Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #9

[angela]

So after the hospital checked her out, you believe they kept her as an inpatient knowing she meets not only the criteria for brain death but that she's also been declared legally dead? I don't believe that happened.

JMO

I think that is exactly what happened. IMO Jahi is in the hospital because these doctors do not want to be drug through the courts for years by refusing treatment. Malpractice insurance isn't cheap and it is much easier to sue doctors now that it used to be. They are just trying to pacify the family so they are not the next target when this goes south.

 

[Quester]

Anyone know/read if there is/is not a DNR directive on Jahi? TIA

 

[EmmaliLucia]

So good honest question:

Do you think that the family is going to be either sued or downright prosecuted for fraud? And if so, do you think that the law/whoever is going to wait until Jahi's heart stops beating or would they be able to do it now just based on her own instagram evidence of getting brand name bags and shoes and going to Ruth's Chris Steak House and other places?

 

[Philigumbo]

If there is an admitting physician, she would be considered a direct admit. If that's the case, no testing would be done in the ED and, most likely, she bypassed the ED.

 

[al66pine]

Her medical history is that she is brain dead. She was declared brain dead by multiple doctors. There is not a shred of evidence to suggest otherwise.

BBM

Perhaps in a technical sense there is no legally admitted/considered evidence of anything (confirming/supporting brain death or against it) ,
aside from what was publicly released during and after Dec 2013 & Jan 2014 judicial proceedings in CA st and fed ct.

Not trying to argue that Jahi has actually, medically 'improved' in any way since discharge from Oakland hosp.
Since then, her mother has been interviewed on camera and by print & electronic MSM, and said Jahi has improved - following commands, etc.

Re Mom's stmts of her observations of Jahi's improvements
Some ppl w/say mom's stmts over past several months is 'evidence' of Jahi's improvement, no longer being brain dead.
I personally w/say it is information from a very biased source, w no med background and also made while not under oath.
In dissecting Dolan's on-camera stmts, I think he parrots what Mom has reported seeing, not saying he's personally seen the same.

The public now can 'take them for what they're worth' given the source.
A judge or jury in the future can give them the appropriate weight after she's bn put under oath and questioned
and after other parties have an opportunity
1- to cross exam Mom and bring out any inaccuracies, lack of reliability, & bias, re what she says she observed.
2 -to present their medical witnesses and testimony, which they are not now at liberty to reveal.

jjenny, agreeing w you re Jahi's braindeath, not a shred of evidence to suggest otherwise,
at least not from med professional who has examined Jahi or med records about improvement or disputed her braindeath.

JM2cts and I could be wrong. I think I'm through splitting hairs about evidentiary shreds, for the moment anyway.

 

[al66pine]

Anyone know/read if there is/is not a DNR directive on Jahi? TIA

A physician's Do-Not-Resuscitate order re Jahi's braindead remains.

Is that oxymoronic or a thought provoking question? IDK.

If, as reported, Jahi is in an accredited hosp ICU, could be a legit med order. IDK.

 

[Quester]

A physician's Do-Not-Resuscitate order re Jahi's braindead remains.

Is that oxymoronic or a thought provoking question? IDK.

If, as reported, Jahi is in an accredited hosp ICU, could be a legit med order. IDK.

Since all logical bets are off with this family, I thought it was a good question. :spinner:

 

[al66pine]

So good honest question:

Do you think that the family is going to be either sued or downright prosecuted for fraud? And if so, do you think that the law/whoever is going to wait until Jahi's heart stops beating or would they be able to do it now just based on her own instagram evidence of getting brand name bags and shoes and going to Ruth's Chris Steak House and other places?

Let's say
- on the sidewalk, I encounter a panhandler asking for money to buy food for him to eat,
- I hand him a single, a five, a ten, twenty or hundred $,
- he goes into the liquor store to buy rotgot or down the block to his dope dealer,
- uses the $ for purposes other than food,
-has panhandler committed fraud?

If he asks for and receives money like this from 500 ppl, gets $100 from ea and uses something other than food, has he committed fraud?
1000 ppl? 10,000 ppl?

If so, what is the remedy?
Legal system - individual donors suing him in civil fraud action?
(Any private practice atty's ready to file this? Worthwhile - for atty or clients -on hourly rate, flat fee, contingency fee? Doubtful)

County prosecutor bringing criminal fraud charge against him, possibly leading to incarceration?
Prosecutors have limited budget and employees.

An asst prosecutor explained his thoughts about charge-or-no-charge decisions this way.
Yes, there may have been or there was misrepresentation, maybe fraud, but the county can't prosecute everything.
Ppl who gave panhandler $ were not coerced to do so and were not assaulted or injured.

When ppl give $ like this to an individual - a panhandler or Jahi's mom or others at personal funding sites,
Do ppl have a legal basis for expecting/relying on panhandler to buy food to eat, rather than to use for something else?
County budget & staff-power is more wisely used to prosecute -
- an armed robber who knocked a man unconscious in parking lot and ran off w $1000 from his wallet.
- a pair of teen thugs who knocked a little old lady to the ground at an ATM for her $300 withdrawal.
Those two victims suffered physical injury and did not willingly choose to part w the money.


Not saying sidewalk panhandling is a perfect corollary to Jahi's mom's actions.
Hoping not to offend but just repeating someone else's thoughts and reasoning on the subject.
Not saying this would be the thinking of any other prosecutors.

 

[K_Z]

A physician's Do-Not-Resuscitate order re Jahi's braindead remains.

Is that oxymoronic or a thought provoking question? IDK.

If, as reported, Jahi is in an accredited hosp ICU, could be a legit med order. IDK.

Since all logical bets are off with this family, I thought it was a good question. :spinner:

Nowadays, a DNR order contains a lot of detail about what specific measures are requested to be withheld. For example, in a case such as this one, the order "could" be written to read "no CPR, no defibrillation, no cardioversion, no code drugs", or something to that effect. Jahi already has a trach, and is on a vent. Essentially, let the ventilator continue to cycle, but withhold any cardiac resuscitative measures. In a case such as that, the patient dies on the vent, and time of death is listed as confirmation of asystole in several leads.

Early in my career as an ICU nurse, we had a lot of those cases. We couldn't turn off the vent or do much of anything until the resident arrived and pronounced them dead. I had a handful of patients who died a cardiac death on the vent, with the vent still going for many long minutes until the busy resident arrived. I got to learn a lot by watching and documenting the terminal rhythms unfold, as a new nurse, that has helped me for my entire career. But nowadays they have intensivists in the units 24/7/365, so that probably doesn't happen much anymore.

 

[K_Z]

IMO, no one will charge anyone from this family with any kind of fraud, mostly because there actually IS a brain dead teenager being maintained in a hospital. The donations were freely given as gifts. It's up to the donors to decide whether a particular "charity" is worthy of their donations.

Paraphrasing the great Maya Angelou, but when someone shows you exactly "what kind" of person they really are, by their own words and actions, believe them. It's a good rule of thumb, IMO.

 

[K_Z]

If there is an admitting physician, she would be considered a direct admit. If that's the case, no testing would be done in the ED and, most likely, she bypassed the ED.

Oh yeah, totally agree that this was a prearranged direct admit.

JMO, but I think there is a 100% probability that this admission was heavily prearranged and approved by multiple layers of medical, nursing, and administrative staff at St. Peter's ahead of time, and with pleading favors called in by Dr. Paul Byrne.

 

[K_Z]

I don't know what else to say except that I seriously feel like I'm going to be sick.

This poor child! They are basically playing dress-up with her dead body! I can't stand it anymore. :furious:

Yeah, there are some really disturbing pics floating around. Rumors about sunglasses, lipgloss, hairstyles, etc. in addition to the frequent manicure pics.

 

[MyBelle]

I think that is exactly what happened. IMO Jahi is in the hospital because these doctors do not want to be drug through the courts for years by refusing treatment. Malpractice insurance isn't cheap and it is much easier to sue doctors now that it used to be. They are just trying to pacify the family so they are not the next target when this goes south.

Do you really believe a highly esteemed, huge university medical center/teaching hospital with hundreds of professional staff seeing tens of thousands of patients each year will tie up an ICU bed with a dead person to pacify any family? How could they possibly sue them for something they do if she was dead when she arrived? Sorry, I seriously doubt that is happening in this case.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

I can imagine that tests have been performed by the hospital but they are not at liberty to say because of confidentiality. How long would the hospital keep a patient on life support without conducting tests to at least determine whether or not she's improving? It would then be the family's right to reject those results and keep the ventilation going under NJ law if I understand correctly. I think the attorney is just bluffing a bit because it can't be stated by the medical facility that she's had tests, and he's on the payroll.

afaik, doctors and hospitals don't treat anyone for free nor do they keep them there if there is no improvement or hope for improvement. They'll discharge the patient to a nursing home or care facility with ventilators or hospice for continued care. People don't just stay in the hospital bed indefinitely.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

Yeah, there are some really disturbing pics floating around. Rumors about sunglasses, lipgloss, hairstyles, etc. in addition to the frequent manicure pics.

Wow, if that disturbs you I bet my reading stock quotes and articles from the Wall Street Journal everyday to my dad for months when he was on a ventilator and unconscious was over the top, too. The nurses clipped his nails and washed his hair. They turned the channel every day to Peter Jennings. The phone was placed to his ear so he could hear his family speak to him.

I think it pretty normal to spend the long hours at bedside vigils doing things that provide a sense of normalcy as much for ourselves as for the patient. It is very difficult to spend months doing it. I think it is unfair to sling arrows at a child's mother for doing what she thinks is helpful. She has suffered a tremendous loss.

JMO

 

[lawstudent]

When Natasha Richardson was injured, a NY hospital accepted her after she had been declared brain dead, I believe, so that her family could all come say goodbye. Not the exact same situation, obviously, but some hospitals will do it. It of course becomes financially unfeasible pretty quickly, though, so unless it is meant as a charity case due to the religious affiliation, I don't know what to make of it. I do believe it was prearranged and not some sort of trick.

 

[popsicle]

When Natasha Richardson was injured, a NY hospital accepted her after she had been declared brain dead, I believe, so that her family could all come say goodbye. Not the exact same situation, obviously, but some hospitals will do it. It of course becomes financially unfeasible pretty quickly, though, so unless it is meant as a charity case due to the religious affiliation, I don't know what to make of it. I do believe it was prearranged and not some sort of trick.

Yes, you are correct. Liam wanted her friends and family to be able to say good-bye. Also, she was an organ donor.
http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20790247,00.html

 

[MyBelle]

When Natasha Richardson was injured, a NY hospital accepted her after she had been declared brain dead, I believe, so that her family could all come say goodbye. Not the exact same situation, obviously, but some hospitals will do it. It of course becomes financially unfeasible pretty quickly, though, so unless it is meant as a charity case due to the religious affiliation, I don't know what to make of it. I do believe it was prearranged and not some sort of trick.

Did the hospital donate all services? I wasn't aware of that. In fact, I'm not aware of any hospital who will donate free services. Please cite a link. Thanks.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

Yes, you are correct. Liam wanted her friends and family to be able to say good-bye. Also, she was an organ donor.
http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20790247,00.html

Yes and it appears it has no similarity to this case whatsoever. A head injury from a skiing accident really has no similarity to complications from a surgery for a throat disorder, in my humble opinion.

 

[jjenny]

Do you really believe a highly esteemed, huge university medical center/teaching hospital with hundreds of professional staff seeing tens of thousands of patients each year will tie up an ICU bed with a dead person to pacify any family? How could they possibly sue them for something they do if she was dead when she arrived? Sorry, I seriously doubt that is happening in this case.

JMO

What else can someone believe? This child was declared brain dead by multiple doctors. It's not possible to recover from brain death.
So are we supposed to believe that somehow this child was able to recover from brain death, yet no shred of evidence has been provided in support of this idea? You do understand that this would be the first documented case of this happening, and thus major news?