Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #4

[ladonna]

New update: for newbies, we cannot discuss:

http://sprocket-trials.blogspot.com/...is-legacy.html

Link doesn't work...the response I get is this:

Sorry, the page you were looking for in this blog does not exist.

 

[Herat]

I don't know if this has been addressed but if Jani's heart stops beating in another state, facility or in the family home will an autopsy be required? Or will her family be able to refuse it?

The county in which she dies will have jurisdiction over the autopsy. Because of the question of the events of her decompensation, an autopsy will undoubtedly be done by the coroner. A "coroner's case" does not need the family consent. It is given by the sheriff or county coroner as a matter of law. There are laws in every community or county that specify which kinds of death the coroner investigates, either by review of the chart of by autopsy.

Liberace was a case in point. The famous musician died in Palm Springs. The physician signed the death certificate with a cause of death as heart failure brought on by subacute encephalopathy so that no autopsy would be necessary. The Riverside County coroner rejected the death certificate, since the medical records had shown he had tested positive for the AIDS virus and it is a reportable disease in California. The body had been embalmed and was not yet interred, but was soon to be. It was removed from the funeral home for the autopsy. The hospital in Rancho Mirage had originally refused the coroner's request for medical records, but the hospital administrator was given a court order to turn them over to the coroner. Essentially friends, family, his physicians and the hospital conspired to avoid letting the world know he died of AIDS. The coroner, however, has vast powers when it comes to death investigations. In Jahi's case, there is no question that it will happen.

http://articles.latimes.com/1987-02-07/local/me-1785_1_riverside-county

 

[MaybeNotToday]

They say a lot of things. Doesn't make them true. Until the hospital can tell their side, I'm not going to demonize them. The mother also apparently passed out, and became a patient herself. There is no telling what REALLY happened at this point. IMO

That's been so frustrating- Not hearing both sides

 

[wendiesan]

Sorry, in the quote I quoted it said she moves around when her mom talks to her. Is it possible to be brain dead and still move your body?

Yes. eta Your body can move after death but you cannot direct the movement.
There was a lot of discussion about the Lazarus sign and other reflex movements in previous discussion thread. Several posters with medical backgrounds and/or personal experience shared explanations and anecdotes. I'm sure other posters will bring relevant sites to your attention, but you might find the discussion about reflex movments very enlightening.

http://mindhacks.com/2010/10/20/video-of-the-lazarus-sign/
Lazarus sign - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://www.neurology.org/content/34...4b70f962591dfd2d96b3d91a&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15013288
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10636153

 

[Karmady]

Sorry, in the quote I quoted it said she moves around when her mom talks to her. Is it possible to be brain dead and still move your body?

No. But based on what the med pros here have posted and linked, it is possible for your body to move.

Also, I wonder where the rumored video of this is.

jmo

 

[Softail]

Link doesn't work...the response I get is this:

Sorry, the page you were looking for in this blog does not exist.

I don't think she is here right now.... I think this is the link she meant.

http://sprocket-trials.blogspot.com/2014/01/the-long-sad-death-of-jahi-mcmath.html

 

[MaybeNotToday]

I disagree with this because in the ICUs that I have worked in shift change occurs at the bedside so the patient can be observed. Whenever there is a decompensation during shift change the outgoing nurse or both nurses will attend to the patient as the patient always takes priority. The patient is never out of eyesight. We work as a team to save the patient always. There is no blame involved.

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk

I figured it would be different in an ICU setting, in which my stay, gratefully, was not. I just wondered if shift change could really be used as an excuse in an ICU

 

[Donjeta]

So she is moving around? How is that possible?

A brain dead person may exhibit spinal reflexes (not for the faint of heart: there are youtube videos of the Lazarus reflex).

If the nurses fix her position with pillows an arm or a leg could slide off due to gravity and wishful thinking could see it as purposeful movement.

It could be that she doesn't really move but the family thinks saying so helps put off the pulling of the plugs.

Or she could have been falsely diagnosed but it seems to me that there was no room for error with all those tests and all those doctors examining her, almost two weeks apart.

 

[MEN3C]

We already know from last week that at least one facility withdrew its offer because its physicians did not want to work on a deceased person:

Dolan said the unnamed Los Angeles-area facility withdrew its offer because it didn't want media attention or to jeopardize its relationship with its doctors, who refused to treat someone who's been declared brain dead.

-http://www.mercurynews.com/california/ci_24812585/jahi-mcmath-mom-and-lawyer-say-only-remaining

I wouldn't be surprised if the other offers also fall through for the same reason. Ethically speaking, it seems'wrong to me to keep writing notes and orders on a deceased person.

 

[sherbetjello]

Sorry, in the quote I quoted it said she moves around when her mom talks to her. Is it possible to be brain dead and still move your body?

Yes. You can google or youtube "Lazarus sign", but I have to warn you, it's NOT for those easily fainted.

Donjeta beat me to the post. Happens a lot in this thread.

:findinglink:

 

[gitana1]

An article about another brain dead child and a court battle:

NEW YORK (AP) — A 12-year-old New York City boy whose family battled a Washington hospital over his care has died in the hospital, the family's lawyer said Sunday.
Motl Brody was pronounced dead Nov. 4 by Children's National Medical Center in Washington, but a machine continued to inflate and deflate his lungs.
His remaining bodily functions ceased Saturday, the lawyer, Jeffrey Zuckerman, said.
"He passed away early Saturday," Zuckerman said. http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-11-16-braindead-death_N.htm

 

[fruity]

I googled and got the link for the lazarus sign video but didn't have the nerve to press play.

For the person who asked, Jahi's family declined to release the videos of her moving to the public. Strange, IMO, because it could really strengthen what they're saying if people don't know/understand about spinal reflexes. Their refusal to release it says a lot, IMO.

 

[Karmady]

I just want to point out a communication phenomena that's important in this case, imo, and is playing out in this thread right now. The question was asked whether it's "possible to be brain dead and still move your body." Everyone who answered with a yes or no, followed by an explanation answered yes, except me. I said no, but your body can move. I think this is such an important distinction in this case because being able to "still move your body" implies that the movement is deliberate in some sense. Using that language is part of the problem in this case because, although it is common speech, it has nuanced meaning that influences peoples' perceptions. It's the same type of problem we've been discussing wrt "life-support," for example.

And please don't get me wrong. I'm not at all being critical of anyone here (or anywhere, really). That string of posts just struck me since there were two different answers -- yes and no -- answering the same question and providing the same explanation.

jmo

 

[Karmady]

I googled and got the link for the lazarus sign video but didn't have the nerve to press play.

For the person who asked, Jahi's family declined to release the videos of her moving to the public. Strange, IMO, because it could really strengthen what they're saying if people don't know/understand about spinal reflexes. Their refusal to release it says a lot, IMO.

Don't. It's disturbing. And I'm not easily disturbed. jmo

 

[Donjeta]

Someone wrote on the NBCC Facebook that Jahi will wake up from her coma when they take her off the propanolol because that's what happened to her son who apparently was in a medically induced coma after his TBI. The page owners thanked her and said they would forward the information to Jahi's family. Which was very kind of them, but useless and confusing because Jahi does not receive any medications to keep her in a coma, according to Dr. Fisher's notes. (I think she meant propofol anyway.)

I can't even imagine how much false information and encouraging stories that are completely irrelevant in Jahi's situation the family must have received from well-meaning people.

 

[otto]

This is part of the reason I believe they are just going to bring her home. IF they sign the papers at the coroner's office, that is the only "facility" I see. IMO.... :twocents:

There must be laws about how long someone can keep a deceased person at a private residence.

 

[gitana1]

I feel there is a gruesome and horrible obsession by some in our country with this case and a gruesome and horrible determination to keep vigil on the process of pulling the plug so they can force the family to "accept", "heal", and get "closure", which never happens in the case of a dead child.

I actually think if there was a pay per view of the hospital pulling the plug and close ups of the kid's wailing, horrified family looking on, there would be many who would watch with a gleeful or grim satisfaction.

Read any yahoo or CNN comments. You'll see what I mean.

 

[LaLaw2000]

Unfortunately, there are children dying and mothers hearing horrible news on all days of the year, including all religious holidays of all religions.

I stopped reading at this post for a while because it hit me hard. My own son was killed in an accident on Thanksgiving Day, 1999. I got the call at 2:17 in the afternoon while we were waiting Thanksgiving dinner on him. It's true you do not get to pick the time or the day. He was DOA. Then I lost my husband 81/2 months later.

I am not saying this for sympathy because sympathy does not help reality. It does nothing for me. However; I do think sympathy plays a big part in Jahi's case. While we all ache for Jahi, sympathy will not help her. It is for her siblings and her parents, and of course, her grandparents. I cannot imagine Jahi's mother's feelings. I cannot help but feel that someone is guiding the mother's feelings in this. Was it the uncle, the lawyer, or maybe the grandmother? IDK, but reality is something they will have to face and IMO, it shouldn't have taken this long. If nothing will bring Jahi back, then all anyone is doing is prolonging the inevitable.

I think there are some very misguided people advising the mother. The 'in your face' one is the lawyer. He has no idea what the mother and family is going through, IMO. He gives me the creeps.

My post is not helping anyone. It is just that I have kept asking myself over and over what I would have done had it been my daughter or son. What if we had a choice when my son was in that accident? I do very honestly believe if we'd been told over and over he was brain dead and nothing could be done, we would have let him go, but very peacefully, lovingly, and with the tremendous sorrow we would have already been feeling.

Again, this post helps no one. I suppose I just had to write it. Please, no one offer sympathy in the loss of my son and husband. I have finally learned to remember the good times and the funny times and smile. Jahi's mother would over time be able to do that also. She may not think so now, but she would.

I simply cannot stop thinking about Jahi. May GB that precious child.

MOO

 

[Oetzi]

So she is moving around? How is that possible?

This would be my guess.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazarus_sign

ETA: Others have already mentioned the Lazarus Sign. There is a video on youtube that describes it, but it is graphic.

 

[iluvmua]

I believe all the ICU rooms have cameras?