Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #4

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It is really sad and frustrating for me to read so many global criticisms of this world class facility characterizing the entire facility and staff as heartless and cruel. “The hospital” is not just a cold, bricks and mortar entity—but a vibrant place, filled with many, many compassionate and caring individuals. Rarely is an entire department or facility “bad” or “incompetent” or “heartless”.

I’d like to point out something to demonstrate how compassionate “the hospital” was to this family, even BEFORE Jahi was unfortunately diagnosed as brain dead. “The hospital” has gone above and beyond for this family, IMO, at pretty much every stage of Jahi’s treatment. At the time when Mrs. Winkfield was witnessing Jahi bleed, she apparently experienced a vaso vagal reaction so severe that she herself needed treatment. She “passed out”. If you think about that for a moment, in addition to the crisis that was occurring with Jahi, the ICU staff now had an additional crisis to attend to—the patient’s mother unconscious, and probably on the floor. That required an additional group of caregivers to assess Mrs. Winkfield urgently, call for assistance, and have her transported to presumably the hospital ER for more assessment and treatment. And that is EXACTLY what appears to have happened—Mrs. Winkfield received treatment AS A PATIENT. Presumably she is satisfied with the care she herself received from the staff, both in the ICU and ER. (Which is another reason I have a hard time interpreting the family statements that they called and called for help, and no one came promptly—in an ICU described as an open bay facility—no walls.)

There is a law called EMTALA (Emergency Treatment and Active Labor Act) that compels hospitals to assess and treat emergencies and patients in active labor, and not divert them, for example, to other county facilities by doing a “wallet biopsy” to see what kind of insurance the patient has.

http://www.cms.gov/Regulations-and-Guidance/Legislation/EMTALA/index.html

Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

CHO was legally obligated to emergently assess and treat Mrs. Winkfield when she passed out. However, once the situation was stable, Children’s would have been completely within their rights to transfer Mrs. Winkfield to an ADULT facility ER, even if she had not agreed with the plan. Children’s Hospital treats pediatric patients. Despite this, the staff recognized that their patient, Mrs. Winkfield, and their other patient, Jahi McMath, were both experiencing a terrible combined family crisis. They apparently kept Mrs. Winkfield as a patient for a number of hours, either in their ER, or somewhere else, most likely because no one wanted to separate a terrified mother from her child, who was in a terrible crisis in the PICU. They bent, and might even be characterized as “broke” the rules to keep this family, and mother and child, together during their crises. That is not just following the law, but demonstrating compassion at a high level, IMO.

I want to contrast this to what happens today in many small hospitals. When a newborn has difficulties that require transfer to a bigger NICU, in the past, we always sent the moms with the babies in the ambulance or life flight. The moms were inpatients, whether they gave birth by vaginal delivery, or C-section. The rationale was compassion—not separating newborns from their mothers during a crisis, and the moms themselves were still recovering from the birth, and needed care and support. For the past several years (maybe as many as 10 years, I can’t recall), we have been unable to do this in small facilities. The babies are transported alone with the NICU team, and the moms have to be discharged so they can go separately, if they are stable enough for discharge. Insurance will not pay simply to keep moms and babies together—there has to be a medical reason for the MOM to be transferred as an inpatient with the newborn.

So I really question the across-the-board criticisms of this world class facility being crass, heartless, and disparaging toward this family. No one wanted this situation to end happily more than “the hospital”, except Jahi’s family.
 
Here is a article where he addresses Jahi.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...hope-brain-dead-jahi-mcmath-article-1.1562427

IMO, some have their own agenda.....

Some may say that since Jahi is already deceased, but her heart is still beating due to support, there is no harm in experimental procedures being performed on her, just as bodies are donated to science for research.

I think this would open up a whole different can of worms though, legally and ethically as far as Jahi is concerned. I don't know if this type of situation has even been addressed.

Personally, I find the thought of what experimentalists, may do to her, unethical and violating of her dignity and respect.

I believe this sort of unethical stuff is why CHO wanted to assure Jahi would go to a medical facility with a responsible medical director and held out for so long for this.

However, we must assume it was the mother's wish, in concert with her attorney, that she be allowed to assume all care for the child. The hospital did not request the mother do this, she requested it.

I feel strongly that CHO wanted to allow Jahi a decent cardiac death in a safe place, in order never to allow Jahi into the hands of an unscrupulous egomaniac like that guy or others who would take advantage of the mother's grieving process.
 
:lol: Speaking of "secrets", I hadn't realized that Ariel Sharon was still alive until reports surfaced last week of his worsening condition. I thought that he might have passed away without anyone acknowledging it. :angel:

I have a lingering thought in the back of mind that this might happen with Jiha. What if she is taken from the hospital and we never hear where she is or what has happened to her? Just wondering.;
 
:lol: Speaking of "secrets", I hadn't realized that Ariel Sharon was still alive until reports surfaced last week of his worsening condition. I thought that he might have passed away without anyone acknowledging it. :angel:

I didn't realize he hadn't died either until I googled his Wikipedia page. I could have sworn that I read he died of a stroke ages ago. *oops*
 
I didn't realize he hadn't died either until I googled his Wikipedia page. I could have sworn that I read he died of a stroke ages ago. *oops*

He didn't die, he is in PVS. Apparently subjected to "world class" treatments all this time, which Jahi's lawyer wants to carry out on Jahi. Now he is reportedly near death.
 
I have a lingering thought in the back of mind that this might happen with Jiha. What if she is taken from the hospital and we never hear where she is or what has happened to her? Just wondering.;

Don't worry about that.

There will be some sort of malpractice or wrongful death lawsuit filed in the next several years. We'll hear all about what happened to her.
 
I want to address the ideas mentioned up thread, of doing further tests on Jahi to try and convince her mother that she is deceased.

The hospitals policy, as well as other hospital policies across the country, is to give the family reasonable time to gather prior to removing the ventilator from those that have been declared brain dead. Unlike in a coma or vegetative state, it is not the families choice as to whether the ventilator is removed from those that are declared brain dead. In other words, they don't ask the family if they can remove the ventilator, it is policy that they automatically do so after a few days.

The hospital extended this time from the normal protocol for the McMaths. Then the courts extended it further. As noted in court documents, the hospital has provided counseling and pastoral care for the entire family during this entire time.

The hospitals primary responsibility is to the patient, which includes doing what is ethically and legally appropriate. They have a responsibility to treat Jahi with dignity and respect. As far as family of the deceased are concerned, the hospital provides grief counseling, which they have done throughout this time. The family are NOT patients of the hospital unless they are admitted.

The hospital should not entertain those that are mentally unstable by continuing to perform tests, procedure, etc., on the deceased, because a mentally unstable family member is in denial. One of the top experts in the country has been brought in to confirm Jahi's status.

As a society we should never let those that are unstable dictate the rules. We get them help to understand reality. This is exactly why this case is where it is now. Imagine, if all those in need of mental health treatment were allowed to turn upside down hospital procedures and tie up the courts at all levels with emergency filings because they are able to find an attorney to do so. Even when there are already established laws in place. Imagine the absolute chaos that would ensue all over the country and how this would affect the treatment and daily care of other patients and how it would affect others rights to their time in court.

This has been allowed to go way to far and has to stop.

Jahi's mother is now free to take Jahi from the hospital. Through the courts, the hospital is now free of any liability that may arise once the transfer in Jahi's room begins to take place.

Now, it is up to Jahi's mother and her attorney to move Jahi elsewhere, otherwise the hospital will remove the ventilator on Tuesday, unless the attorney is successful in getting another extension.

Excellent post, worth repeating.
 
I have a lingering thought in the back of mind that this might happen with Jiha. What if she is taken from the hospital and we never hear where she is or what has happened to her? Just wondering.;

I suppose the family does not owe us, the public, any information about her whereabouts or her condition but the coroner would not like her to just vanish.

After the case became so public and the family committed publicly to the expectation of miracle and made so many statements to indicate that declaring her case hopeless and disconnecting the vent would be akin to murder, I imagine they would be in an extremely difficult position if Jahi happened to be one of those brain-dead people who can linger on for a very long time. Money would eventually run out and after a long time with no change in her condition except for the worse the family might realize that no miracles were planned and start thinking that perhaps pulling the plug would be the kindest thing to do for everybody's sake. But it would be incredibly difficult to state that publicly, after everything that they've been through.
 
Hi Sincerely. It occurs to me that my post may have been misunderstood. I wasn't meaning faith without grace from God in the form of a miracle. I meant grace in the minds and hearts of the faithful.

I probably didn't use the word grace correctly from a devoutly religious perspective since it's been a long time since my formal religious training ended. But that's what I meant.

jmo

I may have quoted off of yours but I was referring to the thought that maybe all believers thought along those same lines that miracles do happen and Jahi may wake up...so no worries :)
 
I feel it's time again to thank all of the professionals that have weighed in on this thread. I very much appreciate what I have learned from your expertise. I would also like to thank all those that have shared their personal experiences and opinions, which are very valuable to this discussion. Also, those that have taken their time and effort to search for and provide links to ongoing events and reference to medical, legal and other matters that apply here.

It's my opinion we are all here because we share a interest in this case, no matter if that interest differs between each poster.

It is wonderful, to have a place to discuss this in it's entirety. Thanks to WS's for providing this board to do so. I have learned so much since I have become a member here and I am a different person today partly, because of what I have learned. This has helped me to take my knowledge and share it within my own community.
 
Re other poss treatments, this article pub'ed today,
Jahi has already had 'a few weeks' to respond.
Dr. Phil Defina, CEO of International Brain Research Foundation, says, "you want to err on the side of caution and not take away a life. You want to give her a few weeks and see if she responds." Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...d-jahi-mcmath-article-1.1562427#ixzz2pSa0P6xs

Delfina is the guy with the on-line degree. He is not an MD. He is not qualified to examine her, nor is he qualified to enter CHO, or touch Jahi.

He is the opportunist trying to sell a $150,000 treatment.
 
JMO, any doctors who go around telling the families of brain-dead people that they may still recover, without even examining the patient for themselves, should be the object of some kind of a professional investigation. I'm sure they're trying to sell the family something expensive (or if not Jahi's family, some other desperate families).
MOO.
 
Re other poss treatments, this article pub'ed today,
Jahi has already had 'a few weeks' to respond.
Dr. Phil Defina, CEO of International Brain Research Foundation, says, "you want to err on the side of caution and not take away a life. You want to give her a few weeks and see if she responds." Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...d-jahi-mcmath-article-1.1562427#ixzz2pSa0P6xs

When there is no blood flow to the brain, as in brain death, there is simply no possibility of any recovery.

This doctor is not respected within the medical or scientific communities. He has not chosen to do scientific, ethical, or peer reviewed studies and research. IMO, that makes him nothing more than a charlatan, preying on the vulnerable.

He "created" the International Brain Research Foundation, because his ideas have been rejected by all mainstream scientific and medical entities.
 
While we await further information on Jahi's case, I hope that everyone here has a medical directive that you want your family members to abide by if it becomes necessary due to your being mentally/physically incapable of making such decisions. DH and I did this several years ago when we updated our Last Will(s) and Testament(s), but you do not need an attorney to complete these forms. Most are available online or at a hospital. A preferred medical facility where you would likely seek treatment for a catastrophic medical condition can keep them on file, as well. Each state probably has its own version, but here is the Michigan form for your perusal.

http://ww4.mgh.org/admitting/Shared Documents/MichiganAD.pdf
 
When there is no blood flow to the brain, as in brain death, there is simply no possibility of any recovery.

This doctor is not respected within the medical or scientific communities. He has not chosen to do scientific, ethical, or peer reviewed studies and research. IMO, that makes him nothing more than a charlatan, preying on the vulnerable.

He "created" the International Brain Research Foundation, because his ideas have been rejected by all mainstream scientific and medical entities.

His doctorate is an on-line degree in clinical psychology. He's like Dr. Phil, except that Dr. Phil actually attended a college for his degree, I believe.

Dr. Phil should not be examining Jahi or making claims about her brain function or lack of it and neither should this guy.

A clinical psychologist is not an MD.
 
His doctorate is an on-line degree in clinical psychology. He's like Dr. Phil, except that Dr. Phil actually attended a college for his degree, I believe.

Dr. Phil should not be examining Jahi or making claims about her brain function or lack of it and neither should this guy.

A clinical psychologist is not an MD.

Funny you should mention Dr. Phil. DH and I were wondering last night if or when Dr. Phil would invite Jahi's family to be on his show. :angel:
 
I am sorry if my post concerning DeFina caused confusion. I was simply trying to point out what families and patients that are desperate and vulnerable may be subjected to and how there are many out there, that are lying in wait to take advantage of these situations.

The agenda of those that want to prey on the vulnerable, is financial. Their objective is to obtain funding to do so, whether it would be through government grant, charity or getting these procedures, for which they have not compiled scientific data or done studies, approved to be paid for through medical insurance. Their credentials are questionable as well as their treatment plans that they implement or want to implement on others that could cause great harm. There is a reason he has been fired or ties have been broken with him by many other individuals and organizations.
 
I want to address the ideas mentioned up thread, of doing further tests on Jahi to try and convince her mother that she is deceased.

The hospitals policy, as well as other hospital policies across the country, is to give the family reasonable time to gather prior to removing the ventilator from those that have been declared brain dead. Unlike in a coma or vegetative state, it is not the families choice as to whether the ventilator is removed from those that are declared brain dead. In other words, they don't ask the family if they can remove the ventilator, it is policy that they automatically do so after a few days.

The hospital extended this time from the normal protocol for the McMaths. Then the courts extended it further. As noted in court documents, the hospital has provided counseling and pastoral care for the entire family during this entire time.

The hospitals primary responsibility is to the patient, which includes doing what is ethically and legally appropriate. They have a responsibility to treat Jahi with dignity and respect. As far as family of the deceased are concerned, the hospital provides grief counseling, which they have done throughout this time. The family are NOT patients of the hospital unless they are admitted.

The hospital should not entertain those that are mentally unstable by continuing to perform tests, procedure, etc., on the deceased, because a mentally unstable family member is in denial. One of the top experts in the country has been brought in to confirm Jahi's status.

As a society we should never let those that are unstable dictate the rules. We get them help to understand reality. This is exactly why this case is where it is now. Imagine, if all those in need of mental health treatment were allowed to turn upside down hospital procedures and tie up the courts at all levels with emergency filings because they are able to find an attorney to do so. Even when there are already established laws in place. Imagine the absolute chaos that would ensue all over the country and how this would affect the treatment and daily care of other patients and how it would affect others rights to their time in court.

This has been allowed to go way to far and has to stop.

Jahi's mother is now free to take Jahi from the hospital. Through the courts, the hospital is now free of any liability that may arise once the transfer in Jahi's room begins to take place.

Now, it is up to Jahi's mother and her attorney to move Jahi elsewhere, otherwise the hospital will remove the ventilator on Tuesday, unless the attorney is successful in getting another extension.


I don't even want to think about all the theatrics if CHO has to turn off the ventilator. I am confident CHO wants her to be moved by then.
 
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