Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #4

[Zuri]

I cannot imagine what it is like for the nurses and support staff in the PICU. In my nursing career, I chose mainly to do adult critical care as I know my strengths do not lie in treating sick and dying children on a daily basis. I have the utmost respect for the nurses that do. There is just so much compartmentization you can do. This must be so demoralizing for them, and I would bet it has made their jobs even harder dealing with the other parents and patients as the circus continues. While I had admired NW's faith initially, I truly thought there would have been some acceptance of diagnosis long ago. This situation is not just affecting one family. It is affecting many and IMO, there is a degree of selfishness and blind refusal to accept what is the reality. If there are miracles to be had, I think it is going to take one for NW to accept her daughter is dead and not coming back. This needs to stop. JMV

 

[al66pine]

Just to be clear, the only reason I think the extension was a mistake was because it's now being used against the hospital and likely, because of that, they will not be so accomodating in the future. No good deed...and all that. jmo

BBM

Expanding on Karmady's post, by bringing over part of my post 527:

If this ct allows hosp to follow the CA statute and disconnect vent, I wonder how that will effect future behavior of--
-- patients,
-- parents & other family members,
-- other persons named by patient as HC surrogate,
-- GALs,
-- attys considering rep'ing pt or fam for brain death situations.

IIRC before TRO action was filed, CHO spokeswoman said there was "no policy' on brain-death situation and each is handled case by case.

IIRC someone posted link to a different hosp's policy stating that once brain death had bn determined, the vent
(and maybe other devices?) would be disconnected after a given period of time - 12, 24, or 36 hours.

I wonder if CHO spokeswoman's 'no policy' stmt was accurate.
If CHO actually had, say, a 12, 24, or 36 hr disconnect policy in place, I wonder if it was not disclosed to Jahi's fam,
in the hope that Jahi's mom would come to grips w her dau's brain-death as death.

Like Karmady said 'no good deed...'

Healing thoughts to all involved and exposed to this sad situation.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

This morning I looked at the FB page and the go me fund page. Any disparaging remarks have been removed. There are alot of people who are of tremendous faith that are supporting Jahi's mother. They believe in miracles and have quoted passages from the Bible. I admire their faith even when it flies in the face of reality. I admired Jahi's mother's faith that she believed in miracles, although there is not one to be had here sadly.

However. There has only been one side of the story told here, and people of faith seem to be basing many of their comments and support on half truths. Marches in front of the hospital, encouraging phone calls to administrators, fear mongering, disparaging comments directed at physicians and an institution that does so much good for so many, does not seem to have a place in faith. Or miracles. Or reality. JMV, JMO, etc.

It boggles my mind because I am very fact based. I get very frustrated but, I must come to terms with what I see on the internet no matter how frustrating it is to me and attempts to educate some are futile because they have their own beliefs and they most certainly have a right to them.

If the media or others misleads, then I do believe it is important that people are provided with the truth so that they can form there own educated opinion.

There are some that will purposely spread lies though, to further their own agenda.

 

[Herat]

Has anyone else thought about this? Once Jahi's mother takes custody of her daughter, there's no telling what type of "interventions" might be considered for the teen. Will her ongoing treatment be limited strictly to traditional medical means of caring for Jahi, or might other less conventional "healers" be brought in to observe an attempt to revive the youngster? I shudder to think about what might happen once Jahi is in the custody of her mother.

It is not for us to dictate what sorts of "treatment" or "healing" happens to Jahi when she is released to the family

One would hope she could be in some professional setting where there would be respect for her condition and privacy. I don't think of people praying or "healers" as being so bad, if the mother allows. It is her child and she will have the say in who is or isn't allowed to be with the child. I would be more concerned that someone might seek to publicize and exploit her condition and violate her privacy for their own purposes.

 

[Zuri]

In my googling, I have yet to see, read or hear from the millions of churches and millions of health professionals coming out in public support of what NW and her attorney are doing. Please correct me if I am wrong. All I am reading is varying news reports and opinions based on misinformation. Sometimes journalists should just stick to reporting facts instead of suppositions. JMO, JMV

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

I cannot imagine what it is like for the nurses and support staff in the PICU. In my nursing career, I chose mainly to do adult critical care as I know my strengths do not lie in treating sick and dying children on a daily basis. I have the utmost respect for the nurses that do. There is just so much compartmentization you can do. This must be so demoralizing for them, and I would bet it has made their jobs even harder dealing with the other parents and patients as the circus continues. While I had admired NW's faith initially, I truly thought there would have been some acceptance of diagnosis long ago. This situation is not just affecting one family. It is affecting many and IMO, there is a degree of selfishness and blind refusal to accept what is the reality. If there are miracles to be had, I think it is going to take one for NW to accept her daughter is dead and not coming back. This needs to stop. JMV

:tyou: Lovely, thoughtful post. My thoughts and prayers are with the hospital administrators, physicians, nurses, and support staff who have cared for Jahi and attended to the emotional needs of her family.

 

[Hope32]

I have heard it was just tonsil surgery that Jahi had. I have heard that it was also 3 other types of surgery/tissues to be removed... Can someone link to a post/news/article that more details than just "routine tonsil surgery".

 

[al66pine]

Has anyone else thought about this? Once Jahi's mother takes custody of her daughter, there's no telling what type of "interventions" might be considered for the teen. Will her ongoing treatment be limited strictly to traditional medical means of caring for Jahi, or might other less conventional "healers" be brought in to observe an attempt to revive the youngster? I shudder to think about what might happen once Jahi is in the custody of her mother.

Good question, BDE.

If a medically licensed person provides treatment to Jahi, say, at mom's apt/home, presumably, that person would be subject to ---
--st. bd. disciplinary procedures re license, i.e., letter of censure, suspension, termination, etc. AND
--crim prosecution re abuse of corpse.

If a non-medically licensed person provides treatment to Jahi, say, at mom's apt/home, presumably, that person would be subject to ---
--crim prosecution re abuse of corpse (if there is physical contact?) or
--wild tangent, crim pros for practice of medicine without a license? Can a person be prosecuted for that when practiced on a body declared dead and for which a D/Cert has been issued?

JM2cts and I may be wrong. :seeya:

 

[Donjeta]

I have heard it was just tonsil surgery that Jahi had. I have heard that it was also 3 other types of surgery/tissues to be removed... Can someone link to a post/news/article that more details than just "routine tonsil surgery".

It was an uvulopalatopharyngoplasty, adenotonsillectomy and bilateral submucous resection of inferior turbinates. (Source: the hospital response to Dolan's court filing).

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

It is not for us to dictate what sorts of "treatment" or "healing" happens to Jahi when she is released to the family

One would hope she could be in some professional setting where there would be respect for her condition and privacy. I don't think of people praying or "healers" as being so bad, if the mother allows. It is her child and she will have the say in who is or isn't allowed to be with the child. I would be more concerned that someone might seek to publicize and exploit her condition and violate her privacy for their own purposes.

This is what worries me and the reason for my question.

 

[Donjeta]

Has anyone else thought about this? Once Jahi's mother takes custody of her daughter, there's no telling what type of "interventions" might be considered for the teen. Will her ongoing treatment be limited strictly to traditional medical means of caring for Jahi, or might other less conventional "healers" be brought in to observe and attempt to revive the youngster? I shudder to think about what might happen once Jahi is in the custody of her mother.

I have no problem with people praying for free, but hopefully no one proposes a really expensive cure that will work to cure brain death, I swear, I cured Ariel Sharon with it only the Israeli keep that a secret for political reasons.

 

[Karmady]

I have heard it was just tonsil surgery that Jahi had. I have heard that it was also 3 other types of surgery/tissues to be removed... Can someone link to a post/news/article that more details than just "routine tonsil surgery".

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/loca...ep-Jahi-McMath-on-Life-Support-236808851.html

from the link

Doug Straus said this case is not about a “routine” tonsillectomy. He said the surgery was complicated from the beginning, as three procedures were being done simultaneously. The three surgeries, according to court documents, were: an adenotonsillectomy; a uvulopalatopharyngloplasty, or UPPP, which is tissue removal in the throat; and submucous resection of bilateral inferior turbinates, which is nasal obstruction. The family has previously said the surgery was to help fix Jahi's sleep apnea.

 

[iluvmua]

Just out of curiosity, have there been any articles concerning how other families currently in CHO PICU with their own children are dealing with this circus? It has to be horrible for them and I hope that the McMath family has shown some respect.

They have not shown any respect for Jahi so I highly doubt the've shown any respect for other families at the hospital.

JMO

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

I have no problem with people praying for free, but hopefully no one proposes a really expensive cure that will work to cure brain death, I swear, I cured Ariel Sharon with it only the Israeli keep that a secret for political reasons.

:lol: Speaking of "secrets", I hadn't realized that Ariel Sharon was still alive until reports surfaced last week of his worsening condition. I thought that he might have passed away without anyone acknowledging it. :angel:

 

[Karmady]

I am a person of great faith and belief I also know that we haven't heard of a person rising up from the hospital bed after being confirmed brain dead...my God can work like that but doesn't. If I am wrong please correct me...I don't watch the news much and Lazarus happened a long time ago.

Hi Sincerely. It occurs to me that my post may have been misunderstood. I wasn't meaning faith without grace from God in the form of a miracle. I meant grace in the minds and hearts of the faithful.

I probably didn't use the word grace correctly from a devoutly religious perspective since it's been a long time since my formal religious training ended. But that's what I meant.

jmo

 

[jjenny]

Just to be clear, the only reason I think the extension was a mistake was because it's now being used against the hospital and likely, because of that, they will not be so accomodating in the future. No good deed...and all that. jmo

In that sense, I agree. I think other hospitals around the country are taking notice. Although I still don't think that five days hospital initially gave is all that lenghty of an extension.

 

[Zuri]

No the hospitals job is not done, they have a duty of care to the family members they interacted with. A duty to get them the best help, the most caring and empathetic doctors to help them deal.

THey keep people on ventilators for organ removal. That mean they are dead or alive? they are doing surgery on the dead body. Which i fully agree with but i can see why the mom feels putting in a feeding tube is not much different morally.

It doesn't MATTER what the family is saying/doing in terms of the hospitals responsibility to treat patien AND families with care and empathy. So they got sweathshirts with Jahi's pic on them or called out the hospital. It is CLEAR imo that there is some mental illness going on that needs treatment and in fact the hospital should be moving heaven and earth to get the mom treatment, if not from them then from someone they can trust. NOT putting their backs up because a mom can understandably not believe her baby is dead. imop

In fact the hospitals current reaction to the family and refusing to call Jahi by name etc. would ensure that I picked up a lawyer on my way to the hospital for any care of a family member. If they are willing to lose all empathy for family in this case, what will they do with their duty of care ijn another case. I would want an attorney at bedside documenting everything with an eye to a lawsuit if they step away from the boundaries of good care.

IMO, denial does not constitute being mentally ill. The hospital has offered pastoral care, grief counseling, and every other service they have in place. There is some responsibility incumbant on the mother to educate herself about Jahi's medical diagnosis and to seek mental health counseling on her own.

What made me incredibly sad in this post, was the feeling that one would " want an attorney at the bedside documenting everything with an eye to a lawsuit if they step away from the boundaries of good care". I would like to think that is incredibly unnecessary as most nurses and doctors are committed to doing what is best for their patients. As medical documentation already occurs as though an attorney would read it throughout this country in healthcare settings, having the equivalent of "Big Brother" standing over a provider is an incredibly sad thought. JMO, JMV

 

[Herding Cats]

Exactly, faith without grace is antithetical to me.

God doesn't promise bad things won't happen to good people. He promises He will walk with us when they do.

God keeps His promises.

Best-
Herding Cats

 

[BeginnersLuck]

Has anyone else thought about this? Once Jahi's mother takes custody of her daughter, there's no telling what type of "interventions" might be considered for the teen. Will her ongoing treatment be limited strictly to traditional medical means of caring for Jahi, or might other less conventional "healers" be brought in to observe an attempt to revive the youngster? I shudder to think about what might happen once Jahi is in the custody of her mother.

I'm still not sure that it will get to this point, but for speculative purposes and other potential future situations such as this, I would like to comment on it.

One thing that has weighed on my mind is the neuroscientist, with the online degree, who has been terminated from many different jobs due to his radical treatment. This treatment, costing in the hundreds of thousands.

I haven't read of him doing any of these treatments on patients that are brain dead on ventilators. There are many articles out there that address his questionable tactics and concern for him taking advantage of those that are vulnerable and desperate for hope. Here is one article about him. There are many more addressing his treatment of those that are in comas or vegetative states.

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2012/01/meadowlands_hospital_neuroscie.html

Here is a article where he addresses Jahi.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...hope-brain-dead-jahi-mcmath-article-1.1562427

IMO, some have their own agenda.....

Some may say that since Jahi is already deceased, but her heart is still beating due to support, there is no harm in experimental procedures being performed on her, just as bodies are donated to science for research.

I think this would open up a whole different can of worms though, legally and ethically as far as Jahi is concerned. I don't know if this type of situation has even been addressed.

Personally, I find the thought of what experimentalists, may do to her, unethical and violating of her dignity and respect.

 

[Donjeta]

IMO, denial does not constitute being mentally ill. The hospital has offered pastoral care, grief counseling, and every other service they have in place. There is some responsibility incumbant on the mother to educate herself about Jahi's medical diagnosis and to seek mental health counseling on her own.

What made me incredibly sad in this post, was the feeling that one would " want an attorney at the bedside documenting everything with an eye to a lawsuit if they step away from the boundaries of good care". I would like to think that is incredibly unnecessary as most nurses and doctors are committed to doing what is best for their patients. As medical documentation already occurs as though an attorney would read it throughout this country in healthcare settings, having the equivalent of "Big Brother" standing over a provider is an incredibly sad thought. JMO, JMV

I think if people are concerned about the standard of care they might be better off getting a second opinion than getting an attorney. Attorneys aren't usually qualified to say if the medical decisions were adequate, and instead of better diagnoses and better treatment you might just get more unnecessary tests and more tense interaction with nervous doctors who are thinking about covering their backs instead of your disease.