Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #9

[katydid23]

Did the hospital donate all services? I wasn't aware of that. In fact, I'm not aware of any hospital who will donate free services. Please cite a link. Thanks.

JMO

SHRINERS HOSPITAL provides FREE care to their patients in need.
https://www.shrinershospitalsforchildren.org


SHRINERS: Care beyond cost
We are committed to providing the best care for children in our specialty areas of Orthopaedics, Burn Care, Spinal Cord Injury, and Cleft Lip and Palate, regardless of a family’s ability to pay.



ETA: oops, just saw that K/T posted the same example

 

[Donjeta]

What organizations promote the view that brain dead people should be maintained indefinitely on life support? I think it will be snowing on the sun before any government or hospital waives the charges and admits a brain-dead person to an ICU bed just to appease a family. You are aware that Oakland Children's Hospital refused to do so, right?

JMO

NJ is a special case because the family has more legal standing there to determine whether a brain dead person should be considered dead. Obviously she was admitted and the family is not paying. Jmo.

If the death certificate is not official yet, are the insurance companies yet out of the woods?

As for the organisations, try the ones that Paul Byrne represents. The Lifenews site and Terri Schiavo people said
Jahi should be kept on the ventilator. The school taught the childreyn that Jahi could wake up if they just pray hard enough. Some people on the FB and donation sites cite their religion as cause to support endless life support and the family argued religious grounds at the court. I don't know what their religion is but any churches that teach this could and should try to pitch in. There appears to be plenty of people who believe that the braindead could wake up or that even if they don't we have to keep them ventilated until God decides to turn the heart off too.

There might be people on that hospital admin too who think this is the right thing to do.

 

[MyBelle]

SHRINERS HOSPITAL provides FREE care to their patients in need.
https://www.shrinershospitalsforchildren.org


SHRINERS: Care beyond cost
We are committed to providing the best care for children in our specialty areas of Orthopaedics, Burn Care, Spinal Cord Injury, and Cleft Lip and Palate, regardless of a family’s ability to pay.



ETA: oops, just saw that K/T posted the same example

You are trying to engage in a straw-man argument. My point has never been that charity hospitals don't exist, my point is that they do not admit already brain-dead people and place them in the ICU. Charity or not.

If you can find one that does, please identify it. Oakland Hospital refused to provide continued care for Jahi and cited medical ethics. All hospitals and physicians are bound by medical ethics. Do you really believe if a child being treated at a Shriners Hosp. who experiences brain death as a complication of treatment is going to stay indefinitely at Shriners because I sure don't believe it possible.

The hospital refused to fit her with a feeding tube or a breathing tube that would help stabilize her during a move, saying it was unethical to perform medical procedures on a dead person.


http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...hi-mcmath-released-to-coroner-mother-hospital

 

[katydid23]

You are trying to engage in a straw-man argument. My point has never been that charity hospitals don't exist, my point is that they do not admit already brain-dead people and place them in the ICU. Charity or not.

If you can find one that does, please identify it. Oakland Hospital refused to provide continued care for Jahi and cited medical ethics. All hospitals and physicians are bound by medical ethics. Do you really believe if a child being treated at a Shriners Hosp. who experiences brain death as a complication of treatment is going to stay indefinitely at Shriners because I sure don't believe it possible.

The hospital refused to fit her with a feeding tube or a breathing tube that would help stabilize her during a move, saying it was unethical to perform medical procedures on a dead person.


http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...hi-mcmath-released-to-coroner-mother-hospital

Here is your answer:
http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/byrne

Paul A. Byrne, M.D.


Dr. Byrne is past-President of the Catholic Medical Association (USA), formerly Clinical Professor of Pediatrics at St. Louis University in St. Louis, MO and Creighton University in Omaha, NE. He was Professor of Pediatrics and Chairman of the Pediatric Department at Oral Roberts University School of Medicine and Chairman of the Ethics Committee of the City of Faith Medical and Research Center in Tulsa, OK. He is author and producer of the film "Continuum of Life" and author of the books "Life, Life Support and Death," "Beyond Brain Death," and "Is 'Brain Death' True Death?"

Dr. Byrne has presented testimony on "life issues" to nine state legislatures beginning in 1967. He opposed Dr. Kevorkian on the television program "Cross-Fire." He has been interviewed on Good Morning America, public television in Japan and participated in the British Broadcasting Corporation Documentary "Are the Donors Really Dead?" Dr. Byrne has authored articles against euthanasia, abortion, and "brain death" in medical journals, law literature and lay press.

March 18, 2014
Jahi McMath--accepting her life

By Paul A. Byrne, M.D.;
[The following Response to "Jahi McMath and Determining Death," Ethics and Medics 39(3) March 2014, was submitted to National Catholic Bioethics Center (NCBC) for publication, which was denied. Jahi McMath, a13 year old girl, is living and needs physicians, theologians, lawyers and others to stand up for her. This is about protecting Jahi and everyone, not only Catholics, but the NCBC has done nothing to protect or support Jahi, or anyone else in a similar condition.]

Dead is dead – except when it isn't. The National Catholic Bioethics Center ethicists have claimed repeatedly that Jahi McMath is dead. Yet Jahi continues to live. Jahi is Jahi, not a dead body receiving treatment, care and love. Jahi can be called a corpse, but she is not a corpse; she is a living human being.

 

[CHERIE.T]

I cannot believe this child is still on life support. I hoped after all this time Jahi's body would stop, allowing her to completely RIP.

How long will this go on?

 

[katydid23]

You are trying to engage in a straw-man argument. My point has never been that charity hospitals don't exist, my point is that they do not admit already brain-dead people and place them in the ICU. Charity or not.

If you can find one that does, please identify it. Oakland Hospital refused to provide continued care for Jahi and cited medical ethics. All hospitals and physicians are bound by medical ethics. Do you really believe if a child being treated at a Shriners Hosp. who experiences brain death as a complication of treatment is going to stay indefinitely at Shriners because I sure don't believe it possible.

The hospital refused to fit her with a feeding tube or a breathing tube that would help stabilize her during a move, saying it was unethical to perform medical procedures on a dead person.


http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...hi-mcmath-released-to-coroner-mother-hospital

Let me try to sum it up. Dr Byrne is a very prominent speaker, medical ethicist and Catholic Pediatrician. His main theme is that 'BRAIN DEAD does not mean DEATH.'

So now he has a perfect case to illustrate his beliefs. And so he pulls strings to get her admitted to a Catholic charitable institution, in the ICU, and he can demonstrate his hypothesis. Jahi is NOT DEAD. That is his theory and he is sticking to it. jmo

ETA: in his own words:



"Dead is dead – except when it isn't. The National Catholic Bioethics Center ethicists have claimed repeatedly that Jahi McMath is dead. Yet Jahi continues to live. Jahi is Jahi, not a dead body receiving treatment, care and love. Jahi can be called a corpse, but she is not a corpse; she is a living human being."

 

[LaLaw2000]

Let me try to sum it up. Dr Byrne is a very prominent speaker, medical ethicist and Catholic Pediatrician. His main theme is that 'BRAIN DEAD does not mean DEATH.'

So now he has a perfect case to illustrate his beliefs. And so he pulls strings to get her admitted to a Catholic charitable institution, in the ICU, and he can demonstrate his hypothesis. Jahi is NOT DEAD. That is his theory and he is sticking to it. jmo

ETA: in his own words:



"Dead is dead – except when it isn't. The National Catholic Bioethics Center ethicists have claimed repeatedly that Jahi McMath is dead. Yet Jahi continues to live. Jahi is Jahi, not a dead body receiving treatment, care and love. Jahi can be called a corpse, but she is not a corpse; she is a living human being."

What a delusional statement!

MOO

 

[jjenny]

I cannot believe this child is still on life support. I hoped after all this time Jahi's body would stop, allowing her to completely RIP.

How long will this go on?

Years. Children's bodies last longer than those of adults.

 

[AnaTeresa]

Let me try to sum it up. Dr Byrne is a very prominent speaker, medical ethicist and Catholic Pediatrician. His main theme is that 'BRAIN DEAD does not mean DEATH.'

So now he has a perfect case to illustrate his beliefs. And so he pulls strings to get her admitted to a Catholic charitable institution, in the ICU, and he can demonstrate his hypothesis. Jahi is NOT DEAD. That is his theory and he is sticking to it. jmo

ETA: in his own words:



"Dead is dead – except when it isn't. The National Catholic Bioethics Center ethicists have claimed repeatedly that Jahi McMath is dead. Yet Jahi continues to live. Jahi is Jahi, not a dead body receiving treatment, care and love. Jahi can be called a corpse, but she is not a corpse; she is a living human being."

What I find baffling is that this is all not very Catholic. I find it extremely frustrating that Dr. Byrne and this hospital are trying to make this into a Catholic, pro-life issue, when Catholic bioethicists have been very clear about brain death.

Catholic teaching holds that “full brain death” criteria are legitimate indicators that the patient has died.
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/catholic-bioethicist-advises-caution-in-jahi-mcmath-case/

From the National Catholic Bioethicists Center:

The media is often imprecise in the way that they say that a patient who is brain dead “had life support removed, and died.” Obviously, one who is dead cannot die again. Reporting such as this shows a careless imprecision in the use of language and a general ignorance about neurological criteria for ascertaining death.

Pope Pius XII and Pope John Paul II both said the Church has no competency in determining death; this properly belongs to medical science.

Why does the use of neurological criteria remain controversial?

As mentioned above, when a person suffers total loss of brain function, the heart may continue to beat with the assistance of mechanical ventilatory support. In such cases, this artificial support may cause the victim to appear alive visually and to the touch. Medical evidence, indicated by the four signs listed above, shows that this is not the case. In short, there is no reason for controversy. The use of neurological criteria makes certain that life has ceased.

http://www.ncbcenter.org/page.aspx?pid=1285

 

[MyBelle]

What I find baffling is that this is all not very Catholic. I find it extremely frustrating that Dr. Byrne and this hospital are trying to make this into a Catholic, pro-life issue, when Catholic bioethicists have been very clear about brain death.



From the National Catholic Bioethicists Center:






http://www.ncbcenter.org/page.aspx?pid=1285

BBM. Where do you get the idea that Saint Peter's University Hospital has made Jahi's case into a right to life issue? I haven't seen the hospital even admit to the media that Jahi is there. Did I miss an announcement?

I highly doubt one man is going to dictate the medical ethics or accreditation standards of any hospital in the United States. I think the same medical ethics that apply to Oakland Children's Hospital also apply to physicians at Saint Peter University Hospital in New Jersey.

JMO

 

[AnaTeresa]

BBM. Where do you get the idea that Saint Peter's University Hospital has made Jahi's case into a right to life issue? I haven't seen the hospital even admit to the media that Jahi is there. Did I miss an announcement?

I highly doubt one man is going to dictate the medical ethics or accreditation standards of any hospital in the United States. I think the same medical ethics that apply to Oakland Children's Hospital also apply to physicians at Saint Peter University Hospital in New Jersey.

JMO

Frankly, just by admitting her. There has been plenty of talk on the fringe edges of this situation, making parallels with right to life arguments. If a Catholic hospital is caring for her with the position that she is not actually dead, that places them in conflict not only with other hospitals, but also mainstream Catholic teachings. That's why I posted the above - it's not the Catholic position to oppose a legitimate finding of brain death. To now be trying to circumvent this is scary and a slippery slope.

 

[MyBelle]

Frankly, just by admitting her. There has been plenty of talk on the fringe edges of this situation, making parallels with right to life arguments. If a Catholic hospital is caring for her with the position that she is not actually dead, that places them in conflict not only with other hospitals, but also mainstream Catholic teachings. That's why I posted the above - it's not the Catholic position to oppose a legitimate finding of brain death. To now be trying to circumvent this is scary and a slippery slope.

"If" hasn't been proved to be happening. That is your speculation. The New Jersey hospital and physicians are bound by the same code of medical ethics and standards as the Oakland Children's Hospital. The reason Oakland could not treat Jahi any longer was because doing so was against medical ethics. A Judge agreed. It is my opinion the same ethics still apply everywhere else. Catholic or not.

JMO

Hospital officials say it was unethical to perform medical procedures on a dead person.


http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/brain-dead-girl-jahi-mcmath-moved-from-california-hospital-1.2486196

 

[lawstudent]

Medical ethics can vary, I think, in terms of how the courts view it. There was a case in MA a long time ago, so attitudes have changed, but a man was in a PVS with a feeding tube, much like with Terri Schiavo. His wife nutrition to cease, and presented evidence that he would have wanted it. The doctors said it was against medical ethics. The court said they could not make doctors violate their medical ethics, but that they could allow her to move him to another facility that was willing. I'm not sure if it was a medical facility or a nursing home. It was really controversial because several members of the court thought that removing the tube was just wrong and would be against ethics anywhere, but the majority seemed to recognize a variance. But maybe there were no doctors involved at the second location.

Looking at Catholic doctrine again, they apparently have said it's up to medicine. I think they have wanted to embrace organ donation, so they have not been definitive. The teaching is that organ donation must occur after death, and that doctors can determine when that is. So they do accept brain death as a widely accepted medical principle.

 

[K_Z]

Up thread a ways, I wrote about Dr. Alan Shewmon, and his research. Dr. Shewmon is a proponent of what could be described as an "integrated organism" theory of brain dead patients. He is well respected within medicine and bioethics, however most bioethicists seem to feel his ideas are controversial. He kind of leans in the direction as Dr. Paul Byrne in that he feels a brain dead body on a vent could still be considered an alive organism, but I think his ideas are expressed much better than Dr Byrne's, who, IMO, is more of a quasi-intellectual side show barker than a scholar. (Dr. Byrne's published articles are mostly vanity press, with no real peer review of his ideas. I can find no real bioethical research he's done involving people beyond the perinatal 30 days of life.)

So, like him or not, Dr. Shewmon has arguably done more REAL peer reviewed published research studying brain dead people with prolonged somatic support, and combing archives for retrospective research, than any other researcher or scholar I can find.

I came across this debate reply to some of his ideas a while back, and it seemed too esoteric to post back then. However, with the direction our current conversation has taken with regard to ethics, particularly with regard to the involvement of a Catholic health care system, I thought some might find this interesting. Note that both authors have employment/ involvement with Catholic institutions and philosophies, however their arguments are not based on religion, but philosophy of the intact organism, and the potential for sentience. They have some very interesting "thought experiment" examples included in their article, such as dicephalic twins, or a newborn with a headless parasitic twin. They spend a lot of the article addressing the degree of the integrity and completeness of the animal (human) organism, versus function of parts such as transplanted organs. It's lengthy at 10 pages, but I found it to be a fascinating debate.

If it's your thing, and appeals to you, enjoy the read! There are too many good quotes to pick one, and I don't want to take any out of context.

http://www.twotlj.org/OW-TotalBrainDeath.pdf

 

[katydid23]

"If" hasn't been proved to be happening. That is your speculation. The New Jersey hospital and physicians are bound by the same code of medical ethics and standards as the Oakland Children's Hospital. The reason Oakland could not treat Jahi any longer was because doing so was against medical ethics. A Judge agreed. It is my opinion the same ethics still apply everywhere else. Catholic or not.

JMO

Hospital officials say it was unethical to perform medical procedures on a dead person.


http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/brain-dead-girl-jahi-mcmath-moved-from-california-hospital-1.2486196

BBM

if that is true, then why has she been cared for in the NJ hospital in ICU for many months now? At no cost?

 

[MyBelle]

Medical ethics can vary, I think, in terms of how the courts view it. There was a case in MA a long time ago, so attitudes have changed, but a man was in a PVS with a feeding tube, much like with Terri Schiavo. His wife nutrition to cease, and presented evidence that he would have wanted it. The doctors said it was against medical ethics. The court said they could not make doctors violate their medical ethics, but that they could allow her to move him to another facility that was willing. I'm not sure if it was a medical facility or a nursing home. It was really controversial because several members of the court thought that removing the tube was just wrong and would be against ethics anywhere, but the majority seemed to recognize a variance. But maybe there were no doctors involved at the second location.

Looking at Catholic doctrine again, they apparently have said it's up to medicine. I think they have wanted to embrace organ donation, so they have not been definitive. The teaching is that organ donation must occur after death, and that doctors can determine when that is. So they do accept brain death as a widely accepted medical principle.

I'm not sure of your point because in the case you describe, the patient was not brain-dead. I think Oakland Hospital did not refuse to care for Jahi because of any religious influence, they refused to care for her because doing so was medically unethical BECAUSE their doctors determined she is brain-dead. I think if something is medically unethical in California it is unethical in New Jersey.

So, if Jahi is currently a patient in another hospital ICU, the physicians must not agree with the medical diagnosis made by the physicians in Oakland. In the case of Justina Pelletier, the physicians at Boston Children's Hospital did not agree with the diagnosis made by doctors at Tufts. It happens.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

BBM

if that is true, then why has she been cared for in the NJ hospital in ICU for many months now? At no cost?

Where do you get that she is being cared for at no cost and how long she has been there? Do you have a link? Thanks.

 

[katydid23]

How long has she been there? – Nearly a month after 13-year-old Jahi McMath was taken to a care facility,[ article dated jan 2014]
So December 2013 is when she was moved to NJ.


http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/20...aims-to-show-jahi-mcmath-responding-to-touch/

as for who is paying, it is a process of elimination. The family has very little money, no insurance in NJ, especially any that would pay for care for a 'dead' child, and the family's ******** is not accruing enough to pay for an ICU for 9 months of care. So I have to assume the hospital is absorbing the costs. Catholic hospitals do so quite often when a family is in need.

 

[katydid23]

"New Jersey is one of the few states that allows a family to reject a doctor’s diagnosis of brain death."

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/20...i-mcmath-after-lawyer-said-girl-is-improving/

MyBelle, did you catch that distinction? A FAMILY can reject the diagnosis of brain death. THE FAMILY can override the hospitals decision that the child ' is dead.'

 

[MyBelle]

How long has she been there? – Nearly a month after 13-year-old Jahi McMath was taken to a care facility,[ article dated jan 2014]
So December 2013 is when she was moved to NJ.


http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/20...aims-to-show-jahi-mcmath-responding-to-touch/

as for who is paying, it is a process of elimination. The family has very little money, no insurance in NJ, especially any that would pay for care for a 'dead' child, and the family's ******** is not accruing enough to pay for an ICU for 9 months of care. So I have to assume the hospital is absorbing the costs. Catholic hospitals do so quite often when a family is in need.

a care facility is not necessarily a hospital. Your assumptions are not fact. I don't know of any Catholic hospital that admits dead people to their ICU unit.

JMO