Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #4

[MsSeal]

I had the thought that if Jahi can be sustained on the vent for a while and then starts to deteriorate where she look absolutely horrid and a former shell of herself Mrs. Winkfield will finally relent and turn off the vent. It would not surprise me if the Right to Life group and supporters turn on her if she does that.

 

[wendiesan]

IMO, when people are under a lot of stress, they just don't perceive things in quite the same way as they might in different circumstances. For instance, I think that the CHO social worker assigned to assist NW may have had the best of intentions. However, instead of being seen as someone trying to be helpful she appeared to NW to be pushing her to make faster decisions.

http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2013/12/15/girl-is-brain-dead-after-surgery-to-remove-tonsils/

'...“They just have a social worker follow me around all day long asking me ‘do you have any other family that needs to see her?’ like trying to put a rush on it,” Winkfield said.'

After reading about the number of concessions CHO made for the Winkfield/McMath family, I couldn't see how the family could feel that they had been poorly treated. This one example, though, reminded me that when my then 4 year old daughter was very ill and doctors didn't know what was wrong (turned out to be an extremely serious allergic reaction), I found everyone's attempts to help me to be very irritating. I also had trouble with way hospital staff dealt with me--but, in retrospect, I think I was so worried and tired, that if someone carrying a stethoscope just spoke quickly to me, I felt that s/he was angry with me or that s/he was accusing me of being an uncaring mother.

I'm not saying that CHO treated the family badly. Not at all. Given my own experience, though, I can see why NW's perceptions of CHO staff actions might not match with a more objective version of events. This would be particularly true at the time when NW was told about the brain death dx, IMO.

 

[fruity]

I had the thought that if Jahi can be sustained on the vent for a while and then starts to deteriorate where she look absolutely horrid and a former shell of herself Mrs. Winkfield will finally relent and turn off the vent. It would not surprise me if the Right to Life group and supporters turn on her if she does that.

This is my fear. We're not discussing the gruesome details about what is to come but many of us know exactly what her poor body will look like as she begins to decompose. As much as I disagree with the mother's actions she is going to be absolutely scarred by the horror of what will happen and nobody deserves that. I truly believe she has no idea about what lies ahead. She is setting herself up to have nightmarish last memories of her daughter. I'm praying that Jahi's heart stops beating before this happens.

I can't bring myself to write any descriptions but CaliGirl wrote a reply in her second blog post (linked earlier but I will brb). Warning - it is upsetting and disturbing to think of the sweet girl whose smile we all know going through this.

Eta link. It was the first blog post and is the 4th comment down

http://sprocket-trials.blogspot.com.au/2014/01/jahis-legacy.html?m=1

 

[K_Z]

The grandmother of the deceased is a vocational nurse certified in IV therapy. It has been reported that this grandmother was handling blood suctioning tubes on a patient in ICU two days (December 11) after a high risk patient had multiple apnea surgeries, resulting in death due to bleeding.

Why doesn't the mother, amicus ad litum, understand that the grandmother, a vocational nurse, may not understand "no apnea" in the independent medical report ... with an understanding that no apnea means no breathing? Why doesn't the patient's mother understand that above ground physical decay of a body is against every religion?

There's a good reason why every culture and religion in the world has buried bodies six feet under. It is to avoid disease. If a facility were established for dead bodies to fester, no reasonable person could be paid enough to be in that environment. It almost seems a bit insane to keep dead people among the living.

BBM. I just want to clarify some medical terminology.

"No apnea" would equate to "lots of regular breathing with no pauses". The term apnea itself means "no breathing efforts". For example, "apneic episodes" means that there are episodes of pauses in the normal rhythm of breathing.

Apnea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[gitana1]

I have to disagree...she is a deceased person

You're the one who said she needs to be afforded dignity. As a deceased person.

 

[otto]

What independent medical report?

I'm not following your train of thought, otto.

Fisher, December 23.

 

[otto]

BBM. I just want to clarify some medical terminology.

"No apnea" would equate to "lots of regular breathing with no pauses". The term apnea itself means "no breathing efforts". For example, "apneic episodes" means that there are episodes of pauses in the normal rhythm of breathing.

Apnea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I have the link to Dr Fisher's report pdf file on the laptop. It was linked here and it was the basis for the December 30 extension. I thought it said no apnea. I'll look for the pdf tomorrow.

 

[MEN3C]

I have the link to Dr Fisher's report pdf file on the laptop. It was linked here and it was the basis for the December 30 extension. I thought it said no apnea. I'll look for the pdf tomorrow.

I believe he said 'failed apnea test.'

-http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/30/health/jahi-mcmath-girl-brain-dead/

 

[Donjeta]

Although the brother of Terri Schiavo has rallied to Jahi’s parents’ side, Schiavo was not brain-dead. She had some brain stem functioning. The life-support-or-death fight over Schiavo turned on the issue of her quality of life without consciousness.

Such distinctions are a 20th-century dilemma, said William Colby. He is the ethicist and attorney who successfully argued for the parents of Nancy Cruzan to be permitted in 1990 to remove life support for their permanently unconscious daughter. The case turned on testimony by someone who said Cruzan would not have wanted to endure on machines.

“It is so hard to communicate the legal definition of death because, for most of recorded time, we didn’t have one and we didn’t need one. Your heart, your brain and your lungs all stopped at the same time. Technology has changed that equation,” said Colby, who is now general counsel for Truman Medical Centers in Kansas City, Mo.

But technology can keep people apparently “alive,” leaving patients or their families with wrenching decisions. Two states, New Jersey and New York, allow religious exemptions for people who refuse to accept brain death criteria.

Research shows Americans have mixed views on when to let go of life. Two in three U.S. adults (66 percent) say there are circumstances when a patient should be allowed to die, according to a Pew Research study released in November.

However, the answers are flipped if the question is asked about babies: 57 percent say an infant should receive as much treatment as possible in the case of a life-threatening birth defect, even if parents want to refuse treatment.

http://www.religionnews.com/2014/01/03/family-ethics-medicine-law-collide-jahi-mcmaths-life-death/

 

[Day Dreamer]

Originally Posted by Day Dreamer View Post
Like most of the posters here and on news sites, I also would like to know the truth of what has happened from the beginning. It's beyond frustrating trying to figure out truth from fiction in almost every aspect of this case. However, I do have to say that it really, really bothers me that there are millions of hate filled comments floating around the internet regarding this innocent 13 year old girl. Regardless of how this happened and how it has progressed to this point ... none of it was her fault.

I agree that Jahi probably won't be able to recover from this; but, at this point, it is just flat out wrong for the doctors, nurses, attorneys, all the way down to online posters to constantly refer to her as "the body", "the deceased", "the corpse", etc. Whether she really is brain dead or not she is still an innocent 13 year old little girl named JAHI. Is it really too much to ask that everyone continue to refer to her as Jahi instead of the hurtful titles I posted above? We all know the only reason she is being referred to by those titles is to hurt her family. It's extremely shameful that it started with the doctors and staff of CHO. Shameful!!!

I do not intend to insult anyone with this post, nor is it directed at any particular person; but, after following this case for weeks I just really needed to say that. May God Bless this little girl's soul ... wherever that may be. lease:

I don't think that there is any mystery surrounding what happened. A 13 year old with several medical issues required surgery, on December 9, to assist with breathing. After that surgery, the child developed a known risk associated with the surgery and subsequently died on December 12. Because she was in a benevolent hospital, a ventilator was attached to the deceased child so her loved ones could say their good byes. The family requested that the ventilator remain turned on until after Christmas. A court order was then requested that the ventilator for the deceased patient be turned off, and that was ordered for December 30. An appeal was made where the lawyer claimed that there are facilities that care for deceased persons.

A person is deemed brain dead and deceased when that person is unable to breath, speak, move, the five sense will never function again, and so on. A CT scan today would probably reveal darkness.

I didn't mean mystery as in what happened medically. I totally understand that the hemorrhaging led to her heart stopping which led to lack of oxygen to the brain causing brain death.

I was referring to what was linked to in the last thread that the family may have not followed post-op procedures. I'd like to know WHY she hemorrhaged. I'd like to know exactly what the hospital staff did when it became clear there was a serious complication. I'd like to know what the hospital meant when they said a lot of untruths have been told. I'd like to know how much of what WE know from MSM is actually true and not blown out of proportion. Because of HIPAA laws we may never know.

If they truly want their side out they can get it out with violating HIPAA laws ... all they have to do is detail it in the court documents which become public.

Jahi's family has truly tarnished the hospital's reputation. Was it warranted because it was true? I have no idea; but, I do know the hospital lawyers/spokespersons really offended me and also tarnished their own reputations with their blatant lack of empathy.

Yes, this little girl probably is dead; however, it isn't necessary to refuse to address the little girl by her name. They have addressed her publicly as "the body", "the deceased", "the corpse", etc; and, they certainly have never missed an opportunity to address this little girl by those terms. If they have said these things publicly and to the media I can only imagine what they are saying to the family in private meetings. It's totally uncalled for.

I also think it was totally uncalled for to turn her over to the coroner and issue a death certificate while her heart is still beating. That should have only been done once her heart has stopped. That's just my opinion anyway.

Had the hospital taken a different approach maybe this wouldn't have gotten so unnecessarily ugly. People do things out of grief that they would never ordinarily do. We should take that into consideration. We are still talking about a 13 year old little girl here that did absolutely nothing wrong.

 

[Sedonia Sunset]

I've been reading up on pro-bono attorneys, and I *think* that, even if he isn't being paid by the family, he will be entitled to a percentage of any monetary settlements/awards. Any of our legal eagles, please correct me if I'm misunderstanding the way this works!

Does he get to write off the otherwise-billable hours for tax purposes? That could be a partial incentive. In any case, he couldn't BUY publicity like this. He's now known all over the world without having to pay a cent to an ad agency, billboard company, printing service, or side of a bus. Other people with medical legal issues might remember him and hope he takes their case. Just the fact that he's been on TV and in the news at large means his name is out there on a large scale. In the end, people may remember his name, but be fuzzy on details of the case. I just keep thinking of Breaking Bad and "Better call Saul!"

 

[Day Dreamer]

I really feel for this mother. As a mother myself, I don't know if I could give up on my child. I think I would probably be in a severe state of denial like this mother is. I hope and pray that God would give me the strength to do the right thing for my child; and, if possible, donate my child's organs to save other children.

As a mother, and a believer of miracles, I have been praying for a miracle for this little girl; but, I have also been praying for God to help this mother to know what the right thing to do for her child is and help give her the strength to do what she needs to do. I just can't even begin to imagine how devastating this all is for this mother ... and I certainly don't want to either.

With that said, if it were me in that position, I would want my family to let me go. Even if I had some brain activity, if I would not be able to live my own life I would rather pass on. I am also a strong believer in organ donation. I am an organ donor. If my death could help other people live that would be a great gift to me.

If I were faced with having to lose my child, I would definitely do organ donation. As much as I love my child, if I were to lose him, I would at least want a part of him to live on ... even if that is within someone else.

I do know the pain of losing a child. I was recently pregnant with twins, after trying to conceive again for over five years. Unfortunately I lost them both. My body refused to naturally miscarry; so, I had to undergo surgery to have them removed. It was one of the most devastating things I have ever had to endure; and, there were days that I didn't think I could (or even wanted) to go on. However, like Jahi's mom, I have another child that needs me here with him. I wouldn't wish this kind of pain on anyone because you never get over losing a child. :cry:

 

[Donjeta]

I didn't mean mystery as in what happened medically. I totally understand that the hemorrhaging led to her heart stopping which led to lack of oxygen to the brain causing brain death.

I was referring to what was linked to in the last thread that the family may have not followed post-op procedures. I'd like to know WHY she hemorrhaged. I'd like to know exactly what the hospital staff did when it became clear there was a serious complication. I'd like to know what the hospital meant when they said a lot of untruths have been told. I'd like to know how much of what WE know from MSM is actually true and not blown out of proportion. Because of HIPAA laws we may never know.

If they truly want their side out they can get it out with violating HIPAA laws ... all they have to do is detail it in the court documents which become public.

Jahi's family has truly tarnished the hospital's reputation. Was it warranted because it was true? I have no idea; but, I do know the hospital lawyers/spokespersons really offended me and also tarnished their own reputations with their blatant lack of empathy.

Yes, this little girl probably is dead; however, it isn't necessary to refuse to address the little girl by her name. They have addressed her publicly as "the body", "the deceased", "the corpse", etc; and, they certainly have never missed an opportunity to address this little girl by those terms. If they have said these things publicly and to the media I can only imagine what they are saying to the family in private meetings. It's totally uncalled for.

I also think it was totally uncalled for to turn her over to the coroner and issue a death certificate while her heart is still beating. That should have only been done once her heart has stopped. That's just my opinion anyway.

Had the hospital taken a different approach maybe this wouldn't have gotten so unnecessarily ugly. People do things out of grief that they would never ordinarily do. We should take that into consideration. We are still talking about a 13 year old little girl here that did absolutely nothing wrong.

MOO
I don't think we can assume anything about the level of empathy in the private conversations of the hospital staff on the basis of the hospital spokespersons. They are lawyers and primarily concerned with the legal aspect and probably never meet with the family without the family attorney and judges present. Any private conversations about Jahi's care, prognosis, current status etc. would have happened with some other people.

Maybe one of the board attorneys can weigh in but I think the hospital may not have had a choice to wait and not to involve the coroner if they want to observe the law.

Each death shall be registered with the local registrar of births and deaths in the district in which the death was officially pronounced or the body was found, within eight calendar days after death and prior to any disposition of the human remains.

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/cacode/HSC/1/d102/1/6/1/s102775

I'm not sure if they'd start counting the 8 days from December 12th when she was pronounced brain dead by the hospital or the court date just before Christmas when the judge officially agreed, but either way those 8 days are gone now, and the family wants to move Jahi from the hospital, which apparently is technically considered disposition of human remains now that she is legally deceased.

 

[Donjeta]

"He" in the following is John Di Camillo of the National Catholic Bioethics Center in Washington, D.C
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/catholic-bioethicist-advises-caution-in-jahi-mcmath-case/

He said Catholic teaching holds that “full brain death” criteria are legitimate indicators that the patient has died. However, he also warned about “misleading language” which uses the term “brain death” to describe those who are brain damaged or in states of reduced consciousness where a patient may still have brain stem function.

Patients deserve proportionate care that offers a reasonable hope of benefiting them without imposing an “excessive burden,” he said.

Catholic ethics do not support the mentality of “life at all costs,” but rather promotes life “within reason and within the context of one’s circumstances, possibilities, pain, suffering.” The bioethicist said there is a basic obligation to protect life “within the limits of reason and the limits of that proportionality”

Di Camillo again noted that appropriate treatment depends on the facts of the case. Life support systems are sometimes ordinary means of treatment and sometimes disproportionate.

“It’s not an absolute. It has to be determined on a case-by-case basis, in light of the facts,” he said.

 

[Snoods]

The US could be the first country in the world to build facilities to house dead people so that the families can just sit with their deceased relatives.

We already have those. They're called cemeteries

 

[Day Dreamer]

I am a person of great faith and belief I also know that we haven't heard of a person rising up from the hospital bed after being confirmed brain dead...my God can work like that but doesn't. If I am wrong please correct me...I don't watch the news much and Lazarus happened a long time ago.

There are a lot of cases of people waking after being pronounced "Brain Dead" as you can see from the article below. My guess would be that Jahi's mother is clinging to those cases in her desperate attempt to save her daughter.

From what has been reported it doesn't sound like that will happen for Jahi; but, I'm not sure everything we have read in MSM is 100% accurate. I really want to keep hoping Jahi was just misdiagnosed; but, the fact that 6 doctors have diagnosed her as "brain dead" and the fact that she's had weeks to wake up but hasn't yet is really hard to get past. I can see why her mother doesn't trust any of the doctors.


NY woman declared ‘brain dead’ woke up moments before organs harvested

SYRACUSE, NY, July 9, 2013 (LifeSiteNews.com) - A woman who was pronounced brain dead by doctors unexpectedly woke up just as her organs were about to be removed for transplant.

Doctors at St. Joseph's Hospital Health Center were called on the carpet by the state Health Department for not properly determining if Colleen S. Burns was actually dead before they sought permission from her family to harvest her organs and scheduled the procedure.

Burns, 41, of Syracuse, New York, was taken to hospital in October 2009 after a drug overdose.

<snip>

The Health Department's investigation uncovered a series of mistakes and miscommunications that culminated in a situation that was saved only because Burns opened her eyes on the operating table.

<snip>

This is not the first time that a potential organ donor has woken up literally on the operating table, moments before they were opened up.

In 2008, a 45-year-old Frenchman revived on the operating table as doctors prepared to “harvest” his organs for donation, following cardiac arrest. In the subsequent investigation by the hospital’s ethics committee, a number of doctors admitted that such cases, while rare, were well known to them.

That same year, a “brain dead” 21-year-old American, Zack Dunlap, was about to have his organs harvested when his two sisters, both nurses, decided to test the hospital’s theory that his brain was no longer functioning. Family members poked his feet with a knife and dug their fingernails under his nails, provoking strong reactions by Dunlap and proving he was conscious. He recovered completely. He later related that he was conscious and aware as doctors discussed harvesting his organs in his presence.

The term “brain death” was invented in 1968 to accommodate the need to acquire vital organs in their “freshest” state from a donor who some argue is still very much alive.

While death had previously been defined as lack of respiration and heart activity, “brain death” was judged as compatible with an otherwise living patient. “Brain death” has never been rigorously defined, and there are no standardized tests to determine if the condition exists.


http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/ny...-dead-woke-up-moments-before-organs-harvested

 

[Elley Mae]

We already have those. They're called cemeteries

Now that is funny. Thanks I needed that. :floorlaugh:

 

[txsvicki]

These who woke up are the ones we know about. I wonder how many said to be brain dead really weren't, but felt the operation to harvest organs or had ventilators turned off when they might have survived an illness or drug overdose.

 

[Day Dreamer]

I would bet money that Jahi's family and attorney are searching the internet for every case they can find like this to support their claim. After reading a lot of these myself I would probably be questioning such a diagnosis if it were given to my child.

I wish we had more details from the doctors. From what I have read in court documents it does sound like something like this happening to Jahi would be next to impossible. It sounds like they have done thorough test by multiple doctors.


Film on teen who awoke from coma before having organs harvested stirs 'brain death' debate

COPENHAGEN, Denmark, October 18, 2012, (LifeSiteNews.com) - A documentary titled &#8220;Pigen der ikke ville dø&#8221; (&#8220;The girl who refused to die&#8221, which aired last week on Danish TV, tells the story of 19-year-old Carina Melchior, a 19 year-old girl who awoke from a coma after doctors asked her family to consider donating her organs. The film has raised concern again over inexact criteria for brain death prior to organ donation.

The documentary followed Melchior&#8217;s family after she was taken to Aarhus University Hospital to be treated for injuries from a car accident.

Last October, Carina was admitted to hospital with severe injuries and slipped into a coma. Doctors advised her parents that there was little chance for her survival, that brain death would probably occur within days, and suggested withdrawing life support and making preparations for organ donation.

The parents agreed, and Carina was taken off her respirator but continued to breathe on her own.

To the astonishment of her parents and hospital staff, Carina suddenly began moving her legs and opening her eyes.

Carina&#8217;s parents claim that doctors took her off life support too soon, because they were desperate for donated organs.

Kim Melchior, Carina&#8217;s father, said, &#8220;Those bandits in the white coats gave up too quickly, because they wanted an organ donor.&#8221;

Danish media report that Carina is making a good recovery in a rehabilitation center, where she is regaining her speech and mobility - even riding her horse Mathilde - and hopes to complete her third year of high school, as she was doing when the accident happened.

<snip>

Earlier this month, a lawsuit launched in New York stated that at least one in five patients declared &#8220;brain dead&#8221; are still alive and are being killed by the removal of vital organs.

http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/fi...ma-before-having-organs-harvested-stirs-39bra

 

[Day Dreamer]

These who woke up are the ones we know about. I wonder how many said to be brain dead really weren't, but felt the operation to harvest organs or had ventilators turned off when they might have survived an illness or drug overdose.

That's a truly terrifying thought. :facepalm: