Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #7

[MissJ]

In the medical field, professionals are expected to evaluate knowledge deficits and provide teaching. This especially applies to RNs. In Louisiana it is a requirement for RNs. We never assume someone understands no matter how simple the information may seem. A professor in my nursing school taught us that to assume will make an a$$ out of you and me. That stuck. I assess for knowledge, teach and evaluate for understanding and re-teach if needed and re-evaluate. If I don't do that and something happens I am liable. The teaching is also documented as well as understanding by the client.

I understand all that....but to me informed consent means informed consent. Read the paperwork...ask questions when you are reading. That is expected. Of course when questions are asked an RN or MD answers them. But it does not require continuous reinforcing......does it? I'm beyond sure that the staff told family that Jahi was not to eat. How many times does it require being said? Would it have made a difference? Some how I doubt it. Just glad I'm retired.

 

[neesaki]

Forgive me as I came in late on this thread, but haven't been able to find how Jahi became "brain dead" after her surgery. I have found that she started bleeding and hemorrhaging, then went into cardiac arrest, then was declared brain dead three days later. They had to have done CPR and given her oxygen, so how did she end up like this ?... very strange. I have to wonder how much time elapsed before there was emergency medical intervention and she received oxygen . Also, don't understand why the family won't allow the hospital to release any information as to what happened. Also strange.

TIA to anyone who can shed any light on my questions. :wave:

Hiya Katy :seeya:

 

[Marg from Oz]

(I kind of feel like we have discussed this many times already, but since there are some folks new to the discussion here, I'll link some info once more. I'd like to recommend the old threads as a great source for new readers looking for more info.)

This is a really fascinating discussion by a physician who is also an organ procurement surgeon, who is a woman, and a mom. The whole article is lengthy, but worth the read, IMO. Very thought provoking and poignant.

http://www.vqronline.org/articles/2005/fall/chen-dead-enough/



It's also worth mentioning that the brain meninges will contain the deteriorated brain tissue, so unless there is some trauma, it's unlikely there would be leakage from the nose or ears. Someone upthread questioned that.

Suffice to say that the body that remains on the ventilator will undergo a progressive, and relentless deterioration in all body systems. Some areas will deteriorate and fail faster than others. Jahi's body from Dec 12 onward has not received the type of aggressive support that, for example, a brain dead pregnant woman might receive. We can expect her organ systems to be in worse shape than, say, the woman in Texas who is brain dead and pregnant.

Dr. Fiori's statement to the court from about 10 days ago illustrates what Jahi's body's condition was at that time. We have no rational reason to believe that there is any improvement from the time of that report. (Link to the report at the beginning of this thread.)

A wonderful easy read. would recommend all to read.

 

[Donjeta]

Forgive me as I came in late on this thread, but haven't been able to find how Jahi became "brain dead" after her surgery. I have found that she started bleeding and hemorrhaging, then went into cardiac arrest, then was declared brain dead three days later. They had to have done CPR and given her oxygen, so how did she end up like this ?... very strange. I have to wonder how much time elapsed before there was emergency medical intervention and she received oxygen . Also, don't understand why the family won't allow the hospital to release any information as to what happened. Also strange.

TIA to anyone who can shed any light on my questions. :wave:

Hiya Katy :seeya:

The exact details have not been released but it was reported that she had brain swelling so the best I can figure out is the hypoxic damage due to the cardiac arrest caused her brain to swell, the swelling cut off brain perfusion and the perfusion defect caused the brain death.

 

[ArianeEmory]

BBM

I would never reference Wikipedia as any authority given that it is subject to editing by readers.

SBM

o/t, but I think this is a bit of an outdated attitude towards wikipedia. The article on 'brain death', for example, has fourteen references to professional studies. And the 'anyone can edit it' is a straw-man argument; yes, anyone can edit it, that means for the one person who goes and posts something incorrect, there are several hundred (potentially better informed, degree-holding, etc), who have that page on their 'watch' list and can immediately correct it. And if a page is subject to 'vandalism' it can be locked so that, no, not 'anyone' can edit it.

The only way a site with that much sheer information could exist is if it was allowed to be the enormous group project that it is. And it's been shown that the more editors a given article has, the higher its accuracy.

Reliability of Wikipedia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Reavley et al. (2012) compared the quality of articles on select mental health topics on Wikipedia with corresponding articles in Encyclopaedia Britannica and a psychiatry textbook. They asked experts to rate article content with regard to accuracy, up-to-dateness, breadth of coverage, referencing and readability. Wikipedia scored highest on all criteria except readability, and the authors concluded that Wikipedia is as good as or better than Britannica and a standard textbook.[9]

 

[Sonya610]

She is not going to decompose while on the ventilator

Google images of gangrene (be prepared, they are very graphic).

Gangrene is what happens when the tissue of LIVING people dies (diabetics are prone, some in a vegetative state get it too and they are a whole lot more "alive" than Jahi's body is).

If that can happen to people that are most definitely ALIVE just imagine what could happen in Jahi's case. What would the family do? Watch it eat her limbs away OR ask to have the limbs of the body amputated to slow the progression?

Gangrene is also a problem for embalmers to as it continues AFTER death.

 

[threecrazykids]

iirc the death certificate was an interim certificate only. Full death certificate will be issued and registered after the autopsy. Let me know if I'm incorrect.

Hmmm...so people can have two death certificates? I thought that the whole point of issuing the death certificate was to establish that she was LEGALLY dead, therefore anything in regards to the laws would establish her death on Dec 12th. I would have thought that all insurance coverage would cease which is why they were asking for donations.

How can there be two death certificates for one person? It was my understanding that the only thing missing from that certificate was the COD which was to be added after her body was returned to the coroner.

:waitasec:

 

[Tulessa]

But would they know how to use that device and what it was for? It seems so odd to me that layman would grab a medical tool from the wall and begin to use it on a child who was post-op. It makes more sense to me that Grandma might do so, since she would know how to use it and know its purpose. Just pure peculation on my part though.

I'm just wondering if that suctioning device was used in an attempt to suction out solid food.

 

[dh109977]

I'm just wondering if that suctioning device was used in an attempt to suction out solid food.

That's what I believe happened. Then it all went south from there.

 

[MissJ]

I'm just wondering if that suctioning device was used in an attempt to suction out solid food.

Makes sense to me. She probably couldn't swallow very well if at all.:twocents:

 

[dh109977]

Makes sense to me. She probably couldn't swallow very well if at all.:twocents:

So to add to this. Do you think the whole keeping her on a ventilator is just to hope to mask the cause of death. If it comes out that the suction caused the bleed. That the family caused the bleed they wouldn't win a malpractice suit. Assuming of course that the suction device was in the icu and not handed to them by a nurse. So do you think it all boils down to guilt and money?

 

[Cubby]

But would they know how to use that device and what it was for? It seems so odd to me that layman would grab a medical tool from the wall and begin to use it on a child who was post-op. It makes more sense to me that Grandma might do so, since she would know how to use it and know its purpose. Just pure peculation on my part though.

Good point. I think it's possible NW and MW may have observed nursing staff using the suction device on Jahi, and then when the nursing staff was out of the room (as described in msm) perhaps NW took it upon herself to pick it up again and use it herself?

I just can't see any nursing staff requesting family use such a device, and uncle OS's comments were such that the family had to do this because there was no nursing staff around.....

 

[Cubby]

Google images of gangrene (be prepared, they are very graphic).

Gangrene is what happens when the tissue of LIVING people dies (diabetics are prone, some in a vegetative state get it too and they are a whole lot more "alive" than Jahi's body is).

If that can happen to people that are most definitely ALIVE just imagine what could happen in Jahi's case. What would the family do? Watch it eat her limbs away OR ask to have the limbs of the body amputated to slow the progression?

Gangrene is also a problem for embalmers to as it continues AFTER death.

Since you mentioned it..... I have wondered if it will even be possible for Jahi to be embalmed after so much time.

 

[Cubby]

Interesting article FWIW:



http://www.traditionalcatholicpries...on-jahi-mcmath-dr-paul-byrne-and-brain-death/

Dr. Bryne has an agenda and it is -not- Jahi. As a catholic myself, I am offended he chose to use the word "slave" in his description along with unborn babies.

I wonder if he would have chosen the word slave if Jahi was Caucasian. The man is clearly trying to stoke the fire and it is pathetically sad when he can't rely on scripture, but has to throw in the race card. As if brain death discriminates among races. It doesn't.

So sad how people twist and manipulate situations to suit their agenda's. Shame on you, Dr. Bryne.

 

[Melanie]

Been in/out of this thread a few days. Any news? Is the family still raising funds? Is Jahi decomposing somewhere? I'm just surprised that the family was SO vocal in the early days, and now not a peep. Seems odd to me.

MOO

Mel

 

[Minette]

Interesting article FWIW:

Dr. Paul Byrne, a pediatrician and former president of Catholic Medical Association, says in court documents that he visited Jahi’s bedside and observed her responding to her grandmother’s voice and touch with a squirming movement. That’s another indication that Jahi’s brain is still functioning. Calling her “brain dead”, while her brain is demonstrably alive and working, seems more like a gimmick, similar to how unborn babies and slaves have been called “non-persons”.
http://www.traditionalcatholicpries...on-jahi-mcmath-dr-paul-byrne-and-brain-death/

Oh, this guy, this GUY. So, if it squirms in response to stimuli it can't possibly be dead, then. So these frogs are still alive by Dr. Byrne's definition (WARNING: VIDEO MAY BE DISTURBING TO SOME.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_K6VqEQuaA
Completely alive, those frogs. Yeah. Right.

 

[krimekat]

Been in/out of this thread a few days. Any news? Is the family still raising funds? Is Jahi decomposing somewhere? I'm just surprised that the family was SO vocal in the early days, and now not a peep. Seems odd to me.

MOO

Mel

IMHO the family realizes she is dead or maybe her heart has stopped (finally)

Weird to me, too, that they were so vocal & now nothing . . .

still re-reading the family members' earlier statements/interviews

And I do not like the fact Omari (uncle) discusses incidents like he was present & not in Cabo (as we know he was)

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Been in/out of this thread a few days. Any news? Is the family still raising funds? Is Jahi decomposing somewhere? I'm just surprised that the family was SO vocal in the early days, and now not a peep. Seems odd to me.

MOO

Mel

Too quiet. I'm also more than a little surprised that Jahi's location hasn't leaked to the media. :waitasec:

 

[Herding Cats]

And I do not like the fact Omari (uncle) discusses incidents like he was present & not in Cabo (as we know he was)

SBM.

See, that's why I can't believe anything from the family's side. NW passed out, Gramma isn't an RN (as she's led others to believe), and Uncle Omari was in Cabo.

No reliable reporter from the 'scene', as it were...

I can't believe anything this family says, you know? Just can't.

Still praying for Jahi...each and every day.

Best-
Herding Cats

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Hmmm...so people can have two death certificates? I thought that the whole point of issuing the death certificate was to establish that she was LEGALLY dead, therefore anything in regards to the laws would establish her death on Dec 12th. I would have thought that all insurance coverage would cease which is why they were asking for donations.

How can there be two death certificates for one person? It was my understanding that the only thing missing from that certificate was the COD which was to be added after her body was returned to the coroner.

:waitasec:

Live Once, Die Twice (2006 TV Movie)