Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #9

[MyBelle]

Her body was in California. And it was flown across country where it was placed in a medi-vac vehicle and driven to this specific hospital. They must have gotten permission to bring her there before leaving California. So no new tests could have been given before she arrived on scene. jmo

BBM. You know this how? I've seen no details about how, when or anything else about transport but it doesn't matter. For all I know, she may have opened her eyes and waved when she arrived. I do not believe a legally dead person is going to be admitted to any hospital ICU anywhere on this planet on nothing more but a mother's wish for a miracle.

JMO

 

[katydid23]

BBM. You know this how? I've seen no details about how, when or anything else about transport but it doesn't matter. For all I know, she may have opened her eyes and waved when she arrived. I do not believe a legally dead person is going to be admitted to any hospital ICU anywhere on this planet on nothing more but a mother's wish for a miracle.

JMO

And yet, Jahi has a current Death Certificate on file in California. And there has been nothing reported about any medical tests done to dispute that diagnosis. Ony her attorney saying that they SHOULD do a retest.

 

[MyBelle]

So you think the ER did brain scans and decided she was not brain dead, before they admitted her?

I have no idea what they did. They may have admitted her based on their visual observations for all I know. Testing can be done as an outpatient and it can be done in an ER.

JMO

 

[katydid23]

BBM. You know this how? I've seen no details about how, when or anything else about transport but it doesn't matter. For all I know, she may have opened her eyes and waved when she arrived. I do not believe a legally dead person is going to be admitted to any hospital ICU anywhere on this planet on nothing more but a mother's wish for a miracle.

JMO

Also, if they had done some testing BEFORE they were admitted in New Jersey, then why would they move the poor girl across country, so far away from her family? If she had tested NOT brain dead, she could have stayed anywhere in California.

 

[MyBelle]

And yet, Jahi has a current Death Certificate on file in California. And there has been nothing reported about any medical tests done to dispute that diagnosis. Ony her attorney saying that they SHOULD do a retest.

You are aware that there are federal laws prohibiting the release of her medical information, right? You certainly have every right to believe the hospital has her in ICU because the abundance of highly trained doctors and nurses charged with her care know she's dead and are hoping for a miracle. I don't believe that is the case.

JMO

 

[katydid23]

You are aware that there are federal laws prohibiting the release of her medical information, right? You certainly have every right to believe the hospital has her in ICU because the abundance of highly trained doctors and nurses charged with her care know she's dead and are hoping for a miracle. I don't believe that is the case.

JMO

That is not what I believe, not even close.

ETA:

I believe that this is why she is at a Catholic hospital:

http://www.catholic-sf.org/ns.php?newsid=8&id=62483

Jahi is a living girl who is not a resurrection. Jahi is the daughter given to her mother by the creator. Yes, it is puzzling to accept that a death certificate was issued on Jahi. Paul A. Byrne, M.D. Oregon, Ohio The writer is president of the Life Guardian Foundation, clinical professor of pediatrics at the University of Toledo, Ohio, and past president of the Catholic Medical Association. His talk on the Jahi McMath case at a United for Life event in San Francisco was featured on Page 6 of the May 9, digital-only issue of Catholic San Francisco, available at http://eedition.catholic-sf.org/Olive/ODE/SFArchdiocese/. - See more at: http://www.catholic-sf.org/ns.php?newsid=8&id=62483#sthash.6ccfhBvN.dpuf

 

[Spangle]

I can't help you see the logic in my post. The link is pretty self-explanatory.

Do you really believe a hospital ICU would admit someone if the admitting physician determined the patient was legally dead? I sure don't. Hospitals are required to meet a standard of care. She's not being cared for at home. ICU care is very expensive and somebody is paying for it.

My opinion is based on my past employment at a Catholic hospital. They don't extend financial charity to dead people. I also don't believe the hospital will publicly reveal the results of medical tests done on the patient because of privacy reasons. The hospital doesn't have to "argue" with anybody to do any testing. And if the mother is saying now she wants to apply for Medicaid, then that tells me those tests may have already been done because the feds don't extend financial charity to dead people, either.

JMO

I think the actual issue is that the NJ law allows the family to have a say in cases like these. All based upon the familys religious beliefs.

Physically, she was alive, her body was being maintained alive. Only by doing the test would they be able to prove she was dead. Those test would not happen until after the hospital received her, then by law, they would have to deal with the families wishes, based upon the religious views.

Remember, the hospital didn't want to release the body, until it transferred the charts and talked to the hospital receiving the body. The family refused to do this. The question is, Did the Catholic Hospital KNOW it was receiving a body, that the State of California all ready legally declared dead, hence the insurance will not pay on a dead body. And then get stuck with a charity case?

 

[MyBelle]

Also, if they had done some testing BEFORE they were admitted in New Jersey, then why would they move the poor girl across country, so far away from her family? If she had tested NOT brain dead, she could have stayed anywhere in California.

I'm not her family. Never met the people. I have no reason why they made their decision but I do respect their decision to make it. Frankly, if I believe a hospital has made mistakes in the care of my loved one, my goal would be to get my loved one as far away as possible. In fact, it has happened to my dad and I did move my dad. I sure have no intention of throwing stones at a family for doing what I have, in fact, done.

JMO

 

[Spangle]

Serious question - I'm curious to know the answer:

If CA-coroner-declared-brain-dead-Jahi in ambulance had just arrived/shown up, unannounced/no prearrangement to the Catholic NJ hospital emergency entrance, would/could the hospital have turned her away? TIA

That is what I want to know. There is no way the hospital would know she was brain dead, until after they checked her out. Or that the CA coroner declared her dead in CA. Of course, with all the media attention, they should.

 

[MyBelle]

I think the actual issue is that the NJ law allows the family to have a say in cases like these. All based upon the familys religious beliefs.

Physically, she was alive, her body was being maintained alive. Only by doing the test would they be able to prove she was dead. Those test would not happen until after the hospital received her, then by law, they would have to deal with the families wishes, based upon the religious views.

Remember, the hospital didn't want to release the body, until it transferred the charts and talked to the hospital receiving the body. The family refused to do this. The question is, Did the Catholic Hospital KNOW it was receiving a body, that the State of California all ready legally declared dead, hence the insurance will not pay on a dead body. And then get stuck with a charity case?

I doubt any hospital is going to admit a patient to an ICU just because the family of the patient has religious beliefs that the patient isn't dead. I just don't see it happening.

I'm pretty sure Saint Peter's knew her medical history prior to her being admitted but I have no proof of course because her medical records are private. And why would Oakland need to talk to a receiving hospital about a dead patient? That doesn't even make sense to me.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

That is what I want to know. There is no way the hospital would know she was brain dead, until after they checked her out. Or that the CA coroner declared her dead in CA. Of course, with all the media attention, they should.

So after the hospital checked her out, you believe they kept her as an inpatient knowing she meets not only the criteria for brain death but that she's also been declared legally dead? I don't believe that happened.

JMO

 

[katydid23]

I'm not her family. Never met the people. I have no reason why they made their decision but I do respect their decision to make it. Frankly, if I believe a hospital has made mistakes in the care of my loved one, my goal would be to get my loved one as far away as possible. In fact, it has happened to my dad and I did move my dad. I sure have no intention of throwing stones at a family for doing what I have, in fact, done.

JMO

I am not throwing stones at them. I am wondering why they would take her clear across the country, when Mom has younger children at home, who need her. And when none of the family could visit Jahi if she is so far away.

If there were tests done showing she was not brain dead, they could have easily stayed in California. There are thousands of medical experts in California. No reason they would have to stay with those who made the 'mistakes.'

 

[MyBelle]

I am not throwing stones at them. I am wondering why they would take her clear across the country, when Mom has younger children at home, who need her. And when none of the family could visit Jahi if she is so far away.

If there were tests done showing she was not brain dead, they could have easily stayed in California. There are thousands of medical experts in California. No reason they would have to stay with those who made the 'mistakes.'

I have no idea of their family situation and who lives where or with whom. It's possible they moved to NJ or are staying with family/friends in NJ. It isn't something that really interests me because there is no indication that there are younger children with needs not being met. When my mom was seriously ill years ago, she was in the hospital for months and my grandmother came to stay with us. Families will ill parents usually find ways to cope such as with grandparents pitching in.

JMO

 

[wendiesan]

I have no idea of their family situation and who lives where or with whom. It's possible they moved to NJ or are staying with family/friends in NJ. It isn't something that really interests me because there is no indication that there are younger children with needs not being met. When my mom was seriously ill years ago, she was in the hospital for months and my grandmother came to stay with us. Families will ill parents usually find ways to cope such as with grandparents pitching in.

JMO

This question came up on a much earlier thread. IIRC, the younger children were being looked after by their grandmother (and likely their grandfather, aunts, and uncles). I will try to find a link to back that up.

 

[MyBelle]

This question came up on a much earlier thread. IIRC, the younger children were being looked after by their grandmother (and likely their grandfather, aunts, and uncles). I will try to find a link to back that up.

Thanks but there is really no need. I think the children are safe, their needs being met and are not in harms way.

 

[katydid23]

My question was not about the family. My question was WHY did they move her all the way across the country?

If there were tests done showing she was not brain dead, they could have easily stayed in California. There are thousands of medical experts in California. So why did they move thousands of miles away?

 

[Donjeta]

If they had ma aged to cure a brain dead person there would be news. Jmo.

Dolan would look like a liar if he gave public statements indicating she has not been retested and she had.

The family has all the right to seek seventh and eighth and ninth opinions so the only reasons for the lawyer to say they have not been done if they have been are that the family has not seen fit to arrange tests, or they have and don't want anybody to know because the results were not right ones.

Faith that Jahi is not braindead is not necessary at all for the hospital people imo since there is a law in NJ that family can decide whether to have braindead people declared dead or not. They may have thought it's right to extend the same charity to Jahi's family even though she has a California death certificate. Also,we have seen that some doctors and other people believe that even though someone is incurably braindead it does not mean that they are dead enough in God's eyes because there is circulation and organ functions and braindead people should not be taken off life support.

Jmo the hospital she's in knew the facts before she arrived and it was prearranged. At least I wouldn't take the risk of taking my ventilator dependent child out of one place of care and cart her across the country if it is not certain that there is a place to receive her

 

[Donjeta]

I think the only basis for admitting Jahi is that physicians did their own tests. No hospital that I know of is going to admit a patient to an ICU based on the possibility a legally dead person might improve because as far as I know, it isn't a possibility ever. I've never met a doctor who believes that a possibility. I sure don't. They discharge patients to hospice care, not the other way around. They do DNR orders on hopeless cases.

The way I interpret his comments is that Dolan has suggested there is a possibility there is a medical reason those tests weren't accurate 8-months ago and that's why he wants her retested. The Catholic Church has accepted brain death determinations as legal death so there must be something more the physicians see with Jahi and that's why they admitted her. They must have repeated the tests. That's the only explanation I can come up with for admitting her.

JMO

There is some terminology confusion here. Legally dead is not a medical diagnosis that says anything about the prognosis of improvement although clinical death and legal status usually coincide. But you can get a mistaken death certificate and wake up at the morgue or be declared legally dead after going missing or just due to clerical error even though you are in good health.

It's being clinically brain dead that you mean here that doctors believe there is no chance for improvement, but that is independent of whether the person has been declared legally dead.

 

[BatWoman]

I can imagine that tests have been performed by the hospital but they are not at liberty to say because of confidentiality. How long would the hospital keep a patient on life support without conducting tests to at least determine whether or not she's improving? It would then be the family's right to reject those results and keep the ventilation going under NJ law if I understand correctly. I think the attorney is just bluffing a bit because it can't be stated by the medical facility that she's had tests, and he's on the payroll.

 

[jjenny]

I doubt any hospital is going to admit a patient to an ICU just because the family of the patient has religious beliefs that the patient isn't dead. I just don't see it happening.

I'm pretty sure Saint Peter's knew her medical history prior to her being admitted but I have no proof of course because her medical records are private. And why would Oakland need to talk to a receiving hospital about a dead patient? That doesn't even make sense to me.

JMO

Her medical history is that she is brain dead. She was declared brain dead by multiple doctors. There is not a shred of evidence to suggest otherwise.