Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #3

[I Object!]

Not all bleeding or clotting disorders can be determined from those pre-operative blood tests. They address the issues that correlate to the most common complications. An accurate patient and familial history is very important, especially if it deals with blood. My family has a history of something called Factor V Leiden syndrome, a clotting issue that cannot be gleaned from basic bloodwork.

This was a very good read. The only point I was stuck on was the history of possible diabetes and clotting issues. Even if the family was not forthcoming with an accurate medical history, a pre-operative work up is done through lab work. Dr. Zuri said that in patients going for surgery, the lab work he sees includes a CBC, Chem7 and a bleeding time. The Chem 7 includes a blood glucose. The bleeding time determines how long it takes for blood to clot.

My daughter had a tonsillectomy twice because they grew back. The above referenced blood work was done. With Jahi, If there were any abnormal lab values, their indications/implications should have been addressed pre-op. That responsibility would fall on the pediatrician and the surgeon. JMO,JMPO,JMV, MOO

 

[newmrsc]

I am just not sure Jahi can be considered a corpse. Definitions of the word corpse indicate one with complete cessation of all bodily functions, including heartbeat. I don't know that I have ever heard of a ventilated corpse either.

Corpse is probably more of a colloquialism, at least under California law, where I believe it's more frequently cited as human remains. I did a quick search for law on this to see if I found any answers.

Here's a link to the law regarding disturbance of human remains: http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=hsc&group=07001-08000&file=7050.5-7055

Human remains defined:

"Human remains" or "remains" means the body of a deceased
person, regardless of its stage of decomposition, and cremated
remains.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=hsc&group=06001-07000&file=7000-7025

7180 has been cited frequently but here it is for clarification: http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=hsc&group=07001-08000&file=7180

 

[Steft50]

".... Children's had fortified itself to carry out it's plan if execution. It had cleared the family from the waiting room, tripled the security, barricaded the front doors..."

Read more: http://m.sfexaminer.com/sanfrancisc...ht-over-jahi-mcmaths-life/Content?oid=2663281

Obviously the part about "execution" is grandstanding but IMO if Children's indeed did this, it makes me extremely uncomfortable and sad as a parent.

I don't believe the word "grandstanding" is accurate, this was a carefully worded writing whose sole intention is to create anger in the population that is following this story. It appears to be so carefully worded that it leads the public to think the parents and family had been removed from the hospital when in reality it says no such thing aside from an increase of outside security and having members of the family to vacate 1 waiting room. There is no comment on where they went.

 

[kytty]

I never said I believed the mother wasn't in the room. In my own opinion I still think that it's awful and that it should have never gotten to the point of triple security and the barricading of doors against family members. It's a circus and CHO is just as much to blame as anyone for their poor handling of this case.

 

[Morag]

http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/02/opini...n=Feed:+rss/cnn_topstories+(RSS:+Top+Stories)

A significant minority in the medical profession continue to believe people with dead brains and beating hearts are still alive. Believers include some of our wisest minds -- a Harvard professor, an National Institute of Health theorist, a chief of neurology at UCLA, and the former chair of the U.S. President's Council all reject brain-based death pronouncement. They agree with Jahi's parents that death is linked to circulatory loss.

 

[Karmady]

I don't believe the word "grandstanding" is accurate, this was a carefully worded writing whose sole intention is to create anger in the population that is following this story. It appears to be so carefully worded that it leads the public to think the parents and family had been removed from the hospital when in reality it says no such thing aside from an increase of outside security and having members of the family to vacate 1 waiting room. There is no comment on where they went.

Exactly. The sentence is intended to get the reader to fill in the blank the way the lawyer would like them to since he can't flat out lie himself. Whenever a lawyer writes something like this it's just as important (if not more so) to pay attention to what they DON'T say as it is what they do say.

jmo

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

It's actually pretty common. A very popular song by Nelly was the first time I heard the phrase "thicky, thicky thick girl"

from the urban dictionary:

Thick
A woman with a perfect body, filled-in in places that are, by nature, designed to attract the opposite sex, such as the thighs, the hips, the breasts, and the most lovely part of all, the booty

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=thick

I'm not into pop/rock/rap, but thanks for the info. I've heard "fluffy" which sounds nicer but is still nothing more than a euphemism for an individual who is overweight or obese. Given the UD definition, I'm :furious: that Jahi's mother referred to her daughter by this term: Jahi is a child! :moo:

 

[thistle]

Not sure if the Daily Mail is considered MSM, but here are more comments by Jahi's mother-
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...eteriorated-moments-woke-routine-surgery.html

 

[Linda7NJ]

Stages of grief! Unbelievably painful to go through.

I have no malice toward this mother. Only compassion. I don't understand how. So many can be so callous and disrespectful toward her
I don't share her beliefs but I wouldn't shake her and tell her "she's dead dead dead" either. I'd hug her.

I'm still upset hospital staff, according to mom, keep referring to this child as "the body"
It's beyond disrespectful.


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[popsicle]

I never said I believed the mother wasn't in the room. In my own opinion I still think that it's awful and that it should have never gotten to the point of triple security and the barricading of doors against family members. It's a circus and CHO is just as much to blame as anyone for their poor handling of this case.

Who said that? bbm

 

[Morag]

SNIP...

Even though the attorney can "try", these actions won't "fly" in the future court proceedings. They will only fly with a particular portion of the public.

What portion of the public are you referring to? I am well-educated and usually supportive of science rather than emotion, but I find myself on the side of Jahi's mother. And I'm not overly religious, either. I am a mother, though, so perhaps that would be the common denominator?

 

[newmrsc]

http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/02/opini...n=Feed:+rss/cnn_topstories+(RSS:+Top+Stories)

A significant minority in the medical profession continue to believe people with dead brains and beating hearts are still alive. Believers include some of our wisest minds -- a Harvard professor, an National Institute of Health theorist, a chief of neurology at UCLA, and the former chair of the U.S. President's Council all reject brain-based death pronouncement. They agree with Jahi's parents that death is linked to circulatory loss.

I read this article and found it interesting. I was hoping someone would write something that summed up schools of thought on brain death. However, I can't agree with the author's contention that we should leave it up to parents to decide and insurance companies should pay for it. I can see that causing a lot of problems. Potentially an insurance company would want to know ahead of time about your religious convictions then, as we're talking medicals bills in the thousands, hundreds of thousands range for this sort of prolonged medical intervention, that they're on the hook for. And what about the doctors whose firm religious belief is that a brain dead person is deceased and therefore it's unethical for them to do any kind of procedures? Then you're doctor shopping to find people willing to do these things. It's a nice idea that we can all decide, but I'm not sure it works. That's all JMO!

 

[Isabelle]

Corpse is probably more of a colloquialism, at least under California law, where I believe it's more frequently cited as human remains. I did a quick search for law on this to see if I found any answers.

Here's a link to the law regarding disturbance of human remains: http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=hsc&group=07001-08000&file=7050.5-7055

Human remains defined: http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=hsc&group=06001-07000&file=7000-7025

7180 has been cited frequently but here it is for clarification: http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=hsc&group=07001-08000&file=7180

7180 gives many good definitions/descriptions. Is there a section that defines "deceased person"? Thanks

 

[Linda7NJ]

I'm not into pop/rock/rap, but thanks for the info. I've heard "fluffy" which sounds nicer but is still nothing more than a euphemism for an individual who is overweight or obese. Given the UD definition, I'm :furious: that Jahi's mother referred to her daughter by this term: Jahi is a child! :moo:

Don't be furious. It's common and perfectly acceptable in black communities. Often it's taken as a compliment.


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[BeginnersLuck]

I'm not into pop/rock/rap, but thanks for the info. I've heard "fluffy" which sounds nicer but is still nothing more than a euphemism for an individual who is overweight or obese. Given the UD definition, I'm :furious: that Jahi's mother referred to her daughter by this term: Jahi is a child! :moo:

Some consider it to be a desirable and healthy trait to have. I have seen in dating profiles, men that prefer thick women. A lot of cultures or just families in general, consider having extra weight as healthy. Food and a healthy appetite, are a big part of many lives as the sharing and eating of food is very important in the dynamics of some cultures and families.

I have seen many that are considered of healthy weight by medical terms, told that they are to skinny by others of different beliefs, traditions, etc.

 

[Zuri]

Not all bleeding or clotting disorders can be determined from those pre-operative blood tests. They address the issues that correlate to the most common complications. An accurate patient and familial history is very important, especially if it deals with blood. My family has a history of something called Factor V Leiden syndrome, a clotting issue that cannot be gleaned from basic bloodwork.

Absolutely correct. The diagnosis of a bleeding disorder has to be further tested. A bleeding time though may give you a clue further diagnostics are needed. There are a lot of patients that are poor historians so it is incumbent on the treating physician to perform due diligence.

Disclaimer perhaps Needed: My posts are general and based on my own fund of knowledge. I am not addressing specificities as there are few to be had from the Medical Record that have been released. I am not trying to mislead anyone. My posts are IMO, IMPO, JMV, JMO, IMO, IMV, IME. Incorporating 30 years of experience is what I personally draw from. I try very hard not to post in absolutes and I apologize if I have not addressed specifics vs. generalities. I take what I post here very seriously as I hold myself to a higher standard than a non medical person. Thanks for bearing with me.

 

[newmrsc]

I have no malice toward this mother. Only compassion. I don't understand how. So many can be so callous and disrespectful toward her
I don't share her beliefs but I wouldn't shake her and tell her "she's dead dead dead" either. I'd hug her.

I'm still upset hospital staff, according to mom, keep referring to this child as "the body"
It's beyond disrespectful.


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I can understand this point of view and respect you for it. If indeed someone shouted that the child was "dead dead dead," it's unfortunate and a terrible way to phrase things, but on the other hand, we have to remember that with the doctors and with the family, neither side should be demonized. We have to assume that doctors at a children's hospital are in the profession because they want to help kids. I can certainly understand being frustrated and overwhelmed. Think of the guilt they may be feeling and the sadness of this situation. It shouldn't have happened, they shouldn't have said it, but everyone in this situation is human, including the doctors who may or may not have made mistakes, but either way, still had a child die under their care and undoubtedly feel the effects of that.

Also, under the law Jahi is a body now, as she is deceased. This is all speculation and my opinion, but I have family in the medical profession and professional ties to law enforcement. It's quite common to try to separate the dead from the living to cope when you see death on a regular basis. Should they do it in front of the family? Probably not. But I sincerely doubt that the medical staff is trying to be callous, disrespectful, hard-hearted, or any of the above. That's JMO on the matter, but they work at a children's hospital and have also been put through quite a difficult situation here. Not as much as the parents, of course, and I would never try to belittle the family's grief, but just trying to remember that everyone involved is a human with complicated emotions in a tragic case.

 

[Isabelle]

I have no malice toward this mother. Only compassion. I don't understand how. So many can be so callous and disrespectful toward her
I don't share her beliefs but I wouldn't shake her and tell her "she's dead dead dead" either. I'd hug her.

I'm still upset hospital staff, according to mom, keep referring to this child as "the body"
It's beyond disrespectful.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

I agree. Any and all staff referring to Jahi as "the body" should be reported to their respective licensing boards. This is never acceptable behavior. When preparing a deceased patient for transport to the morgue, we have always referred to them by their name and Mr. or Ms. or Mrs and a child by the child's given name.

 

[newmrsc]

7180 gives many good definitions/descriptions. Is there a section that defines "deceased person"? Thanks

I think it would just be in 7180 where it states that a person who has undergone brain death is dead.

 

[Herat]

. A bleeding time though may give you a clue further diagnostics are needed.

A bleeding time is considered an innacurate and obsolete test that is no longer offered in most hospitals.