was a lot of uncertainty and a lack of urgency."

and yet another interesting link:

http://www.scarysymptoms.com/2013/12/how-can-tonsillectomy-bleeding-lead-to.html

How can complications and bleeding from a tonsillectomy lead to cardiac arrest?
"When there is excessive blood loss the heart needs to pump faster to get enough red blood cells carrying oxygen to the major organs and the rest of the body," ....
......"Some hearts can only handle so much stress and can arrest, even in a child. A child who is overweight has a stressed heart to begin with and does not have a lot of room for more excessive straining."......
...... "You have to watch out for post-obstructive pulmonary edema in obese patients with large tonsils, adult or child. This is likely why she oxygenated her brain so poorly after surgery."

 

[meme4]

I don't think they actually expect a miracle anymore, this has morphed into a protest/angry lawsuit sort of thing done on the basis of some principle that most of us will never understand.

If they truly and actually expected a miracle there would be a lot more Bible quotes and religious verbage in the statements as of late.

It is the "man's" fault if no miracle comes about because the man didn't let it happen, kwim?

That is mho.

I agree,her mother now seems to me to fanning the flames by running to the media with statementss the hospital will not do this or that.....I also think, again my opinion,that no faculty is gonna take this child, thats why they have the conditions placed, they know that this hospital is not gonna allow that to happen and the law agrees......

 

[Linda7NJ]

Once again, please remember this is not a routine tonsillectomy and the patient was already scheduled to go to the PICU after the surgery.



I am quite sure the Pediatric ICU nurses at Children's Hospital are qualified to take care of these kinds of patients.



There are many kinds of work experiences and levels of competencies within the ranks of the RN degree and I think you are making unreasonable assumptions about RN's in a field you don't appear to have expertise in.

"Unreasonable assumptions"?

Ask yourself how many posters here are experts qualified to render a medical determination on brain death.

Medical malpractice?



Everyone is entitled to an opinion here. Everyone brings the entirety of life experience and education and beliefs, preconceived notions etc. and everyone is to do their very best to be respectful.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Donjeta]

http://www.ibrfinc.org/
Yesterday's miracle cure guy's foundation site.
Everything is cutting edge and facilitates state of the art collaborations between the top research inventives worldwide but nothing concrete about what his $ 150.000 cure for coma and braindeath is. A little bit of everything I guess. One of the family testimonials say they've tried a series of scans and tests, neurofeedback, infrared laser, acupuncture , hyperbaric chamber, specialized speech therapy etc. at the foundation (at who knows what cost) and their child has dramatically improved and they have hopes that he will gain consciousness one day.
http://www.ibrfinc.org/kret.htm

On another site they say that another hospital recently said that their son has the locked-in syndrome so the foundation apparently was not able to diagnose that. Hm.

 

[Elley Mae]

Straus, the hospital's lawyer, reiterated in his letter that the hospital would release the girl's body as soon as her family provided a detailed plan outlining how the move would be accomplished and written permission from the coroner. But he said neither has been submitted.

"No facility has stated, unconditionally or otherwise, that it is prepared to immediately accept Jahi's body," he wrote.

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2013/...rain-dead-says-ny-facility-is-last-last-hope/

 

[MsSeal]

Ok THIS is important because she has claimed to be an "RN", or a "surgical nurse" in hundreds of articles over the past few weeks and that was NEVER corrected by anyone in the family. So chalk up yet another claim from the family that doesn't hold up as complete truth. I am getting mighty tired of being fed a steady diet of exaggerations, fanciful info that flies in the face of reality and downright untruths.


http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/girl-brain-dead-after-tonsil-surgery.1046034/

This above link contains a link to the story which was on CNN. But even more interesting is that this story is on a forum where med students discuss things and Jahi's story has generated 3 pages of very interesting and well educated comments.

I agree about the LVN vs an RN status of the grandmother. I know many of LVNs who work in a hospital can provide basic nursing care but cannot give medicine and do not have the training to perform more skilled nursing. I could not get why a trained "surgical" nurse would not have more understanding of the science around surgery and brain death, complications, etc.

I am still baffled that Jahi's family thought it was their job to "control the bleeding" going by their statements. Was that their interpretation of things?

Also thanks for the link of the MD comments. They do provide insight on what might have happened after surgery.

In the beginning I had more sympathy for this family and while I do understand the devastating sudden loss of a sweet daughter it feels like Mrs. Winkfield is dramatic and wants to stir things up to get the media on her side. To me she looks at everything through her own lens of the hospital is not cooperating with her. And I do understand advocating for your child and the anger at feeling like they have been condescending with her and is exerting her power with the judges, the media and through her lawyer.

When she first said her daughter "was on death row" I was in disbelief but I guess that is how she sees things.

Now the headline is the "Jahi McMath is Starving in Hospital" and "Pediatrician says Jahi not brain dead and with proper nutrition and care she can recover."

And the hospital can say nothing or very little while the public runs wild with this. It has to be a PR nightmare for CHO.

 

[Sonya610]

Guarantee that if you had an insurance policy that was a high payer, you would be brain dead for a very long time. Administration would be thinking, look at all the $$$$$ we can make. I have been there and seen that!

You guarantee that? Are you verified as an RN by the way?

From what I have read once a patient is declared deceased the HOSPITAL foots the bill because insurance will not.

I would have to think most RNs that have worked long enough to see sad situations wouldn't argue that sometimes it should just STOP.

 

[Elley Mae]

As the family worked to make the move a reality, a California Department of Public Health spokesman confirmed the agency was investigating the case, but he would not comment on ongoing probes or who requested it.

http://www.insidebayarea.com/news/c...tate-launches-investigation-into-medical-case

An investigation starts when the department receives a complaint from outside the facility, or if the health care provider self-reports an incident that may be linked to a problem with care or a legal or regulatory violation, he said. Investigations include on-site inspections; interviews with staff, patients or their legal guardians; and reviews of medical records and policies.

 

[Softail]

"To watch my daughter just sit there and not have food ... I'm just so happy that she is kind of a thick girl so she still looks good," Nailah Winkfield told ABC’s "Good Morning America." "I tell her every day, 'Jahi, you losin' weight girl, but you still look good.' I just think it's inhumane to not feed my child

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...spital-mother-article-1.1563261#ixzz2pADrz7aF

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