Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #3

[Deleted member 110058]

https://twitter.com/mgafni

actual copy of agreement between family and the hospital

 

[popsicle]

insidebayarea ‏@insidebayarea 1m
RT @kjbender: Still in front of federal court in #Oakland waiting for more possible news on the fate of 13 yr. old #JahiMcMath

 

[Elley Mae]

This case has the potential to set such a damaging precedent. To think that people, through their own ignorance (and I don't mean that as a pejorative, I truly don't think this family intellectually understands the physiology of what has gone on with this child, and have limitations due to their religious beliefs) have been allowed to perpetuate this farce of continued legal proceedings after a declaration of brain death….it's mind boggling. I feel like I'm in bizzaro world or something. What, every time a family member doesn't like, believe, trust, or agree with the inevitability of death, are the courts going to be having to interject in this manner? This is absolutely ridiculous. That vent should have been court ordered to be turned off when the declaration of brain death was made. Period.

Agreeing with you on this post, and also asking if anyone knows.
Could the judge have not taken this case and allowed the hospital to exercise it's right under the law as it was? TIA

 

[BeginnersLuck]

I found this interesting.

A BRAIN-DEAD BODY CAN STILL FUNCTION
Many doctors consider this an appropriate definition and say that misdiagnoses are rare. Others have a problem with the very concept and say that brain death is not enough. They point to the fact that a brain-dead pregnant mother can continue to gestate and give birth, and the body can eliminate cell waste, heal wounds, and fight infections.[8]

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/811205_4


See that's why I can't refer to her as a corpse. To me, a corpse can not continue to gestate and give birth, eliminate cell waste, heal wounds, or fight infections.

JMO

I respect your opinion. This is kind of how I look at it. Technology will continue to advance. If at some point, technology would ever advance, although highly unlikely, to the point where a person who suffers heart failure and some kind of artificial machine can be attached to continue the circulation of blood, would society want to keep there loved ones at home or in a facility, being somewhat preserved for an indefinite or endless amount of time? Would the deceased want that?

This is just delaying the decay and breakdown of other organs. IMO

If we could embalm or taxidermy someone and they would never decay, would some want to take them home and sit them in a corner chair? I really do think a lot of people would want to do this and I'm not joking.

 

[MaybeNotToday]

Oh, I was just stealing the joke from Airplane. You know the one..

Another poster already translated that main part at the bottom. The other change is from the airvac team to the "transfer" team, I think. And another change is to healthcare facility. I think that's all of them. lol

eta: another one is "available if needed," but I don't see what that's supposed to modify

This is so strange but I had that June Cleaver response in my mind to that question too. When I saw your post, I thought "could she be referring to that" then thought, "naaaaah"
Isn't that weird? Couldn't help but go totally OT and personal.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

I think we can all agree (maybe? I don't know!) that brain death challenges our common perceptions of death. We far more often think of the cardiopulmonary definition. The idea of a 'corpse' then has certain connotations to us all. It's difficult to use that word in these situations, IMO. I think that's really the crux of this whole issue, that it challenges our long-standing ideas and perceptions and it's uncomfortable to think about. But legally, statutorily, a brain dead person is deceased. I agree it's hard to think of it as a corpse when it can still in many regards function, but I also find it critical to remember that it's functioning ONLY because of artificial means. A brain dead body would not do all of these things without extraordinary measures - a ventilator to keep oxygenating the body so the heart can beat. And there's no chance of recovery. I know I'm just reiterating what's already been said, but I just had to comment that yes, it's hard to see it that way, and maybe corpse is the wrong word to use in this situation...but as I posed upthread yesterday, under the California law I believe her body does fall under the definition of human remains at this point, hard as that is to wrap our minds around. JMO and all that.

There are so many people who disagree with the law though. Many doctors. And her family seems to disagree.

While we must obey laws, we also have to try to understand the desperation of a mother who is trying to hold on to her daughter because she believes she will get better.

We may all believe she won't, but her mother believes in miracles and this is her child.

I'm sorry. I just can't believe it's right or moral to make a mother agree to pull a plug when she thinks a miracle is coming.

Jahi's heart will stop beating on it's own. Eventually.


JMO

 

[Donjeta]

http://m.livescience.com/42301-brai...ncecom+(LiveScience.com+Science+Headline+Feed)

However, the heart's intrinsic electrical system can keep the organ beating for a short time after a person becomes brain-dead — in fact, the heart can even beat outside the body, Greene-Chandos said. But without a ventilator to keep blood and oxygen moving, this beating would stop very quickly, usually in less than an hour, Greene-Chandos said.
With just a ventilator, some biological processes — including kidney and gastric functions — can continue for about a week, Greene-Chandos said. It is also well-known that hair and nails can grow after a person is dead.
Kenneth Goodman, director of the Bioethics Program at the University of Miami, stressed that such functions do not mean the person is alive. "If you're brain-dead, you're dead, but [with technology], we can make the body do some of the things it used to do when you were alive," Goodman said.
Without the brain, the body does not secrete important hormones needed to keep biological processes — including gastric, kidney and immune functions — running for periods longer than about a week. For example, thyroid hormone is important for regulating body metabolism, and vasopressin is needed for the kidneys to retain water.
Normal blood pressure, which is also critical for bodily functions, often cannot be maintained without blood-pressure medications in a brain-dead person, Greene-Chandos said.
A brain-dead person also cannot maintain his or her own body temperature, so the body is kept warm with blankets, a high room temperature and, sometimes, warm IV fluids, Greene-Chandos said.
The body of a brain-dead person is usually not supported for very long, Greene-Chandos said. Doctors sometimes provide support (in the form of a ventilator, hormones, fluids, etc.) for several days if the organs will be used for donation, or if the family needs more time to say good-bye, Greene-Chandos said.
If all of the criteria for brain death are met, "then it's pretty clear that there's nothing left, and we're supporting the body," Greene-Chandos said.

 

[momrids6]

There are so many people who disagree with the law though. Many doctors. And her family seems to disagree.

While we must obey laws, we also have to try to understand the desperation of a mother who is trying to hold on to her daughter because she believes she will get better.

We may all believe she won't, but her mother believes in miracles and this is her child.

I'm sorry. I just can't believe it's right or moral to make a mother agree to pull a plug when she thinks a miracle is coming.

Jahi's heart will stop beating on it's own. Eventually.


JMO

There are only 16,000 + likes on the FB page- and less than 2000 donors; how many people in the world? And Byrne, for all his yammering, does not have a facility, nor the support of the Catholic Church.

The miracle story is long done and old- they are seeking $$ damages, and imo, miracles and $$ don't mix.

 

[Elley Mae]

I respect your opinion. This is kind of how I look at it. Technology will continue to advance. If at some point, technology would ever advance, although highly unlikely, to the point where a person who suffers heart failure and some kind of artificial machine can be attached to continue the circulation of blood, would society want to keep there loved ones at home or in a facility, being somewhat preserved for an indefinite or endless amount of time? Would the deceased what that?

This is just delaying the decay and breakdown of other organs. IMO

If we could embalm or taxidermy someone and they would never decay, would some want to take them home and sit them in a corner chair? I really do think a lot of people would want to do this and I'm not joking.

I believe you, I sat in a home years ago and to my amazement the beagle lay sleep on the floor just to the left corner of the fireplace. It laid there never moving, then I asked if it was deaf. Boyfriend at the time said, no it's dead.
It was stuffed and posed like it was sleeping.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

I respect your opinion. This is kind of how I look at it. Technology will continue to advance. If at some point, technology would ever advance, although highly unlikely, to the point where a person who suffers heart failure and some kind of artificial machine can be attached to continue the circulation of blood, would society want to keep there loved ones at home or in a facility, being somewhat preserved for an indefinite or endless amount of time? Would the deceased what that?

This is just delaying the decay and breakdown of other organs. IMO

If we could embalm or taxidermy someone and they would never decay, would some want to take them home and sit them in a corner chair? I really do think a lot of people would want to do this and I'm not joking.

My point is, not everybody feels that way.
There are doctors who disagree. There are clergy who disagree. There are parents who disagree.
Her mother obviously thinks she's alive. Can you imagine the torment of truly believing (due to religion or any other reason) that your child is not dead and may recover and people are telling you she's DEAD. DEAD. DEAD. and they want to pull the plug whether you agree or not.
That is heart wrenching to me.

I believe in her right to fight like hell as long as she sees fit to do what she thinks is right for her child.
Because she's her child.

Not related to your post but:
I don't think bashing this family, making jokes about this family, or nitpicking their every move serves any purpose what so ever.

 

[Kaliste]

There are so many people who disagree with the law though. Many doctors. And her family seems to disagree.

While we must obey laws, we also have to try to understand the desperation of a mother who is trying to hold on to her daughter because she believes she will get better.

We may all believe she won't, but her mother believes in miracles and this is her child.

I'm sorry. I just can't believe it's right or moral to make a mother agree to pull a plug when she thinks a miracle is coming.

Jahi's heart will stop beating on it's own. Eventually.


JMO

In THIS case the doctors "treating" Jahi do agree with the law. Jahi's family is free, welcome even, to take her home and continue waiting on that miracle.

 

[newmrsc]

There are so many people who disagree with the law though. Many doctors. And her family seems to disagree.

While we must obey laws, we also have to try to understand the desperation of a mother who is trying to hold on to her daughter because she believes she will get better.

We may all believe she won't, but her mother believes in miracles and this is her child.

I'm sorry. I just can't believe it's right or moral to make a mother agree to pull a plug when she thinks a miracle is coming.

Jahi's heart will stop beating on it's own. Eventually.


JMO

I think I would be able to agree if there weren't so many outside forces required to let the mother go on hoping for a miracle. It's wildly expensive for one thing, so it's not just the family involved. And a lot of doctors being asked to do things that they don't believe in. A lot of people do disagree with the law, but a majority agrees with it, leading to it becoming a law in the first place. JMO of course, and not trying to be argumentative! It's just that the family isn't making decisions in a vacuum, and the decisions affect a lot of people. I certainly feel for her and I admire the faith it takes to keep waiting for a miracle like that, but I also feel bad that she's continuing to cling to that hope rather than the hope and peace that could come with acceptance of her tremendous loss.

 

[jaxibear]

I just don't think a person laying in a bed on a vent is what most people think of when they hear the term corpse.

JMO

I agree with that and I personally would not call her a corpse.

However,a person lying helpless in bed hooked up to machines while courts, social media, lawyers, family, and strangers argue over what to do with her is not what I would call living. She is not going to recover.

IMHO, for the sake of her daughter's memory, her mother needs to let her go.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

There are only 16,000 + likes on the FB page- and less than 2000 donors; how many people in the world? And Byrne, for all his yammering, does not have a facility, nor the support of the Catholic Church.

Seriously?

So we are going on FB likes and # of donations to see how many people believe brain death is not complete death?

I've never liked the page or donated. Im not Catholic. So perhaps that method of calculation is flawed.

 

[popsicle]

Nick Smith ‏@nicksmithnews 2m
representatives for @hospital4kids and @cbdlaw in federal court > 5plus hours discussing #JahiMcMath pic.twitter.com/xtpo3APOd7

 

[QueenD]

I find it interesting that no surgeons have come forth to do the procedures. Even those that believe in circulatory death and not brain death.

Why do you think that is? The right to life community would embrace the surgeon as a hero to the little person that is fighting big medicine.

Cause no one in their right mind would touch this case with a 10 foot pole.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

In THIS case the doctors "treating" Jahi do agree with the law. Jahi's family is free, welcome even, to take her home and continue waiting on that miracle.

And that's in the process finally after having to battle a huge corporation to release their child.

 

[Donjeta]

What are they discussing in the fed court for so long if they already came into an agreement in the state court? Are they going to turn it upside down or what?

 

[Elley Mae]

https://twitter.com/mgafni

actual copy of agreement between family and the hospital

And if this is reliable info then it stands that if she is not moved the jan7th, 5:00 vent removal still stands.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

I agree with that and I personally would not call her a corpse.

However,a person lying helpless in bed hooked up to machines while courts, social media, lawyers, family, and strangers argue over what to do with her is not what I would call living.

IMHO, for the sake of her daughter's memory, her mother needs to let her go.

I agree. But I would never think it my right to tell her she had to.

JMO