Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #9

[Quester]

Reminder: Jahi McMath 2000? - 2013

[I'll withhold the RIP for now due to the current circumstances.]

 

[MyBelle]

What else can someone believe? This child was declared brain dead by multiple doctors. It's not possible to recover from brain death.
So are we supposed to believe that somehow this child was able to recover from brain death, yet no shred of evidence has been provided in support of this idea? You do understand that this would be the first documented case of this happening, and thus major news?

I am hardly an expert on what someone else believes. My take is that the child was declared brain dead and apparently her mother has never believed she was brain dead. If the mother never believed the child to be brain dead in the first place, then it wouldn't be a matter of belief that the child would recover from brain death. I think the mother is hopeful she will awaken from a coma. The nasty vitriol extended toward the mother in social media is far more disturbing than a mother keeping a vigil for her child. I hope the family has undertaken safety precautions.

JMO

 

[liljim]

Yes and it appears it has no similarity to this case whatsoever. A head injury from a skiing accident really has no similarity to complications from a surgery for a throat disorder, in my humble opinion.

ummm the similarity was the diagnosis of brain death, not the injuries that brought it about.

 

[MyBelle]

ummm the similarity was the diagnosis of brain death, not the injuries that brought it about.

Quite a stretch, imo. Jahi was already in the hospital when she experienced a complication resulting in brain death. Pretty distant from a ski slope.

JMO

 

[wondering?]

If you have ever visited a Nursing Home or had a loved one living there, the mind can be gone, there could be no communication with the loved one, virtually dead except they are still alive, breathing, and we still try to maintain dignity by dressing, lipstick on the ladies, jewelery, pretty sweaters, sometimes makeup. Who knows if this is a perk up for the patient but it certainly is for the family.
This could be the same thing here, why not have her looking as nice as possible for her dignity and for those who work with her and her relatives.

 

[threecrazykids]

I am hardly an expert on what someone else believes. My take is that the child was declared brain dead and apparently her mother has never believed she was brain dead. If the mother never believed the child to be brain dead in the first place, then it wouldn't be a matter of belief that the child would recover from brain death. I think the mother is hopeful she will awaken from a coma. The nasty vitriol extended toward the mother in social media is far more disturbing than a mother keeping a vigil for her child. I hope the family has undertaken safety precautions.

JMO

I understand what you're saying, but flat out denying your child is brain dead doesn't make it any less true. You can deny anything you want to in your life - even the circumstance of death - but that doesn't change the circumstance.
No matter HOW much we sometimes don't want things to be true - it doesn't necessarily change from fact to fiction.
It's a horrible situation - and I have the utmost sympathy for her - however, I honestly don't think these supporters are doing anything but delaying her pain, sorrow, and realization that no matter HOW much praying they do, or how much money they raise - it's not enough to "bring her back". IF she was in a coma - then that is different. She's not in a coma though. We can "believe" she's just sleepy - that doesn't mean it's a fact...KWIM?

 

[liljim]

Quite a stretch, imo. Jahi was already in the hospital when she experienced a complication resulting in brain death. Pretty distant from a ski slope.

JMO

i dont understand what you mean - the comparison was between two people who were declared brain dead, it had nothing to do with how they arrived there, and for the purposes of the comparison how they arrived at brain death is completely inconsequential.

 

[MyBelle]

I understand what you're saying, but flat out denying your child is brain dead doesn't make it any less true. You can deny anything you want to in your life - even the circumstance of death - but that doesn't change the circumstance.
No matter HOW much we sometimes don't want things to be true - it doesn't necessarily change from fact to fiction.
It's a horrible situation - and I have the utmost sympathy for her - however, I honestly don't think these supporters are doing anything but delaying her pain, sorrow, and realization that no matter HOW much praying they do, or how much money they raise - it's not enough to "bring her back". IF she was in a coma - then that is different. She's not in a coma though. We can "believe" she's just sleepy - that doesn't mean it's a fact...KWIM?

It is a horrible situation. Is it not possible that her child isn't brain dead? Have you seen the child? I doubt the mother cares what we believe. She's with the child, we are not nor is it our child. What I find far more troubling is that complete strangers think they have a right to dictate what the mother believes, what she feels and most importantly, what she can pray about.

JMO

 

[lawstudent]

i dont understand what you mean - the comparison was between two people who were declared brain dead, it had nothing to do with how they arrived there, and for the purposes of the comparison how they arrived at brain death is completely inconsequential.

I think this poster is confused because he's thinking I mean she was brain dead on the slopes or something and then got flown to a Canadian hospital for verification. That's not what I'm talking about.

She had headaches after the fall, was rushed to a Canadian hospital, and despite their efforts became brain dead due to hemorrhaging from the injury (not brain trauma from the injury - she was walking and talking after the accident). Blood loss to the brain, as with Jahi. The Canadian hospital diagnosed her as brain dead. They then flew her to a New York hospital, where family visited, and she was taken off life support and declared dead. So the New York hospital agreed to accept her knowing she was brain dead. I'm not implying that was done at a reduced cost in that situation.

In general, I think hospitals can agree to waive costs whenever they want as long as they are privately run. The Board decides. It's not in their interest to do so, of course, but they sometimes do. I don't have any evidence that it happened in this case, but it would make sense to me if they agreed to take her.

 

[EmmaliLucia]

Let's say
- on the sidewalk, I encounter a panhandler asking for money to buy food for him to eat,
- I hand him a single, a five, a ten, twenty or hundred $,
- he goes into the liquor store to buy rotgot or down the block to his dope dealer,
- uses the $ for purposes other than food,
-has panhandler committed fraud?

If he asks for and receives money like this from 500 ppl, gets $100 from ea and uses something other than food, has he committed fraud?
1000 ppl? 10,000 ppl?

If so, what is the remedy?
Legal system - individual donors suing him in civil fraud action?
(Any private practice atty's ready to file this? Worthwhile - for atty or clients -on hourly rate, flat fee, contingency fee? Doubtful)

County prosecutor bringing criminal fraud charge against him, possibly leading to incarceration?
Prosecutors have limited budget and employees.

An asst prosecutor explained his thoughts about charge-or-no-charge decisions this way.
Yes, there may have been or there was misrepresentation, maybe fraud, but the county can't prosecute everything.
Ppl who gave panhandler $ were not coerced to do so and were not assaulted or injured.

When ppl give $ like this to an individual - a panhandler or Jahi's mom or others at personal funding sites,
Do ppl have a legal basis for expecting/relying on panhandler to buy food to eat, rather than to use for something else?
County budget & staff-power is more wisely used to prosecute -
- an armed robber who knocked a man unconscious in parking lot and ran off w $1000 from his wallet.
- a pair of teen thugs who knocked a little old lady to the ground at an ATM for her $300 withdrawal.
Those two victims suffered physical injury and did not willingly choose to part w the money.


Not saying sidewalk panhandling is a perfect corollary to Jahi's mom's actions.
Hoping not to offend but just repeating someone else's thoughts and reasoning on the subject.
Not saying this would be the thinking of any other prosecutors.

I wasn't necessarily thinking about the ******** site. I was thinking about all the charities they took money from, all the churches

 

[threecrazykids]

It is a horrible situation. Is it not possible that her child isn't brain dead? Have you seen the child? I doubt the mother cares what we believe. She's with the child, we are not nor is it our child. What I find far more troubling is that complete strangers think they have a right to dictate what the mother believes, what she feels and most importantly, what she can pray about.

JMO

I don't think it's possible she's not brain dead. I think they WANT to believe there is a possibility - which is why they are continuing their efforts. There have been MULTIPLE doctors who have ran the gamut of tests and they all determined the same outcome - she's brain dead. And there is NO recorded cases of someone "coming back" from true and factual brain death.
I have not seen the child - and I agree - the mother couldn't care less what anyone thinks at this point. She's on a mission to prove that her faith and Jahai's body is going to be the miracle child who "wakes from the dead". And I believe she honestly believes it.
I know I personally don't want to dictate WHAT the mother believes let alone what she prays for...that is 100% up to her. What I do think is that she has completely lost all sense of reason and has plummeted into a deep, deep hole of denial that her daughter is dead. It's very sad.
I base my opinion on the fact that it appears (from what little information has been released from the family) that she hasn't even CONSIDERED the fact that her daughter may remain in this state until her earthly body gives up the fight. If she had stated that she KNEW the likelyhood of her recovering is slim but that she couldn't give up so quickly, etc. everyone would have had more sympathy and said "let her do her thing" - but there is NO end in sight for reality to sink in with her. I don't think that's healthy - mentally, physically, etc. and I feel extremely sad for those who will be left to try to comfort her in the future.
I fear she may turn on those same people...saying THEY didn't pray hard enough, or THEY didn't believe in Jahai, or THEY raise enough money to "fix her".
But - that's their issue and hers to work through.

I personally feel what they are doing with Jahai is beyond disturbing and they have completely lost touch with reality and this entire fiasco has turned into much more than her original fight. Only time will tell I guess.

 

[katydid23]

Yes and it appears it has no similarity to this case whatsoever. A head injury from a skiing accident really has no similarity to complications from a surgery for a throat disorder, in my humble opinion.

Brain dead is Brain dead. Does it matter how it happened? I think the end results were identical. However, one family accepted the horrific situation, came together to grieve, and released their loved one. The other, has not done so yet.

 

[nrdsb4]

Did the hospital donate all services? I wasn't aware of that. In fact, I'm not aware of any hospital who will donate free services. Please cite a link. Thanks.

JMO

I worked at a hospital which routinely donates all services if the patient's family cannot afford to pay. Private donations make this possible. I have also worked at a hospital which has waived fees in certain situations. That's two facilities in the same city, so it seems entirely possible that there are other hospitals which do the same.

 

[MyBelle]

I worked at a hospital which routinely donates all services if the patient's family cannot afford to pay. Private donations make this possible. I have also worked at a hospital which has waived fees in certain situations. That's two facilities in the same city, so it seems entirely possible that there are other hospitals which do the same.

Sorry, my experience is limited to a university teaching hospital and medical center and they did not routinely donate all services to anyone. My dad's tab for an ICU stay for several months was over $400,000. Of course they were paid.

JMO

 

[nrdsb4]

^^^^The first I referenced has as its mission to treat ALL referred patients regardless of their ability to pay. The second I referenced does not do it routinely, only when special circumstances apply.

A friend died of leukemia recently. His insurance had run out, yet they treated him aggressively to the bitter end. His wife told me his bills were in excess of 6 million dollars, which she did not and never could pay. The hospital absorbed the costs. This hospital (and the second one I referenced) is a very large and renown teaching and research hospital, also in my city. I suspect these cases occur much more often than most people realize, so with regards to your certainty that this hospital would not donate all services, I wouldn't be so certain.

 

[MyBelle]

^^^^The first I referenced has as its mission to treat ALL referred patients regardless of their ability to pay. The second I referenced does not do it routinely, only when special circumstances apply.

A friend died of leukemia recently. His insurance had run out, yet they treated him aggressively to the bitter end. His wife told me his bills were in excess of 6 million dollars, which she did not and never could pay. The hospital absorbed the costs. This hospital (and the second one I referenced) is a very large and renown teaching and research hospital, also in my city. I suspect these cases occur much more often than most people realize, so with regards to your certainty that this hospital would not donate all services, I wouldn't be so certain.

I'm confident in my certainty. Thanks.

 

[nrdsb4]

I'm confident in my certainty. Thanks.

So you cannot contemplate the possibility of being wrong? Hmm, interesting.

 

[lawstudent]

A hospital isn't just going to walk around offering free services to patients, but if they happen to know of a very dire situation or the family talks with them about it, they may do something to help. It's not so much donating as waiving the bills. It's not something they just offer to do to be nice to any patient. That's why so many people get crushed by medical bills. They're going to do it for people in really bad circumstances who have no possible way of paying. I do not think Jahi's care is a good use of such benevolence, but donations are voluntary and my thoughts don't matter. If there is a religious affiliation, that may explain why it's important to them to use money for such purposes. Still difficult for me to come up with why they would do it, but until we know more, it just seems like a reasonable possibility.

Generally, donations don't have conditions attached. If you believe a story and it turns out to be false, too bad. But I have seen cases of people lying about having cancer and being charged with fraud - depends on the level of misrepresentation and how directly the exchange was based on that misrepresentation - I don't quite know how they decide who to prosecute.

ETA: I guess the point about the dissimilarity to Natasha Richardson is indicating that you think there's a much greater chance Jahi is not actually brain dead because she did not have a head injury? Brain death can result from literal trauma, but often times is from a lack of blood/oxygen to the brain for a long period of time due to suffocation or hemorrhaging. It doesn't make her recovery any more likely.

 

[Donjeta]

Not sure about Jahi but sometimes patients at St Peters do receive free services.

New Jersey Charity Care
Under the State of New Jersey’s Charity Care Program, Saint Peter’s University Hospital provides free care or care for reduced charges to a patient who qualifies, without respect to race, age, religion, national origin, gender or any other grounds unrelated to the patient’s need for service.
To get a list of required documents to complete a Charity Care application, please contact our Resource Services Department at 732-745-8600, extension 5019.
When all of your documents are gathered; Resource Advisors can meet with you in the Admitting area of the Saint Peters University Hospital or the Saint Peters University Hospital Family Care Center at 123 How Lane Monday through Friday, 8:00 a.m.–4:00 p.m. In-person or telephone interpreters are available for anyone speaking a language other than English.
Patients who do not qualify for NJ Charity Care may be entitled for a reduction of their bill thru the Saint Peters University Hospital Compassionate Care Discount.

http://www.saintpetershcs.com/Patients-and-Visitors/For-Patients/Billing-and-Payment-Guide/

http://www.state.nj.us/health/charitycare/documents/charitycare_factsheet_en.pdf

WHO IS ELIGIBLE FOR HOSPITAL CARE PAYMENT ASSISTANCE?
Hospital care payment assistance is available to New Jersey residents who:
1. Have no health coverage or have coverage that pays only for part of the bill: and
2. Are ineligible for any private or governmental sponsored coverage (such as Medicaid); and
3. Meet both the income and assets eligibility criteria listed below.
Hospital assistance is also available to non-New Jersey residents, subject to specific provisions.

Organizations like the Terri Schiavo foundation might pay for some of it.

On my part I'm confident that someone must be donating something as I doubt she would qualify for her family's regular medical insurance, having a death certificate and there's no way the family could pay out of their pockets and not be bankrupt and destitute by now.

 

[nrdsb4]

A hospital isn't just going to walk around offering free services to patients, but if they happen to know of a very dire situation or the family talks with them about it, they may do something to help. It's not so much donating as waiving the bills. It's not something they just offer to do to be nice to any patient. That's why so many people get crushed by medical bills. They're going to do it for people in really bad circumstances who have no possible way of paying. I do not think Jahi's care is a good use of such benevolence, but donations are voluntary and my thoughts don't matter. If there is a religious affiliation, that may explain why it's important to them to use money for such purposes. Still difficult for me to come up with why they would do it, but until we know more, it just seems like a reasonable possibility.

Generally, donations don't have conditions attached. If you believe a story and it turns out to be false, too bad. But I have seen cases of people lying about having cancer and being charged with fraud - depends on the level of misrepresentation and how directly the exchange was based on that misrepresentation - I don't quite know how they decide who to prosecute.

BBM;

There is a hospital in my city who actually does advertise that they will take all referred patients regardless of their ability to pay. That is actually their mission. The other hospitals I referenced were basically as you described. Fees were waived for certain situations; some could be ethical, or for various other reasons. They certainly are not set up to routinely waive fees for anyone who asked, and for obvious reasons don't advertise that they do this from time to time.

There probably are not many hospitals who have not at one time or another given a compassionate waiver of fees.