Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #4

[Elley Mae]

Three doctors have declared the girl brain dead based on exams and tests showing no blood flow or electrical activity in either her cerebrum or the brain stem that controls breathing.
Multiple outside doctors and bioethicists observing the case have confirmed that a patient in that condition meets the legal criteria for death and has no chance of recovering.

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/national_world&id=9381705

 

[BeginnersLuck]

http://www.ktvu.com/news/news/local/agreement-reached-how-move-jahi-hospital/nccK5/

According to Christopher Dolan, the family attorney for Jahi McMath, the process to move Jahi will involve several steps. He said there must be communication between Children’s Hospital and the receiving facility, the family must give the receiving facility paperwork of Jahi’s health care status and she must be transported in an ambulance that can switch her to a portable ventilator.

I find the above statement misleading. It is my understanding that a medical transport team is able to come in and remove Jahi. Once that transport team begins the process of removal of Jahi in the hospital room, CHO is not liable for what happens. It is my understanding that the hospital does not have to approve where Jahi is transported to etc. It is Jahi's mothers responsibility. This is what I interpreted as being layed out in court yesterday. Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

 

[popsicle]

Nick Smith ‏@nicksmithnews 5m
#NEW Family of #JahiMcMath, "we would like to thank everyone at home that has supported, prayed and believe in what we are doing."

 

[Donjeta]

Nailah Winkfield, the girl’s mother, said she was hopeful that Friday’s agreement would facilitate her daughter’s move.

“I believe in God, and I believe that if he wanted her dead, he would have taken her already,” Ms. Winkfield, a Baptist, said by phone. “Her heart is beating, her blood is flowing. She moves when I go near her and talk to her. That’s not a dead person.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/04/us/a-brain-is-dead-a-heart-beats-on.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0

Under the agreement reached Friday, the hospital will release the girl to the Alameda County coroner, a move that will officially classify the girl as dead, before the family can transfer Jahi elsewhere.

“It is hard for a mother to receive a death certificate for a child who has a heart beating,” Mr. Dolan said. “It’s an awkward situation.”

The agreement does not require the hospital to perform the procedures that will help the girl’s heart to keep beating during the transfer, or to allow an outside doctor to carry them out on hospital premises, as Mr. Dolan had requested.

“This is an important medical and legal victory for our hospital and all medical facilities, that they can’t be forced to perform surgery,” said Sam Singer, a spokesman for Children’s Hospital.

Lt. Riddic Bowers of the Alameda County Coroner’s Bureau said that once the bureau issued a death certificate and a release form, a deceased person’s relatives were free to dispose of the body according to their wishes.

 

[Herat]

http://www.ktvu.com/news/news/local/agreement-reached-how-move-jahi-hospital/nccK5/



I find the above statement misleading. It is my understanding that a medical transport team is able to come in and remove Jahi. Once that transport team begins the process of removal of Jahi in the hospital room, CHO is not liable for what happens. It is my understanding that the hospital does not have to approve where Jahi is transported to etc. It is Jahi's mothers responsibility. This is what I interpreted as being layed out in court yesterday. Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

I agree with you completely.

That statement does not concur with the quote attributed to Dolan by KTVN on Friday, Jan 3:

{“The hospital will give Jahi to the coroner,” Dolan said. "The coroner will then, if we fill out certain paperwork, give Jahi to us. Then we are free to transport Jahi.”

The family must assume all responsibility for Jahi once they take her out of Children’s Hospital}

( put brackets around the passage I quoted from KTVN)

 

[momrids6]

New update: for newbies, we cannot discuss:

http://sprocket-trials.blogspot.com/...is-legacy.html

 

[wendiesan]

It doesn't have an effect on the right but mentally ill people which i believe mom is with her denial and grief, situationally at least, should have care offered in any way possible to get them to accept it. They aren't going to arrange it themselves. imo

The mom has been offered pastoral care and counselling courtesy of CHO since day one of this case. The mom has been receiving care and counselling from her church. The mom has been receiving advice and counselling from the Terri Schiavo Life and Hope Foundation. The mom has been receiving moral support from the many contributors to her fund as she's raised money to transport Jahi to a facility or to a home. The mom's family are supporting her. The mom is getting support from Dr. Byrne.

The mom and her brother expect to be able to "pray this girl back to perfect health". (http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/loca...Brain-Dead-After-Tonsillectomy-236385211.html) OS put it pretty bluntly when he said, "Their medicine didn't work so it's time to make God work." Jahi's family have been making very good use of their personal injury lawyer in getting the hospital to absorb the costs of Jahi's post-mortem care for weeks. They seem intent on taking even longer to finalize a plan that has, in essence, been on the table since Jahi was diagnosed as brain dead. Perhaps this is because, as OS has said, "We're not on doctors' time, we're on God's time." The mom has repeatedly said she's felt pushed, she's felt rushed, she needs more time. Where most people get a few hours or days to accept painful news and make difficult decisions, she's had weeks. She's been trying to gain time in which a miracle may occur, IMO.

CHO cannot compel NW to accept their help or help from any other source which they might offer. IMO, NW will not accept the fact that her daughter is dead unless she hears it from a very respected religious authority, or, maybe, from her own mother or father. Even then, IMO, she will reject anything CHO may offer except for money in a settlement.

If a patient rejects a course of treatment, disagrees with your diagnosis, and goes to another practitioner for alternative care, she is no longer your patient. IMO, NW has rejected CHO's treatment, disagreed with their diagnosis and gone elsewhere. She is not CHO's patient by her own choosing and CHO cannot be accused of abandoning someone who might have once been considered by some to be one of their patients.

 

[al66pine]

If the court approves taking Jahi home they must understand she will need some type of care. If it is a crime to provide care to Jahi then caregivers at CHO would be guilty also.

BBM, above from post 223.

Respectfully disagreeing.

Since ~12/12, CHO personnel (meaning CHO the corp, and Does #1-99, hosp. med staff, admin, etc.) wanted to disconnect the vent, when second dr gave opn as to brain death.
~12/12 to ~12/20, Jahi's fam persuaded CHO to cont vent & care.
~12/20 fam took legal action in COURT- app for TRO to FORCE CHO to cont. vent & care, etc.
Since ~12/20 TRO, CHO personnel have been subject to ct order FORCING them to cont. vent & care.

As I understand it, if CHO personnel did not cont vent per ct order, they would be subject to jail for contempt for disobeying court order.

I don't see how CHO personnel would be crim'ly prosecuted for, much less found guilty,
in connection w their actions complying w ct order.

Ditto proceedings the various st. licensing bds (dr, nurses, resp. tech's, etc) would consider,
when the licensees were ct ordered to cont. vent & care.

Any Legal-Eagles w thoughts on this, agree or disagree?
Or any of our med-posters here w. experience re ct orders re patient care?

JM2cts and I may be wrong. :seeya:

 

[Elley Mae]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/04/us/a-brain-is-dead-a-heart-beats-on.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0

Donjeta thanks for the link.

snipped

Under the agreement reached Friday, the hospital will release the girl to the Alameda County coroner, a move that will officially classify the girl as dead, before the family can transfer Jahi elsewhere.

bbm, if this is the case does that mean she goes to the morgue and is then released?

 

[otto]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/04/us/a-brain-is-dead-a-heart-beats-on.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0

"Under the agreement reached Friday, the hospital will release the girl to the Alameda County coroner, a move that will officially classify the girl as dead, before the family can transfer Jahi elsewhere.

“It is hard for a mother to receive a death certificate for a child who has a heart beating,” Mr. Dolan said. “It’s an awkward situation.”

The agreement does not require the hospital to perform the procedures that will help the girl’s heart to keep beating during the transfer, or to allow an outside doctor to carry them out on hospital premises, as Mr. Dolan had requested.

“This is an important medical and legal victory for our hospital and all medical facilities, that they can’t be forced to perform surgery,” said Sam Singer, a spokesman for Children’s Hospital.

Lt. Riddic Bowers of the Alameda County Coroner’s Bureau said that once the bureau issued a death certificate and a release form, a deceased person’s relatives were free to dispose of the body according to their wishes."

It sounds like things are finally going in the right direction. A death certificate will be completed, and the hospital can simply unplug all of their equipment and move the body to the exit where transportation is waiting. From reading the Japan case study of brain dead patients (linked earlier), without a ventilator, everything will be over in less than 20 minutes. Also, there doesn't seem to be any ruling about how the hospital has to move the deceased to the waiting transportation. If the hospital unplugs all the equipment in ICU, isn't it possible that by the time the body arrives for transport there will be no heartbeat? This actually seems like a back door move to disconnect the ventilator.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

Donjeta thanks for the link.

snipped

Under the agreement reached Friday, the hospital will release the girl to the Alameda County coroner, a move that will officially classify the girl as dead, before the family can transfer Jahi elsewhere.

bbm, if this is the case does that mean she goes to the morgue and is then released?

No, not IMO. I think it will be just a matter of a piece of paper.

 

[wendiesan]

:greetings:

:welcome6:

:sigh: Sadly, I do believe this is the case. Jahi hasn't been considered in any of this mess. A sad, sad shame. IMO

Bonfire of the Vanities. The one who should be at the centre slowly fades from view. (JMO)

 

[scubadvr99]

Dr. Gupta on CNN is doing a talk on the case. Please let me know if this type post is inappropriate. TIA

 

[BeginnersLuck]

It sounds like things are finally going in the right direction. A death certificate will be completed, and the hospital can simply unplug all of their equipment and move the body to the exit where transportation is waiting. From reading the Japan case study of brain dead patients (linked earlier), without a ventilator, everything will be over in less than 20 minutes. Also, there doesn't seem to be any ruling about how the hospital has to move the deceased to the waiting transportation. If the hospital unplugs all the equipment in ICU, isn't it possible that by the time the body arrives for transport there will be no heartbeat? This actually seems like a back door move to disconnect the ventilator.

Otto, the transport team has to come to her bedside to do this. Once the transport team starts the process CHO is not liable for anything that may go wrong. CHO has said that they can use what is necessary to get her to the transport vehicle.

eta: I should have said CHO has said they could use some or certain things that are necessary to get her to the vehicle.

 

[wondering?]

Poor child, this is such a tough case, no parent wants to see their child in the grave but this child has been declared brain dead by several drs. To keep her breathing through artificial means is so unkind to her. Anyone who has ever gone through this with someone they love, knows the relief comes when the person is safely in Heaven. To have to care for this girl, in every one of Activities of Daily Living, is not what this child would want.

Please let her go to her Savior, and rejoice in her life that she had. Give her organs, undamaged ones to other children so that some will live through her.

God Bless this family in their grief.

 

[al66pine]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/04/us/a-brain-is-dead-a-heart-beats-on.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0

"It is hard for a mother to receive a death certificate for a child who has a heart beating,” Mr. Dolan said. “It’s an awkward situation.”

No, Mr. Dolan, it's a unbelievable situation, unbelievable that mom will not recognize secular, scientific fact --- brain dead is dead.

She can believe whatever religious dogma and doctrine she wishes.
But while living here on earth, she cannot dictate actions of all others to conform to her beliefs.


Mom also made a statement to the effect (maybe different article), that if God wanted Jahi dead, she would be dead by now.

I hesitate to conjecture about religion, but some would say, if God were inclined to perform a miracle and spark life into Jahi, resurrecting her from the dead, He could have done so by now.

JM2cts and I may be wrong. :seeya:

Again, healing thoughts to all involved and affected.

 

[Destiny617]

For some reason I think this "wait time" will be quieter.

Hope this is ok to post! Just a point of interest, if any of you were curious: The hospital is indeed quiet. I drove by today and there are no crowds and no barricades. I hope that this wait time will continue remain quiet.

(If the moderators need to verify that I live near the hospital, I'm not sure how to do that...)

 

[Donjeta]

Hope this is ok to post! Just a point of interest, if any of you were curious: The hospital is indeed quiet. I drove by today and there are no crowds and no barricades. I hope that this wait time will continue remain quiet.

(If the moderators need to verify that I live near the hospital, I'm not sure how to do that...)

IIRC the mods have said that there is no need to be verified in order to post general local knowledge. Only if you're claiming that you have inside information in a specific case or if you want to post as a professional expert in some subject.

 

[Donjeta]

"It is hard for a mother to receive a death certificate for a child who has a heart beating,” Mr. Dolan said. “It’s an awkward situation.”

No, Mr. Dolan, it's a unbelievable situation, unbelievable that mom will not recognize secular, scientific fact --- brain dead is dead.

She can believe whatever religious dogma and doctrine she wishes.
But while living here on earth, she cannot dictate actions of all others to conform to her beliefs.


Mom also made a statement to the effect (maybe different article), that if God wanted Jahi dead, she would be dead by now.

I hesitate to conjecture about religion, but some would say, if God were inclined to perform a miracle and spark life into Jahi, resurrecting her from the dead, He could have done so by now.

JM2cts and I may be wrong. :seeya:

Again, healing thoughts to all involved and affected.

I think the problem is that we have no way of knowing which of our dead are going to be resurrected by divine intervention. It happens very rarely so God would not expect hospitals to keep pumping air into all of our dear departed, just in case, would He?

 

[Herat]

From the KTVN site:

"He [Dolan]said there must be communication between Children’s Hospital and the receiving facility, the family must give the receiving facility paperwork of Jahi’s health care status and she must be transported in an ambulance that can switch her to a portable ventilator

Note that he didn't use the term air ambulance?