Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #4

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Two page article:

http://www.latimes.com/local/la-me-0104-banks-jahi-mcmath-20140104,0,6691480.column?page=1&track=rss

In Jahi McMath saga, science and religion clash

Families of brain-dead patients need compassion and understanding, not lawyers or PR consultants.



I don't know... it seems to me that many or most of these things probably were done or at least attempted in the beginning, it just didn't work the way it was supposed to. The first brain death examination was on the 11th and it didn't become a court case until the 17th when they were going to end life support. CHO's response included information about many the supportive measures that were made available for the family.

The first thing that struck me was the date for turning off life support knowing the mother believes her child is alive. CHRISTMAS TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Ionce you are past the mid december dates, you are talking about telling a mom you are going to kill their child on the most sacred of holiday times for most christians. It was unconscionable. i say kill her child bc they knew it was what mom believed.

I had little empathy for CHO after that, it was clear they just wanted a dead body moved out and forget how that would impact the holiday time for decades ahead. If the family had agreed, different story. IIRC they were even considering christmas eve or day as a date to turn it off Who does that?? My doctor is so considerate of holidays that i have heard him tell residents not to call the family with terminal or negative results on a friday, let them have the weekend and that is just news on tests. Nothing can be done on the weekend as far as specialists etc. in most cases (obviously if it was life threatening immediately it would be handled differently) so let them have the peace. It wouldn't have hurt Jahi to let her lie in peace with the ventilator over christmas and new years.
 
I want to address the ideas mentioned up thread, of doing further tests on Jahi to try and convince her mother that she is deceased.

The hospitals policy, as well as other hospital policies across the country, is to give the family reasonable time to gather prior to removing the ventilator from those that have been declared brain dead. Unlike in a coma or vegetative state, it is not the families choice as to whether the ventilator is removed from those that are declared brain dead. In other words, they don't ask the family if they can remove the ventilator, it is policy that they automatically do so after a few days.

The hospital extended this time from the normal protocol for the McMaths. Then the courts extended it further. As noted in court documents, the hospital has provided counseling and pastoral care for the entire family during this entire time.

The hospitals primary responsibility is to the patient, which includes doing what is ethically and legally appropriate. They have a responsibility to treat Jahi with dignity and respect. As far as family of the deceased are concerned, the hospital provides grief counseling, which they have done throughout this time. The family are NOT patients of the hospital unless they are admitted.

The hospital should not entertain those that are mentally unstable by continuing to perform tests, procedure, etc., on the deceased, because a mentally unstable family member is in denial. One of the top experts in the country has been brought in to confirm Jahi's status.

As a society we should never let those that are unstable dictate the rules. We get them help to understand reality. This is exactly why this case is where it is now. Imagine, if all those in need of mental health treatment were allowed to turn upside down hospital procedures and tie up the courts at all levels with emergency filings because they are able to find an attorney to do so. Even when there are already established laws in place. Imagine the absolute chaos that would ensue all over the country and how this would affect the treatment and daily care of other patients and how it would affect others rights to their time in court.

This has been allowed to go way to far and has to stop.

Jahi's mother is now free to take Jahi from the hospital. Through the courts, the hospital is now free of any liability that may arise once the transfer in Jahi's room begins to take place.

Now, it is up to Jahi's mother and her attorney to move Jahi elsewhere, otherwise the hospital will remove the ventilator on Tuesday, unless the attorney is successful in getting another extension.
 
I've been reading up on pro-bono attorneys, and I *think* that, even if he isn't being paid by the family, he will be entitled to a percentage of any monetary settlements/awards. Any of our legal eagles, please correct me if I'm misunderstanding the way this works!

I'm not sure about the pro bono situation. But, as some of us saw in another major recent case, lawyers who initially said they were working for free are now claiming to have incurred $2 million in attorneys fees which they would, presumably, seek to collect if one could get blood from a stone.

Wrt to the medmal case, though, he can refer the case and be entitled to part of the handling attorneys' contingency fee. Here's a link to a Cali law firm discussing this type of relationship.

http://jacksonandwilson.com/attorney-referrals/

jmo
 
Two page article:

http://www.latimes.com/local/la-me-0104-banks-jahi-mcmath-20140104,0,6691480.column?page=1&track=rss

In Jahi McMath saga, science and religion clash

Families of brain-dead patients need compassion and understanding, not lawyers or PR consultants.



I don't know... it seems to me that many or most of these things probably were done or at least attempted in the beginning, it just didn't work the way it was supposed to. The first brain death examination was on the 11th and it didn't become a court case until the 17th when they were going to end life support. CHO's response included information about many the supportive measures that were made available for the family.

I have no doubts that the hospital did all of these things to try and help the family come to terms with the reality of the situation. They would do everything they can help the family with a resolution to this. The attorney & family took it to court.
 
The first thing that struck me was the date for turning off life support knowing the mother believes her child is alive. CHRISTMAS TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Ionce you are past the mid december dates, you are talking about telling a mom you are going to kill their child on the most sacred of holiday times for most christians. It was unconscionable. i say kill her child bc they knew it was what mom believed.

I had little empathy for CHO after that, it was clear they just wanted a dead body moved out and forget how that would impact the holiday time for decades ahead. If the family had agreed, different story. IIRC they were even considering christmas eve or day as a date to turn it off Who does that?? My doctor is so considerate of holidays that i have heard him tell residents not to call the family with terminal or negative results on a friday, let them have the weekend and that is just news on tests. Nothing can be done on the weekend as far as specialists etc. in most cases (obviously if it was life threatening immediately it would be handled differently) so let them have the peace. It wouldn't have hurt Jahi to let her lie in peace with the ventilator over christmas and new years.

Doe your doctor also instruct residents not to advise families if their family member dies on Christmas Eve? Do they wait until after Christmas? After New Years Day? Because that's the analogous situation, imo. Not test results or a bad dx. jmo
 
So if he doesn't prevail in the Violation of Privacy / Religious rights, in which case he gets paid, I assume he has a great interest in pursing more suits and involving this family further in legal wrangling with the hospital.

So, in essence, he has a very strong financial incentive to continue to involve the family in tying up court after court after court to get his payment.

It would be prudent to be mindful of this in all that transpires
 
http://www.contracostatimes.com/dani...ped?source=pkg

This link appeared back on page 4 of this thread, but I truly believe it needs repeating. The content of that article needs to be printed in all newspapers covering this sad saga. It also needs to be read by any and all media doing the same. There is just SO MUCH misinformation (deliberately?) out there. IMO, JMO, etc.
 
Doe your doctor also instruct residents not to advise families if their family member dies on Christmas Eve? Do they wait until after Christmas? After New Years Day? Because that's the analogous situation, imo. Not test results or a bad dx. jmo

No. Doctors pronounce people legally dead when they determine they are, indeed, legally dead. And they date and time the note in the chart. It is a legal document. After a decent time for the family to gather or mourn at the bedside, the hospital asks about funeral arrangements and calls the funeral home to retrieve the body. Not any more than 12 hours, I'd guess.

Do you think a doctor is going to tell the RN to just keep Mr. Smith's body in the room for a day or two until Christmas is over?
 
The first thing that struck me was the date for turning off life support knowing the mother believes her child is alive. CHRISTMAS TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Ionce you are past the mid december dates, you are talking about telling a mom you are going to kill their child on the most sacred of holiday times for most christians. It was unconscionable. i say kill her child bc they knew it was what mom believed.

I had little empathy for CHO after that, it was clear they just wanted a dead body moved out and forget how that would impact the holiday time for decades ahead. If the family had agreed, different story. IIRC they were even considering christmas eve or day as a date to turn it off Who does that?? My doctor is so considerate of holidays that i have heard him tell residents not to call the family with terminal or negative results on a friday, let them have the weekend and that is just news on tests. Nothing can be done on the weekend as far as specialists etc. in most cases (obviously if it was life threatening immediately it would be handled differently) so let them have the peace. It wouldn't have hurt Jahi to let her lie in peace with the ventilator over christmas and new years.

JMO, it makes no real difference. It is quite reasonable imo not to call patients with bad news on Friday because they're going to have a hard time getting anyone on the phone the next couple of days if they have any questions (supposing they don't need any urgent treatment that can't wait until Monday). But there is never a good time for a mother to hear that her child is dead/ is going to die/is going to be killed.

I know the family said it was more terrible because it was Christmas but it's January now and they're still not okay with it. They would never have said, OK, no holidays in sight, it's all right for you to kill her now as long as you do it quick, well before Valentine's day.

If they believe she's alive and the hospital is going to murder her by disconnecting the vent, the time of the year is not relevant. They're not going to agree at any time of year.
 
Doe your doctor also instruct residents not to advise families if their family member dies on Christmas Eve? Do they wait until after Christmas? After New Years Day? Because that's the analogous situation, imo. Not test results or a bad dx. jmo

Not really, apparently she was brain dead on the 11th. Either turn it off then or allow the family past the holidays. I have no issue with them advising the family she is dead then but when they asked to hold off extubating her and turning off life support, for some reason they decided to wait until holiday time when kids are coming home from college, when the shopping goes on and many early christian dates occur.

It is saying to a family who doesn't believe she is dead, so sad, to bad, we are going to cut her off on christmas even and she SURE will be dead then right? all bright eyed and innocent but telling a horrible thing to a grieving mom
 
So if he doesn't prevail in the Violation of Privacy / Religious rights, in which case he gets paid, I assume he has a great interest in pursing more suits and involving this family further in legal wrangling with the hospital.

So, in essence, he has a very strong financial incentive to continue to involve the family in tying up court after court after court to get his payment.

It would be prudent to be mindful of this in all that transpires

Exactly! He is taking full advantage of Jahi's mothers state of mind.

He know the laws. He is an attorney for goodness sake! He knows what legally can and cannot be done. Yet, he has accused the hospital of doing or not doing things that he knows they can't legally and ethically do. He is full aware that no other facility, let alone some outpatient facility can take her. He is full aware that physicians will not operate. He is prolonging the suffering of this family and misleading the public along with the media.

It's in the CA legislature and where it should be addressed.

Shame on him!
 
Everybody deals with grief in different ways. I have lost two brothers, and both parents. I cannot judge this family on the way they grieve. My heart is breaking for them. Maybe this is the only way they know how to grieve. I pay taxes, and don't mind at all if my taxes go toward paying for this baby's care. Of course this is just MOPO, and I respect (truly) those that don't look at it the same. :(
 
No. Doctors pronounce people legally dead when they determine they are, indeed, legally dead. And they date and time the note in the chart. It is a legal document. After a decent time for the family to gather or mourn at the bedside, the hospital asks about funeral arrangements and calls the funeral home to retrieve the body. Not any more than 12 hours, I'd guess.

Do you think a doctor is going to tell the RN to just keep Mr. Smith's body in the room for a day or two until Christmas is over?

Of course not. I think that's absurd. That was my point. That not breaking bad medical news to someone on a Friday is not at all the same as telling someone a family member has died. Have you not been reading my posts? :) :seeya:
 
JMO, it makes no real difference. It is quite reasonable imo not to call patients with bad news on Friday because they're going to have a hard time getting anyone on the phone the next couple of days if they have any questions. But there is never a good time for a mother to hear that her child is dead/ is going to die/is going to be killed.

I know the family said it was more terrible because it was Christmas but it's January now and they're still not okay with it. They would never have said, OK, no holidays in sight, it's all right for you to kill her now as long as you do it quick, well before Valentine's day.

If they believe she's alive and the hospital is going to murder her by disconnecting the vent, the time of the year is not relevant. They're not going to agree at any time of year.

Can you imagine the position that puts the nursing staff in? Are they just supposed to pretend the child is sleeping and not mention anything about the medical diagnosis that has been rendered? That puts the nursing staff in a completely unethical position. The nursing administrative structure is not going to allow that.

CHO deals with neonatal and pediatric deaths of all kinds all the time. It's a fact of being a major tertiary referral center for a population of 10 million people. They have lots of staff on hand to assist with breaking bad news, to find counseling, to follow religious practices, etc. I have no doubt CHO is better prepared for the ethical, religious, and communication challenges of brain death than any other hospital in their region.
 
Of course not. I think that's absurd. That was my point. That not breaking bad medical news to someone on a Friday is not at all the same as telling someone a family member has died. Have you not been reading my posts? :) :seeya:

I have been reading your very insightful posts, thanks.

My response was actually to the post you were also responding to. I probably should have gone farther back and quoted that post, rather than yours. :truce:
 
JMO, it makes no real difference. It is quite reasonable imo not to call patients with bad news on Friday because they're going to have a hard time getting anyone on the phone the next couple of days if they have any questions (supposing they don't need any urgent treatment that can't wait until Monday). But there is never a good time for a mother to hear that her child is dead/ is going to die/is going to be killed.

I know the family said it was more terrible because it was Christmas but it's January now and they're still not okay with it. They would never have said, OK, no holidays in sight, it's all right for you to kill her now as long as you do it quick, well before Valentine's day.

If they believe she's alive and the hospital is going to murder her by disconnecting the vent, the time of the year is not relevant. They're not going to agree at any time of year.

True that. However it is emotionally worse at christmas. I have loved ones dealing with deaths at christmas and it destroys forever any holidays to come. Holidays become a time of grief and sorrow for the whole family, not a time of christmas magic and santa coming down the chimney to help the other kids and parents. You would want to look past to see what can they do to make it as easy as possible for the family in the future years too.

It just seems cho doesn't care really. They just want to litigate and make things difficult fior a child who imo shouldn't have died at all
 
Jahi was diagonsed as brain dead on December 12. That is weeks before Chrismas or New Year.
Hospital is only required to provide a reasonably short period of time for family of brain dead patient to come to grips with it.
Couple of days at the most, likely.
 
Exactly! He is taking full advantage of Jahi's mothers state of mind.

He know the laws. He is an attorney for goodness sake! He knows what legally can and cannot be done. Yet, he has accused the hospital of doing or not doing things that he knows they can't legally and ethically do. He is full aware that no other facility, let alone some outpatient facility can take her. He is full aware that physicians will not operate. He is prolonging the suffering of this family and misleading the public along with the media.

It's in the CA legislature and where it should be addressed.

And he has been denied over, and over, and over, and over again.

That's one reason why I'm quite sure this will not be over on Jan 7.
 
Not really, apparently she was brain dead on the 11th. Either turn it off then or allow the family past the holidays. I have no issue with them advising the family she is dead then but when they asked to hold off extubating her and turning off life support, for some reason they decided to wait until holiday time when kids are coming home from college, when the shopping goes on and many early christian dates occur.

It is saying to a family who doesn't believe she is dead, so sad, to bad, we are going to cut her off on christmas even and she SURE will be dead then right? all bright eyed and innocent but telling a horrible thing to a grieving mom

They waited longer than they should have because the mother was not handling it well. I agree, they made a big mistake in not taking her off the vent within hours or a day. But it's apparent to me that that decision was made for compassionate reasons, not out of malice. It seems that your post is suggesting that they waited until Christmas on purpose just to be extra mean. To the contrary, though, we all know that family's lawyer was involved by then. jmo
 
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