Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #2

[sayd]

Hopefully they will donate it to a children's charity, in her name. But, I am not sure what the state laws say about what happens to that money, since it was donated for transportation costs.

I'm guessing it will go to the "attorney" they hired.

 

[vlpate]

[Jahi's uncle, Omari Sealey, told reporters late in the afternoon that the family has now contracted with the New York facility and arranged for medical transport. But Singer said documentation indicating that the facility will accept her appears "faulty."]

Source:
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-jahi-mcmath-20131230,0,3497539.story#axzz2oyc1bHpN

This is an excerpt from the source listed above.
Yikes...is the family submitting fake paperwork or is the hospital playing dirty?

Also from the same article

"The family maintains that Jahi is not dead and that she moved her leg and other parts of her body recently. "[link]

I can't imagine this has not been explained to the mother and family - she could even sit up (Lazarus effect), but these movements are involuntary and not anything initiated by her brain.

" Many brain-dead patients have spontaneous movements such as jerking of fingers or bending of toes..." [link]

 

[Leilei]

Her heart DOES not beat on it's own. LinasK.

Her heart beats because oxygenated air is pumped into her lungs.

One of the tests of brainstem function it to shut off the ventilator and see if there are spontaneous respirations. When the 6 board certified Neurologist did this, she did not have spontaneous respirations. 1-2 minutes without respirations and her heart stops beating.

I don't think you are qualified to apportion "blame". Have you seen the medical records? Have your read the operative report, the ICU care sheets? Have you talked to any of the physicians or nurses who cared for her? Have you read the autopsy report? Please show us the objective data.

Thank you, Herat, you said it much better than I could.

 

[Deleted member 110058]

Oh, of course. No doubt. I think the representation that a pediatrician thinks she's alive is lame. Even more so if it's that guy and he "visited." I posted above that I think the Stanford doc is irrefutable. As someone said upthread, if he's proven wrong (like, literally proven wrong -- not just disagreed with by a different expert for hire) I'll never trust another doc or hospital in my life. Seriously. Imo, he's the pinnacle and if he's wrong...well. But I have no doubt that he's correct.

jmo

Karmady, I agree.
My husband is a Neurologist and the court appointed physician is a colleague of his. Paul is considered to be "Da Man" when it comes to Pediatrics in the state of CA. He is brilliant, ethical and a damned nice guy. If Jahi were to wake up...I can assure you we will all be witnessing a miracle.

 

[jaxibear]

You don't know what's been going on behind the scenes. Doesn't matter if it was 4PM, he made the deadline with an hour to spare. We the general public won't know all the details, and that's allright- it's not a murder trial with sunshine laws and it's none of our business!!!

I agree. We don't know the details. We only know the family's version of the events since the hospital is restricted by law from presenting its version of events.

We can't determine what fault, if any, lies with the hospital, the family, or some other unfortunate circumstance beyond anyone's control.

In the meantime, this hospital successfully treats suffering children every single day and, imho, that fact is being lost with sensationalist headlines.

 

[Montjoy]

You asked what Jahi wanted. Her heart beats on it's own, her body is still alive.

You must have a source for this -- could you please share it?

 

[jjenny]

You asked what Jahi wanted. Her heart beats on it's own, her body is still alive. I am placing blame for her condition on Children's Hospital- they alone are responsible for the condition she is in. Otherwise, she'd be on Winter Break from school right now and enjoying her family and continuing her life. It doesn't matter what any of us thinks of as quality of life, only what the families wishes are.:twocents: In My Opinion

Her heart does not beat on her own. Machine is pumping oxygen into it. Stop the machine and the heart will stop. This has been explained over and over again.

 

[vlpate]

No, Children's Hospital screwed up another tonsillectomy two years ago and the little girl is brain-damaged. The family successfully sued for malpractice and won. She does NOT need to be dead to proceed with a lawsuit.

They didn't sue for wrongful death. I recall they won 4 million, but I do not recall what the cause of her brain damage was. In a wrongful death there is usually an autopsy..which, obviously, can't be performed at this stage.

I mean, what will they say are her long term injuries? Death?

I have zero problem with the hospital being sued if they are at fault here, none...I'm just curious how this will work, legally, moving forward.

 

[MyBelle]

Has CHO changed its terms for transfering Jahi? If so, I've not yet read that.

I've only heard from the family that the Coroner signed-off but the hospital claims the opposite.

This is not about relocating a living patient but instead involves removing a deceased one. Before you ask, Jahi is deceased from the hospital's determination, approved by the Court. CHO does NOT need the family's consent to remove Jahi from support and then to move a deceased individual to an approrpiate location.

~jmo~

The media have quoted the Coroner's office:

"A spokesman with the Alameda County Coroner's Office on Monday said the office had agreed to allow her body to be moved to another facility.

"If they can find a facility I will not be opposed to that," said Lt. Rick Bowers, who oversees the office.

http://www.contracostatimes.com/news/ci_24815775/jahi-mcmath-oakland-brain-dead-girl-could-be

CHO has been ordered by a court to keep her connected to the vent until there is another court hearing. I don't believe CHO is still calling the shots in this case, I believe the Courts have taken over but that's just my opinion.

 

[jandkmom]

Link please. ty

I wasn't who you asked, but this is what I found.

http://news.msn.com/in-depth/twin-tonsillectomy-tragedies-raise-questions

Sad story no matter what happens.

 

[Cubby]

If the standard was that the two doctors could not be affiliated with the hospital then why did the hospital not follow the standard?

I think a video showing the patient reacting to her mother might also carry a lot of weight with a Court in deciding if such a patient meets the legal definition of death. These are very interesting legal issues but the failure of the hospital to follow the standard in evaluation for brain death does merit further investigation, imo.

The hospital did follow procedures. According to msm linked upthread there were two doctors affiliated with the hospital. Three brought in by the family who were not affiliated and one court ordered. That is six specialists who all came to the same conclusion Jahi is brain dead.

In msm links upthread Jahi's mother stated she wished she had not sought a second opinion regarding the surgery when the first opinion advised against it. I can't help but wonder if she will come to regret what appears to be doctor shopping in order to find someone who will differ from the six previous specialists who concluded she is brain dead. Her behavior and choices are going to have long term consequences for her other children. They will likely be teased or bullied regarding their mothers behavior and are likely to hear some graphic details regarding what happens to brain dead bodies kept on a ventilator. I really worry about how this long drawn out display will affect Jahi's siblings.

Very sad all around.

 

[MyBelle]

And what is that new evidence? ty

the court filing mentioned a pediatrician's examination and that she is reacting to touch. I can't remember what else. Link was posted up thread a couple of hours ago.

 

[vlpate]

I totally agree with what you commented. I had wondered if her organs could maintain viability and if so for how long. They could be saving living people with these organs instead of what they are doing. jmo

I thought about that, but if it is pushed at all I have a feeling the hospital would then be accused of wanting to shut off the machine to harvest her organs.

 

[Kaliste]

Jahi did not want the surgery, Jahi wants to live, she's only 13.

She's not living. She has a machine stuffed down her lungs pouring oxygen in to keep her heart beating so that she doesn't decompose. The sad fact is that NOW she's gone. She isn't going to recover and her body is going to be in limbo, hooked up to machines until her heart finally has enough. I can't not fathom why this family won't give her peace and dignity. Celebrate the life she had, lay her to rest surrounded by her friends with colors and music she loved.


IMO, the family should save the finger pointing and legal issue of perceived malpractice until later. Right now they need some major support and therapy because I can't imagine anyone (no matter their religion or beliefs) doing this to their child. Enough is enough.

 

[Zuri]

Oh, of course. No doubt. I think the representation that a pediatrician thinks she's alive is lame. Even more so if it's that guy and he "visited." I posted above that I think the Stanford doc is irrefutable. As someone said upthread, if he's proven wrong (like, literally proven wrong -- not just disagreed with by a different expert for hire) I'll never trust another doc or hospital in my life. Seriously. Imo, he's the pinnacle and if he's wrong...well. But I have no doubt that he's correct.

jmo

Well said. What are the medical-legal implications and ramifications?

IMO, coming from a medical POV, I see a loving mom who is unable to let go. There appears to be a disconnect between them understanding that she is clinically brain dead and vent dependent. If the vent is removed, since she does not breathe on her own as her brain stem is gone, her heart stops and she is declared deceased. From my medical POV, primal reflexes are perhaps being interpreted as cognitive responses. There is a standard for clinical death which Jahi meets. JMO, IMO, IMPO, et al.

So what happens now? TIA

 

[sherbetjello]

I thought about that, but if it is pushed at all I have a feeling the hospital would then be accused of wanting to shut off the machine to harvest her organs.

Can her parents say no to organ donations? I am sure they have a choice, which is why I really don't understand this position.

Also, are her organs even okay for donation? I can't imagine the poor stress on Jahi's body at this point. It's almost been 3-weeks (for some reason I have to keep saying it's been 3-weeks!).

 

[MyBelle]

The hospital did follow procedures. According to msm linked upthread there were two doctors affiliated with the hospital. Three brought in by the family who were not affiliated and one court ordered. That is six specialists who all came to the same conclusion Jahi is brain dead.

In msm links upthread Jahi's mother stated she wished she had not sought a second opinion regarding the surgery when the first opinion advised against it. I can't help but wonder if she will come to regret what appears to be doctor shopping in order to find someone who will differ from the six previous specialists who concluded she is brain dead. Her behavior and choices are going to have long term consequences for her other children. They will likely be teased or bullied regarding their mothers behavior and are likely to hear some graphic details regarding what happens to brain dead bodies kept on a ventilator. I really worry about how this long drawn out display will affect Jahi's siblings.

Very sad all around.

BBM. Why anyone want to bash the mother? She didn't cause her daughter's condition. And why would the children be teased about this tragedy? What kind of bully would do that innocent kids? I'd report such bullying to school authorities and police.

The filing said the Judge determined the hospital did not follow the standard in the initial determination of brain death. The entire purpose of having a standard is so that it will be followed. And it doesn't matter what the other opinions were if there is NEW evidence that she no longer meets the legal definition of brain death. We must wait to see how the Court views it at the hearing.

JMO

 

[Boytwnmom]

Cynthia Chiarappa, a hospital spokeswoman, has said officials would have to understand the capabilities of the New York facility before allowing a possible transfer.

The hospital also said it would need to confirm there is lawful transportation included in any transfer plan and there is written permission from the coroner.

Doctors at Children’s Hospital have refused to perform a tracheotomy for breathing and to insert a feeding tube — procedures that would be necessary to transfer Jahi. The hospital has said it’s unethical to perform surgery on a person legally declared dead.

http://blogs.kqed.org/newsfix/2013/12/30/jahi-mcmath-oakland-brain-dead-girl/

The hospital has refused to perform a tracheotomy for breathing and insert a feeding tube, necessary procedures in order to transfer Jahi, saying it's unethical to perform surgery on a person legally declared dead...."We need to be able to talk to the other facility to understand what it is they are capable of doing," Cynthia Chiarappa, a hospital spokeswoman, said. "This is not transferring an individual in a vegetative state, but a dead body."

The hospital also said it would need to confirm there is "lawful transportation" included in any plan to transfer Jahi, and written permission from the coroner...The hospital's lawyer, Douglas Straus, said in a letter to Jahi's family on Sunday that the hospital has required three conditions to transfer Jahi, including assurance from the new facility.

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2013/12/30/family-california-teen-declared-brain-dead-says-ny-facility-is-last-last-hope/

They already did!!

 

[jaxibear]

Can her parents say no to organ donations? I am sure they have a choice, which is why I really don't understand this position.

Also, are her organs even okay for donation? I can't imagine the poor stress on Jahi's body at this point. It's almost been 3-weeks (for some reason I have to keep saying it's been 3-weeks!).

And can organs be donated when an autopsy will be necessary to determine the precise cause of death?

 

[Linda7NJ]

Whose quality of life? You think being attached to a machine with a dead brain has some life quality to it?

I don't.
But she is not my child.
I wouldn't want to be a quadriplegic either, I would want to live with dementia either...that's ME.
This is about her and those that love her.


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